Remove the god forsaken trial system

[Villagerlover]

How about no.
I'd rather have a system to deal with it than to not have one at all. Your title is just flat out dumb.

Everyone has to deal with gamethrowers, you're not alone. But reports are not worthless!
Yes, the reporting system is just slow sometimes. Real humans who need breaks and time to themselves are the ones handling your reports, not a robot. You should consider that they're being handled by volunteer staff as well.

Just be patient...

[Koleszar]

As blunt as this may sound, but it's the truth. Trial System isn't curated to fit what you personally care about and don't care about.

Goodbye.

Same here, I don't care if someome made me a "Fine Black Gentleman" or "idiot" or said to me to go kill myself. First of all it's a game, and it's a roleplay game, so noone should get offended by the racist names or racist words or some curses...like c'mon, as someone said, if you care more about words, go play VR and talk to other dudes, not here. The Trial System should be only for gamethrowers and bugs and so on, not for offended kids who are grounded for saying curses.

[SpiritWolfLord]

The problem is less to do with the trial system (though I do think it needs improvement), but more to do with the current rules. Before it was p2p, people could make fake accounts, so the rules were a bit more strict. But people getting banned were banned for reasonable reasons. Now that it is p2p, the devs don't want to ban as few people as possible. Judges can't guilty an obvious gamethrower because they don't admit to it. Same with leavers, including people who leave EVERY time they get mafia and ONlY when they get mafia. By using common sense, you can tell that it was on purpose, but since you can't actually prove it, you aren't allowed to guilty. That's why no one does gamethrowing reports, because the rules just aren't there for it. While I do admit some of the supposed throwers are likely just dumb, many of the obvious ones are technically still abiding by the rules. The rules really need a major overhaul.

[kyuss420]

well I just spent an hour wading through gamethrowing reports, 11 innoed and 1 guiltied. As I said before, maybe if people stopped hitting ''report'' every time they got salty cos someone made a dumb play, I might have found 12 guilty reports, and justice would be dealt to people faster. Instead we have to waste our efforts wading through a ton of salt.

Funniest of them was a game in which 3 people from opposite factions were whispering each other and killing off people without the theme name,(SK, maf and Lookout) the report was on the 4th player with the theme name who was solo medusa and claimed survivor and wasnt whispered to by any of the other 3.

Another, even had the description ''made the play that made town go from 50/50 chance of winning to 0 chance of winning''. 2 maf and 3 town voted up the guy. He was reported for guiltying the guy with maf. Sure it was a dumb move that lost the game, but its not a gamethrow

[ChemicalKing]

I have to agree. So many decent players get permabanned because of this nonsense policy. You are spot on with your opinion about "harassment".

The real problem in games is gamethrowers. These are the people who should be permabanned. A permaban should not even exist for any other offense, no matter how many offenses there are.

[SantanaTheSmall]

I have to agree. So many decent players get permabanned because of this nonsense policy. You are spot on with your opinion about "harassment".

The real problem in games is gamethrowers. These are the people who should be permabanned. A permaban should not even exist for any other offense, no matter how many offenses there are.

While I agree that gamethrowing is the worst, I think telling someone to kill themselves is just as bad.

I personally don’t care about nasty speech as much as others here, but there is a clear line and that crosses it.

[Shyyster]

I have to agree. So many decent players get permabanned because of this nonsense policy. You are spot on with your opinion about "harassment".

The real problem in games is gamethrowers. These are the people who should be permabanned. A permaban should not even exist for any other offense, no matter how many offenses there are.

You have 3 guilty HS/H reports of you calling people fag/faggots.

1 guilty HS/H report for the same reason and telling others to slit their throats.

You're exactly the type of player why permabans should exist for. No idea how you even got 4 chances while using homophobic slurs since using them lands people a permaban on their first punishment.

[ChemicalKing]

Yes, those are all false as they don't fall under HS or H at all. Either that or BMG classifies that incorrectly.

Those other players should have easily been banned along with me or on their own as their offenses actually affected the gameplay, and if my behavior was bad theirs was similar.

No, I'm not. My so-called offenses have absolutely nothing to do with and have little effect on the game, if any. I got 4 chances because it wasn't hate speech. Hence why the trial system is terrible.

Nice job skewing the conversation to talk about me though. Adding absolutely nothing and going completely off topic. You completely failed to address anything valid or making a cogent point. How nice for you.

[Shyyster]

Yes, those are all false as they don't fall under HS or H at all. Either that or BMG classifies that incorrectly.

LOL, if those reports were false then you wouldn't had earned a single suspension in the first place and they actually do follow under the 2nd rule of HS/H which is "Offensive Language"

ToS Rules

Hate Speech/Harassment (aka HS/H)

This is the most serious offense in ToS and can warrant a direct permaban. This category can really be broken down into 3 parts: Attacks on a person, offensive language, and other
.
1.Attacks/threats on a person or place.
2.Offensive Language<-the rule of HS/H you broke.
3.Other
a."Money shaming" / skin shaming: targeting someone because of their cosmetics.
b.Posting personal information (including addresses, phone numbers, emails).
c.Inciting false reports against another player.
d.Posting links of any kind.

Offensive Language

a. Racism / country shaming / language shaming, religious intolerance, intolerance to sexual orientations (homophobia, transphobia, etc.), sexism, and general bigotry.
b. Evading the hard filter, especially to say a slur
b1.See filtered list created by Shelboo: Shelboo's tested list.
b2.One time use of hard-filtered words is a suspension, but continued use will result in a permanent ban. Except in names. See IU.
c.Repeatedly and blatantly evading the soft filter.
c1.If you think a word is filtered, it probably is.
d.References/chat that mocks tragedies such as terrorist attacks, mass shootings, or any event where multiple people died.
e.References to crimes against children (pedophilia[permaban], child beating, child slavery, etc.).
f.Inappropriate sexual chat during the game, including in whispers.

Those other players should have easily been banned along with me or on their own as their offenses actually affected the gameplay, and if my behavior was bad theirs was similar.

Playing badly will never get people banned, and how stupid would it be for a game company to ban bad players? That just asking for nobody to play your game.

No, I'm not. My so-called offenses have absolutely nothing to do with and have little effect on the game, if any. I got 4 chances because it wasn't hate speech. Hence why the trial system is terrible.

No idea why you got 4 chances with how you acted in your games. Maybe Judges were being lenient and thought you would learn your lesson after a suspension to cut out your toxic behavior. Look like they were wrong though.

Nice job skewing the conversation to talk about me though. Adding absolutely nothing and going completely off topic. You completely failed to address anything valid or making a cogent point. How nice for you.

If you looked through this thread, I already added more than enough to the conversation. I just commented because I found it hilarious that someone who is permabanned for 4 guilty HS/H would comment on this when you're a perfect case example of why HS/H is punished in this community, with you throwing homophobic slurs and telling others to slit their throats.

[ChemicalKing]

Not true. The way the trial system works is the jurors can vote anyway they want for any reason, but that wasn’t what I was saying anyway. “Offensive language” isn’t harassment. If you want to say it qualifies as “hate speech”, fine I guess, but the point of this thread is that speech doesn’t affect the game at all.

So you’d rather they ban all the good players who suffer and get frustrated from the sheer amount of bad players there are ruining games? I’m not saying ban bad players simply for being bad, but when you bad good players for simplistic reasons that will leave the game with a smaller player base and hurt new players’ experiences.

It’s almost like you just completely ignored my point here. Why I’m even engaging you when you show only the slightest bit of intrigue is beyond me, but your points are just as valid as anyone else’s. I got more chances because it was clear that my behavior wasn’t toxic and I was in a game with exceptionally terrible people guilty of their own offenses. The only reason I have a ban now is because of the terrible 4 strike rule. I have played hundreds, if not thousands, of games. I have maybe somewhere between 7 and 8 reports.

Nobody cares you what you find hilarious. Provide something worthwhile or stop talking. Nobody cares what you think is a perfect example of anything. Use reasoning and logic in your posts, not emotion. I can’t believe I need to tell you how to be taken seriously, but here we are. HS/H should be punished I agree with you. But only when it’s actually valid and never with a permaban. This is the discussion we’re having. Join it and stop acting like you have no idea what words are.

[Shyyster]

Not true. The way the trial system works is the jurors can vote anyway they want for any reason, but that wasn’t what I was saying anyway.

Yeah that's true, but even if jurors voted however they wanted still need to be a clear majority to push reports up to Judges who will have final say on whether a report is guilty or not.

“Offensive language” isn’t harassment. If you want to say it qualifies as “hate speech”, fine I guess, but the point of this thread is that speech doesn’t affect the game at all.

Speech that doesn't affect the game, like calling someone dumb, retard(once or twice), stupid, bad, and other minor words doesn't get punished.

Speech such as yours and what I listed in the rules always affect the gameplay and players, which result in punishment.

So you’d rather they ban all the good players who suffer and get frustrated from the sheer amount of bad players there are ruining games?

If they're going around calling other players homophobic slurs and telling them to kill themselves? YES!

Like I really don't understand people like yourself point of view when it comes to this kind of conversation. Do you see NBA/NFL/Hockey players going around calling each other fags,Fine Black Gentleman, and telling another player to kill themselves? Hell no, so why do you think people that play an online game should get a free pass to be as toxic as they want?

I got more chances because it was clear that my behavior wasn’t toxic and I was in a game with exceptionally terrible people guilty of their own offenses. The only reason I have a ban now is because of the terrible 4 strike rule. I have played hundreds, if not thousands, of games. I have maybe somewhere between 7 and 8 reports.

Lol'd, you have no idea why you gotten 4 chances just like I have no idea. To say your behavior wasn't toxic is utter nonsense since jurors and Judges judged your reports as GUILTY and deserving of a punishment.

You have played 336 games and gotten reported 14 times(12 HS/H reports,1 leaving, and 1 gamethrowing report).

Nobody cares you what you find hilarious. Provide something worthwhile or stop talking. Nobody cares what you think is a perfect example of anything. Use reasoning and logic in your posts, not emotion.

I used reasoning and logic??? Pointing out you received 4 HS/H punishments for using clear toxic behavior that resulted in the gameplay being affected and how HS/H punishments are deserving.

HS/H should be punished I agree with you. But only when it’s actually valid and never with a permaban. This is the discussion we’re having. Join it and stop acting like you have no idea what words are.

Please give me examples of valid HS/H then. Anyone would say that calling other people fags and telling other players to slit their throats is valid reasons for punishing someone for HS/H.

And naa this not really a discussion, just you making excuses.

[ChemicalKing]

That is true, but that's still only a handful of people deciding the fate of one report. Not exactly the biggest mandate.

No. You don't get to have it both ways. Either all speech does not effect the game or none of it does. Speech is speech; words only hurt you if you let them.

You are putting speech above actions right now. This game usually matches you up with the same players maybe once every couple of weeks, I'd rather continuously get someone who says a few words that at the end of the day really don't mean anything because we don't know each other personally than someone who consistently ruins others' chances of winning and the overall spirit of the game.

I don't understand your point of view when it comes to this conversation. You actually admitted to mocking the entire thing. No, actually you see real athletes going around murdering and raping and facing real penalties for it. You don't hear about athletes saying things like these because it does not actually matter, it does not actually hurt anyone and takes spotlight away from people who are doing real harm. Your definition of toxic clearly needs some work and you should work on your rhetorical questions too because you assumed the wrong answer.

I have a better idea than you. You act like pulling up a persons' profile means anything whatsoever, I'm really not sure why you pulled mine, it seems like you just wanted to rant about something and chose me for no reason, plenty of other people have commented. No, it isn't utter nonsense, my play style isn't toxic, "jurors" and "judges" don't really deserve those names because there is no trial here. Neither side really gets to present a case. In all honesty, a player may have no idea that they were even reported until they get a suspension or ban notice. You could go weeks without even being affected by it. Okay, not sure why you posted that statistic but let's address it. Of those 14, only 4 were found guilty (erroneously or otherwise). Some of those were even all from the same game. The leaving and gamethrowing ones are invalid, or barely valid at best. I don't gamethrow, that one was obviously a lie which is why it wasn't found guilty.

Okay, you're right. What I meant to say was use only reasoning and logic. You let some emotion slip in there. Again, not toxic behavior (really beating a dead horse here), again did not affect the game at all (you have not even tried to illustrate how this is the case), and I already agreed that some HS/H reports are deserving but people in this community get the definitions of those terms laughably wrong.

Valid harassment is going after someone every single time you are in a game with them, whether that be to kill them or what have you. Hate speech is terms that are unambiguously targeting a group (i.e. the n word). "Fag" does not qualify because it isn't always used to refer to gay people. You can tell it isn't being used that way here because of the context. First, I'm gay myself (not that we can't be homophobic, but just thought I'd share), and, second, this game has nothing to do with sexuality. There is absolutely no way for me to know what someone's sexual orientation is and there is no reason for me to know because it does not matter. What evidence would I be using to call them gay? Nothing, it's a preposterous notion. Not anyone, you and a few other people at least, but not just anyone.

You also don't know what the word "excuses" means. There is no such thing as an "excuse" when it comes to actions. You are excused from meetings, not actions. You also don't know what a discussion is. Maybe study up on these before trying to use them. This is a discussion. A discussion is when two parties (i.e. me and you) exchange ideas. I hate to break it to you, but, yeah, that's happening here.

[Flavorable]

What evidence would I be using to call them gay? Nothing, it's a preposterous notion.

You're not calling them gay, you're calling them an extremely hateful slur. It might not hurt YOU, but it hurts other people. And contrary to what you obviously believe: The things that are so hateful to other people in REAL life are much more important to be punished than people stepping on your toes in a GAME, causing you to lose.
And what Shyyster is pointing is, is the absolute ridiculousness that you really think anyone should agree that it's okay to tell people a horrible slur and that they should kill themselves, just because they ruined your game.

I doubt you really think that the Devs should worry more about someone stepping on your toes, than they should about actual problems. Cause if you do, you're downright delusional.
----------------------

Now as for the topic at hand: Would removing hatespeech/harassment reports change anything for gamethrowing reports? No.
People will still file invalid reports. People will still basically want everyone banned until they're left with like 15-30 people they actually like. People will still complain about gamethrowing. Why? Cause that's what people do. We can't win? We blame it on someone else, whether righteously or not. We can't win? Blame it on that kid that has like 100 games and doesn't really know what he's doing yet. E.t.c.

The only improvement Trial System needs in this regard, is the ability to suspend people if they keep filing reports like "was LO but wasn't on Jailor" or "Was Vigi and shot me for no reason". Cause whether you like it or not, THAT's the real problem here.

[kyuss420]

The only improvement Trial System needs in this regard, is the ability to suspend people if they keep filing reports like "was LO but wasn't on Jailor" or "Was Vigi and shot me for no reason". Cause whether you like it or not, THAT's the real problem here.

As Ive been saying, this is the biggest problem with gamethrow reports in trial system. Description may as well say ''He didnt play the way I wanted him to'' If people want actual gamethrowers to get suspended/banned, they should take a second to think before they hit that report button to report on time wasting bullcrap. But no, they want people banned for making bad plays, or for getting them killed, or for just being a bad player in general, which isnt going to happen, no matter how many times theyre reported

[Goldenhawk17]

Unfortunately, once one player says "im reporting .... for game throwing" so many others jump on the same boat and something that was a bad play or a mistake by a player ends up being a useless game throwing report that jurors and judges have to wade through to deal with real reports. This is partly why I hate the current system and the requirement for a specific number of reports to result in an official report.

[MysticMismagius]

There’s two big, BIG problems with suspending people who make wrong reports though.

1) The P2P Trial rulebook is not shown anywhere in-game (or even mentioned for that matter), and the rules displayed in-game are very different. Someone could quickly get banned for filing wrong reports because they’re reporting based on the rules that they see. They genuinely would not know what they did wrong, and would have no reason to know the “right” way to report unless they went out of their way to find the latest Trial rulebook.

2) Even if people do know what the rules are, punishing people for getting it wrong would greatly discourage people from filing reports. People would think “This might get inno’d and then I’ll be the one who gets punished.” If most people aren’t brave enough to risk getting suspended or banned for a report that goes sour (which is apparently the point, to make people “take a second to think twice”), then no one will report anyone and Town of Salem will become a lawless wasteland. Remember; the Trial System relies on people reporting, so it’s not very prudent to make a rule that discourages reports so heavily.

Personally I know that if this were to happen I be one of the people who nearly stops reporting entirely, ESPECIALLY for GT or Cheating. I have little faith that those reports will get guiltied, so I would never in my right mind bet my account on it happening.

[nyanisty]

What evidence would I be using to call them gay? Nothing, it's a preposterous notion.

And contrary to what you obviously believe: The things that are so hateful to other people in REAL life are much more important to be punished than people stepping on your toes in a GAME, causing you to lose.

Cyber-bullying and cyber-harassment is a joke, in all honesty, especially when talking about the internet. It's literally the last place to complain when there are options to mute, block, or you know stay off the internet.

[MysticMismagius]

What evidence would I be using to call them gay? Nothing, it's a preposterous notion.

And contrary to what you obviously believe: The things that are so hateful to other people in REAL life are much more important to be punished than people stepping on your toes in a GAME, causing you to lose.

Cyber-bullying and cyber-harassment is a joke, in all honesty, especially when talking about the internet. It's literally the last place to complain when there are options to mute, block, or you know stay off the internet.

That only drives away the people who actually want to play. BMG would go down in flames if they told people who were being harassed to either suck it up or leave.

[Brilliand]

What evidence would I be using to call them gay? Nothing, it's a preposterous notion.

And contrary to what you obviously believe: The things that are so hateful to other people in REAL life are much more important to be punished than people stepping on your toes in a GAME, causing you to lose.

Cyber-bullying and cyber-harassment is a joke, in all honesty, especially when talking about the internet. It's literally the last place to complain when there are options to mute, block, or you know stay off the internet.

That only drives away the people who actually want to play. BMG would go down in flames if they told people who were being harassed to either suck it up or leave.

While a valid point, I'm not sure that's quite relevant to what nyanisty and Flavorable are disagreeing about. "What BMG practically needs to prevent" and "What is harmful and needs to be punished" are two separate matters.

[MysticMismagius]

What evidence would I be using to call them gay? Nothing, it's a preposterous notion.

And contrary to what you obviously believe: The things that are so hateful to other people in REAL life are much more important to be punished than people stepping on your toes in a GAME, causing you to lose.

Cyber-bullying and cyber-harassment is a joke, in all honesty, especially when talking about the internet. It's literally the last place to complain when there are options to mute, block, or you know stay off the internet.

That only drives away the people who actually want to play. BMG would go down in flames if they told people who were being harassed to either suck it up or leave.

While a valid point, I'm not sure that's quite relevant to what nyanisty and Flavorable are disagreeing about. "What BMG practically needs to prevent" and "What is harmful and needs to be punished" are two separate matters.

What BMG needs to prevent and what needs to be punished are the same matter or at least go hand-in-hand. Since you can't directly control what people say, you can't prevent harassment without punishing it harshly enough to be a deterrent. And BMG needs to prevent harassment so people don't take nyanisty's words to heart and leave. Hence why it's punished more severely than gamethrowing.

[nyanisty]

To be clear, I was NOT proposing that HS should be entirely ignored or what BMG should do, I was responding to the real life comparison to what Flavorable was comparing it to which I obv felt it was a horrible comparison.

[Sonicle]

Phew! That was quite the fun 2 hours spent carefully reading this entire thread! Thank you, Shyyster, for all your hard work here! Putting clowns like ChemicalKing and LeGr8stMeme in their place with your wit, logic, and sass was truly fun to see! I love it when trolls and delusional jerks are rightfully trashed. Thank you for putting up with them and never giving up the good fight!

Otherway around, they were mostly right, but continue to cry about humanity while we prefer to play throw-free games.

[Sonicle]

I never said they should allow it. But, by all means, keep throwing insults at everyone in this thread that doesn't agree with you.

Look, Mr. Troll, I don't like game-throwers, either. Ruining games sucks. But, at the end of the day...it's a game. It's a stupid. Meaningless. GAME. Whether you win or lose makes no difference. But, what DOES matter is trying to have fun and enjoy yourself while you do it. I don't see any money lining your pockets by winning games. I don't see you getting any actual real life rewards for playing well.

This is such a laughable troll and you have the audacity to call me a troll. Clearly you have a subjective standpoint on what "fun" is...

[Sonicle]

Bruh

"My head is so far up my ass that I cant understand your viewpoint". Coming from the person that throwing insults at everyone with a different viewpoint. You are beyond hypocritical and it's not even funny anymore. I'm not going to be baited by a troll like you and if this were reddit you would probably be at like -50 upvotes for your shitty troll that nobody needs to see. There is a reason why forums are dying due to bigotted trolls like you.

[MysticMismagius]

Will you people stop bitching about whether GT or Harassment is more important? They're both things that need to be dealt with. This whole "Harassment is a joke!" "Throwing is just a game!" nonsense helps no one.