Make Mafia/NK Stronger In Ranked Games

[Aurjay]

I just said this on my post as an after thought, but have made feedback posts in the past of a big way to make evils have an easier time and more fun. Bring back the original rank role list that they changed years ago.

Jailor
TI
TI
TS
TS
TK
TP
RT

GF
Mafioso
RM

NK
NE
NB (survivor & amnesiac)
Any (can even bring in the very rare Vampire game into Ranked which are the most fun)

With the Any, the 2 TS and only 1 RT role (taking 1 Town spot away with a chance of an Any or an Amnesiac picking to be town later but can easily be evils as well for both) definitely evens the playing field and makes the game so much more fun and also so much more fair. Back when that was the role list very seldom would you ever see someone leave day 1 just because they got an evil role, unlike what we see in ranked now (which has died down some since it turned to Steam only, but still happens too frequently.)

[Joacgroso]

I don't really get it. How is reducing the amount of evils supposed to help them?
Even though this would make 8 town slots instead of 9, there would only be 4, maybe 5 players opposed to town. NB roles, especially amnesiacs side most times with town in order not to die. We can't just hope they will always side with evils in order to consider this a buff to them. And the any will be town most times.
Also, the any slot would allow vampires to spawn, which is an awful idea for ranked since it can lead to undeserved wins or losses.

[Aurjay]

There were far more evil wins and a ton more NK wins than currently with that role list, from my personal experience. Survivors were like an NE that town could actually ignore and could count on them to back them up if they sealed the deal with gaining the majority, but the same could be said for evils as well. Amnesiac was an extra townie or an extra evil as they seen fit, also depending on the majorities up to that point. Evils claimed to be NB roles all of the time to buy time instead of the staple claim in a lot of current games of claiming to be Ret and then dying when they don't revive someone. Any could be an extra town role, could be an extra mafia, vampire or even another NK. So there were a lot more "evils" than you are thinking with your initial thought of 1 less RM being removed from the current list.

Vampire games in Ranked were very rare. Vampire wins were even more rare because they had to convert TOWN roles only and could only try to turn someone every other night. It was really hard for them to turn people and win over the other evils. But oh my lord it was so much more fun with that role list. It's why I stood my ground when I said I wasn't spending any more money on the game until they bring it back and I bought stuff frequently before because I loved and supported the game. Now that I am on full disability I have the means to spend even more than I used to, but I wont until they bring the fun back to the game....bringing this role list back to Ranked.

[Joacgroso]

I'm not sure about the stats, since that's just your experience. Maybe town wins more now because of other nerfs/buffs that were implemented, or maybe evils used to win more games in your elo than in others, or maybe you missremembered and they actually won less.
About the NB slot, as far as I know, it used to be just an extra townie if it rolled amnesiac, since town would kill all amnesiacs who didn't remember the first available town role, and amnesiacs had no reason to join the evils and have a way harder time winning. Survivors weren't really like a NE because they didn't cause chaos at all, and they were just killed anyway.
Claiming NB as evil isn't really a good idea since town would either force you to remember or kill you as soon as the real NB cc'ed you.
About the any, it may seem that it provides claimspace, but actually having 3 RTs provides more claimspace than 1 rt and 1 any. It's 3 slots vs 2 slots. And no one would not lynch a player because they could be the any. Even if the any rolled an evil role, it could easily be confirmed by spies or kills, so it wouldn't be reliable claimspace. And there's also the problem with the swing. The any slot could just spawn a second NK, which would be completely unfair for town in a competitive game, where evils just don't vote once they get mayority. Yes, it would benefict evils, but in a boring way.
About vampires, even if they couldn't win they could still ruin the game for townies who were converted at last second and were forced to play an unnwinnable game after they did everything they could to help the team they were now supposed to fight. That's the main problem with them, besides the fact that they encourage gamethrowing from town.

[Brilliand]

And the any will be town most times.

Though the % chance the Any will be evil is probably higher than evil's current win percentage.

[kyuss420]

And the any will be town most times.

Though the % chance the Any will be evil is probably higher than evil's current win percentage.

needs more Ret

[wozearly]

I'm not sure about the stats, since that's just your experience. Maybe town wins more now because of other nerfs/buffs that were implemented, or maybe evils used to win more games in your elo than in others, or maybe you missremembered and they actually won less.
About the NB slot, as far as I know, it used to be just an extra townie if it rolled amnesiac, since town would kill all amnesiacs who didn't remember the first available town role, and amnesiacs had no reason to join the evils and have a way harder time winning. Survivors weren't really like a NE because they didn't cause chaos at all, and they were just killed anyway.
Claiming NB as evil isn't really a good idea since town would either force you to remember or kill you as soon as the real NB cc'ed you.
About the any, it may seem that it provides claimspace, but actually having 3 RTs provides more claimspace than 1 rt and 1 any. It's 3 slots vs 2 slots. And no one would not lynch a player because they could be the any. Even if the any rolled an evil role, it could easily be confirmed by spies or kills, so it wouldn't be reliable claimspace. And there's also the problem with the swing. The any slot could just spawn a second NK, which would be completely unfair for town in a competitive game, where evils just don't vote once they get mayority. Yes, it would benefict evils, but in a boring way.
About vampires, even if they couldn't win they could still ruin the game for townies who were converted at last second and were forced to play an unnwinnable game after they did everything they could to help the team they were now supposed to fight. That's the main problem with them, besides the fact that they encourage gamethrowing from town.

Based on the stats shared by BMG during the early move to Seasons, the combination of the new Ranked rolelist and changes to roles decreased the number of Town wins on average, across all Elo tiers. In practice, at higher ELO, Town's winrate remained solidly dominant under both situations - metastrategies based on Town's typically high confirmability were a key part to that. The main impact on reducing Town's winrate was the introduction of a permanent 4th Mafia which boosted Mafia winrates at the expense of Town and the Neutrals.

On paper, the new roleset is an improvement for balance. In practice, there are things we gained from it and things that we lost on the way. For the crusaders against swingyness, the new roleset was a gift...but as a game, the new Ranked roleset is significantly more predictable and stale. While not a 'bad' roleset, I always found the new one less enjoyable - and it explains the enduring popularity of people calling for the old list, or NB, or Any to return to Ranked.

I accept there are valid arguments against all both NB and Any, and some of it is about individual preferences, but just to throw into the mix...

1) Amne/Surv being Town-sided was largely a reflection of Town's over-dominant winrate and Amne's announced remembering. It wasn't worth the risk for Amne's to wait a round or two to see which way the wind was blowing if 80% of the time remembering Town gave a win, and if Town knew full well if the Amne was lying about their remembered role or not. In the face of a PoE-focused town the only practical route for a Survivor was to be honest and then try to out more important targets for the Town to remove. With NB as a guaranteed role, Town would typically be okay with early open NB claims, as claiming NB was a pretty rubbish option for Mafia and NK unless they had nothing else to reach for - and revealing as NB helped Town more than the evils.

With better balance between Town/Evil wins, with NB as a less credible claim (e.g. it could only spawn from Any or Random Neutral), and Amne's not having to announce to the world that they'd betrayed everyone, there's no reason to believe it would play out in the same way it did before.

2) 3x RT is better for claimspace than Any + RT; no-one ever said the old rolelist was perfect. However, Any + 2xRT was something that was requested when the old rolelist was live, to be achieved by sacrificing one of the 2 guaranteed TS slots. That would have a functionally similar effect on claimspace, while also having the benefits (and drawbacks) of the Any role.

3) The main objections to Any typically center around double NK (specifically double SK) and Vampires. Town and Mafia didn't beat those setups quite comfortably in ye olden days, they're not death sentences for non-neutrals.

4) Vampire faction switching adds complexity, and some people despise it for the wins they thought they 'deserved' that the Vampires won from them. What Vamps brought beyond doubt was the fact that Town had to keep one eye on its "confirmed" members. Townies who felt they deserved a win for defeating the Mafia despite not noticing the Transporter was no longer Transporting, the Jailor was no longer jailing, the Escort was no longer roleblocking, etc. never deserved a win at all. The less Town can be sure it knows, and the more uncertainty it faces, the better for balance.

5) Double NKs transform the dynamics of a game and yes, typically, Town loses out in that mix. In a single game, that's quite swingy. Over the course of a season's worth of games, it'll balance out to the point where people who play enough will face off against the horror of / benefit from the opportunity of double NK games to a similar extent. The benefit it brings in variety, and again, in forcing Town to cope with situations where they can't fully predict the rolelist in advance, is good both for replayability and balance.

6) The risk of double Jester and double Exe could occasionally remind Town why hubris and over-reliance on PoE was a bad thing...