Ret’s WAR is way too high

[Brilliand]

Agreed. Proportional winrates SUCK. Every team should be equal, or as close to. What people want is effectively for this game to be a puzzle game for the Town alone, and every other role is an obstacle, NOT for it to be a game about getting your faction/role to win.

This would be pretty fun, if we could manage to replace the evils with credible bots and make it a single-player game.

But yeah, the evils need a fair chance to win if they're going to be human players.

[SantanaTheSmall]

It’d also help with leavers a bit of the winrates were more fair.

[Chemist1422]

lol imagine saying that mafia wasn’t designed for equal village/scum winrates and expecting for people to take you seriously

[SantanaTheSmall]

I never said that. I said I could possibly accept that argument as to how the system stands right now.

Stop derailing for the LULs

[Chemist1422]

I never said that. I said I could possibly accept that argument as to how the system stands right now.

Stop derailing for the LULs

I’m not derailing, I’m agreeing with a previously given argument

[SantanaTheSmall]

I never said that. I said I could possibly accept that argument as to how the system stands right now.

Stop derailing for the LULs

I’m not derailing, I’m agreeing with a previously given argument

I’d ask you what it is, but I know you’ll just post the quote again.

[Chemist1422]

I never said that. I said I could possibly accept that argument as to how the system stands right now.

Stop derailing for the LULs

I’m not derailing, I’m agreeing with a previously given argument

I’d ask you what it is, but I know you’ll just post the quote again.

Yeah, it’s the one I quoted

No need to get so aggressive

[SantanaTheSmall]

But who said proportional winrates was a “good thing”?

[Chemist1422]

But who said proportional winrates was a “good thing”?

Saying the NK should win 7-8% of games sounds like advocating for proportional winrates to me

[SantanaTheSmall]

But no one has actually agreed with a 7-8% winrate for the NK.

[Brilliand]

They don't want it to be balanced, hence the ELO loss/gain is different

The causality is the other way around. If the winrates are inequal, then ELO gain/loss should reflect that. It's a way to reduce the harm of the winrates being inequal, and it will always be needed because the winrates are never going to be exactly equal.

ELO gain/loss is based on the actual winrates, not on what the devs want the winrates to be.

[Brilliand]

The most interesting statistic your report actually provides is that even without Ret, town still wins 6 in 10 games. Ideally, that would be 5 in 10 at most.

There's an argument for the winrate of each faction being proportional to the size of that faction. So:
9/15=60% winrate for town
4/15=27% winrate for mafia (adjust to 32% if we consider the NE to be "pro-evil")
1/15=7% winrate for NK (adjust to 8% if we consider the NE to be "pro-evil")

It would help if you explained why you were quoting things.

[SantanaTheSmall]

I don’t think Brilliand agreed with proportional winrates, but merely stated that that is what the paradigm is, which I accepted to be true as well.

[Veeena]

Moderator Message: Rule 7 my boys. Let's relax on that please.

"Repeating what someone else has said. (This includes posting just exact quotes without addressing the quote with a response."

I am not going to remove it as it pertains (somewhat) to portions of the topic, but after this post, I advise to stop doing it.

[MysticMismagius]

Gonta not smart boy but... he think this not many games...

It's not enough to make any definitive statements about Town's/Ret's winrate, but it is enough to get a glimpse at it. It's like if a near-sighted person tried to look at a painting without any visual aids. They wouldn't be able to see the details in the painting, but they would be able to see the large groups of colors that make up the composition. This is what we are looking at. There's a significant margin of error for how accurate OP's data is and what it means, but outside of a major fluke or lurking variable that OP didn't catch, it's enough to say that town's winrate increases substantially when a Retributionist pulls off their revive.

[SantanaTheSmall]

Gonta not smart boy but... he think this not many games...

It's not enough to make any definitive statements about Town's/Ret's winrate, but it is enough to get a glimpse at it. It's like if a near-sighted person tried to look at a painting without any visual aids. They wouldn't be able to see the details in the painting, but they would be able to see the large groups of colors that make up the composition. This is what we are looking at. There's a significant margin of error for how accurate OP's data is and what it means, but outside of a major fluke or lurking variable that OP didn't catch, it's enough to say that town's winrate increases substantially when a Retributionist pulls off their revive.

You summed it up nicely, than, you.

I have kept going with this. Nothing has changed but I’m still not at 200 games yet.

[SantanaTheSmall]

100 games is, assuming each game is 5 minutes, 500 minutes, or 8 hours 20 minutes of pure game time - and this doesn't count the data thrown out.

Shut the fuck up about the number of games. We don't even need this thread to prove Ret is unbalanced, it confirms all mediums which are one of the best fakeclaims for scum. This is proof of our point. You want a "proper" scientific survey go and make one yourself.

It’s good to have hard data to back up what we already know, moron. I also didn’t throw any data out, so you seem to be unable to read, too.

Why are you in this forum? To be a dick?

Also, what games are you playing where they only last 5 minutes? That’s only like 2 days and nights.

[ICECLIMBERS]

[SantanaTheSmall]

100 games is, assuming each game is 5 minutes, 500 minutes, or 8 hours 20 minutes of pure game time - and this doesn't count the data thrown out.

Shut the fuck up about the number of games. We don't even need this thread to prove Ret is unbalanced, it confirms all mediums which are one of the best fakeclaims for scum. This is proof of our point. You want a "proper" scientific survey go and make one yourself.

It’s good to have hard data to back up what we already know, moron. I also didn’t throw any data out, so you seem to be unable to read, too.

Why are you in this forum? To be a dick?

Also, what games are you playing where they only last 5 minutes? That’s only like 2 days and nights.

I’m defending this thread from the countless people who are attacking you for “faulty experiment”, asswipe. You threw out the faulty data where a player left midgame, so you seem to be incapable of basic recollection of facts. (As you should have, but since you didn’t leave you played through that game with no benefit to your research fucktard.)

At this point yes, I only exist on this forum to be an elitist dick. I don’t care about this game but I can clap back when I need to.

However long the games were, add 1h40m for every 1 minute. (8h20m for every 5) I’m defending you.

Well I apologize for my comment then. However, this is why context is important. You’ve already been told that earlier in this thread. Every time you commented immediately after me without quoting something or without explaining your quote, it looked and felt like an attack on me.

[SantanaTheSmall]

Gonta not smart boy but... he think this not many games...

It's not enough to make any definitive statements about Town's/Ret's winrate, but it is enough to get a glimpse at it. It's like if a near-sighted person tried to look at a painting without any visual aids. They wouldn't be able to see the details in the painting, but they would be able to see the large groups of colors that make up the composition. This is what we are looking at. There's a significant margin of error for how accurate OP's data is and what it means, but outside of a major fluke or lurking variable that OP didn't catch, it's enough to say that town's winrate increases substantially when a Retributionist pulls off their revive.

Gonta agree! Gonta not necessarily agree that OP sample data allude to Retributionist being absurdly overpowered though

It alludes to it. It just doesn’t confirm it. Of course it alludes to it. If you really think it doesn’t allude to it, I’d even make a one sided bet: if the numbers don’t change more than +- 5% when I reach the number of games with a MoE below 5%, I’d pay for your Coven and Premium if you don’t already have it. You don’t have to bet anything when you lose.

[Brilliand]

Gonta agree! Gonta not necessarily agree that OP sample data allude to Retributionist being absurdly overpowered though

Even a sample size of one would "allude" to (whatever that one game makes it look like). You can argue that his sample size isn't strong enough, but not that it does nothing.

[SantanaTheSmall]

Just seeing how these ret games have played out, I honestly don’t think the numbers will change that much. The difference between no ret and ret can be the difference between a perfect maf win (locking the vote 4 to 4 and picking off the rest one at a time) and losing all 4 maf in 2 days and nights after the revive because it’s 5 v 4 with a jailor revived.

When you say there will be a difference of +- 5%, do you mean 5% of both factions, giving a total of a 10% gap close or just 2.5% of each faction? I meant the former, not the latter. I’m not willing to bet that a faction will not change more than 2.5%

[OBeauPeep]

Nobody genuinely wants this.

You do not speak for everyone.

[MysticMismagius]

Nobody genuinely wants this.

You do not speak for everyone.

I can assure you that I do.

No you don't. Anyone who claims to speak for everyone is being dishonest.

[SantanaTheSmall]

I think maf’s winrate is just fine (if it’s not a ret game). It’s town’s winrate that’s too high and NK’s that’s too low. How do you fix that?

Well first, take away ret because 60% is already too high and it doesn’t need to be higher. Regardless of the number of games I have, you seriously cannot state that ret doesn’t at least moderately increase town’s winrate. Nobody will take you seriously if you do state that.

But then I suppose the answer is to buff NK instead of nerf town any further because the buffed NK will take away win rates from both factions, but I suspect it will take away winrates from Town more than maf, but maybe not?