TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Unfortunately, it's an outspoken minority on these forums who are against change. Jailor meta is very toxic to newer players as it forces them to play only one way. In Ranked Practice there's a lot of toxicity when someone posts a will as a LO, Esc, Spy, Doc etc and they weren't on Jailor, and you get 4-5 town members hassling the person for not being on Jailor. And then that player gets voted up and force lynched by the stubborn Jailor, even if its obvious as day that that player is a Town member.
Jailor meta could have been fixed ages ago. There's like 2-3 roles that could be added to the game that would count Jailor - Auditor, Evil Constable, Mafia Jailor.
Or Jailor could just be nerfed as well. Starting the game at Night 1 would slightly do that
As someone on the forums I've been always trying to discuss changes which would "benefit" the game, I generally think the games in a bit of a rough spot due to certain roles, a lot of people actually agree, more the solutions to what should be done are more of a discussion.
KulervoKankko wrote:So currently im seeing and alot of and others are seeing alot of evil roles give up/throw as soon as jailor reveal themselves D1. This is mostly just leaving when they get evil in general. When I play, I really don't see a difference in leaves whether a Jailor claims Tp/lo or not.For townies this jailor meta is like field day, 4-6 confirmed townies by D2 and didint even have to work for that really. As a someone who enjoyes to play evil roles quite a bit i see a fundemental probelm with that. The town created a way in which they were able to confirm themselves, a fundamental aspect of the game. I fail to see why that's an issue. For players who say jailor meta is okay and nothing is wrong, what am i or whoever meant to claim when vfr:ing starts even slightly believably That's the thing, the town shouldn't have to vfr you or ever feel the need to. You've put yourself in a position where you now need to think of a quick lie to save yourself. If you place yourself in that position, that's not a failing of the meta, that your own doing. vfr has always been a thing, and it's always resulted in a lot of evils being lynched because they can't lie. This isn't a problem with the Jailor Meta it's a problem with the fact that there's not much to claim as evil.? Then questions start to arrise about why i wasnt on jailor "mimimi" etc on N1 and i get lynched Unless you're town and have a good reason (That you communicate with the Jailor), not being on the Jailor is a red flag and should be lynched.( Most townies are happy to lynch many who dont particapate on jailor meta just because of it) aka townies have "spares" to throw at wall and gamble( much like soviet war plans) That was a pretty silly comparison, why are we comparing Town of Salem to the Soviet Union? (Also, this tactic was far more popular with the Japanese but eh, semantics aside). I cannot see how dev's would have intended this jailor meta to be part of the game. I might sound like broken record but the problem is that evil's leave/throw because of what i just explained and evils who non the less want to try and play are the victims of this thus making the playing field very uninviting to even try or insanely hard to win It's always been insanely hard to evils to win, before and after the Jailor Meta had become popular. Nerfing or changing jailor (A change you do not present in this post) wont change that; Evil/Mafia have always, and will always, win less than town and require more effort to win as.(Yes mistakes happen and sometimes you get townies that won't have a clue etc rainbows and unicorn dreams). I have done some research of my own and asked around many players and players who quit, what is/was biggest reason on whats wrong? Not surpsinly jailor meta was the biggest I doubt this. The sentiment behind why people are leaving/have left this game is far more than most people saying "Jailor Meta." Poor balance, slow updates and changes, the fact that it went from f2p to paid, and the fact that social deduction games are less popular than ever factor in way more than a single playstyle. and the effects of it just makes games boring even for townies and stupidly hard for evils thus creating a playing field which is not fair. Only thing it creates is boosting winrates and very sour taste in mouth for those evils who decide stay and to try play anyway..
Even if meeting at jailor n1 would be somehow fixed more than likely they would random meet at another place to confirm eachother n1 and again we would be in same state but different meta I don't fully understand this point. Are you claiming that even if jailor didn't claim at N1 there would be a different target to meet at to confirm each other? Because this simply isn't true. The entire point of the Jailor meta is to protect the Jailor as it confirms each townie in the process. No role is as important and powerful to need the high level of protection aside from the Mayor. The Jailor Meta isn't designed to confirm townies, it's designed to protect the Jailor. Confirming townies is the byproduct of the Jailor having such high protection, meaning that other town roles have the leeway to communicate a lot more, confirming themselves in the process. Nothing will change that without a significant overhaul in the game's systems. ( because all they would have to worry is alerted vet n1) So i am asking, do you care more about your winrate/winning not fairly rather than playing as it was inteded to and giving everyone fair chance? Why am I going to lose more often just so somebody can have more fun? I don't care about my win/loss ratio, but I'm not going to kneecap myself and my teammates so that the evils can have more fun in the game. Furhtermore, I find playing evil to be a lot more fun now that there's a Jailor Meta because it's very satisfying to beat that meta. Before, it was just getitng lucky and hoping unfortunate circumstances didn't occur (Attacking an alerting vet, Randomly getting investigated by Sheriff, killing an Escort as Serial Killer because they roleblocked you etc.
Thanks to whom ever read this, Please note that english is not my first language so typos and weird spelling(s) might have occured.
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superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.
Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
superdog551 wrote:syjfwbaobfwl wrote:superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.
Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta
Maybe, but 1 can't roleblock and kill anyone who doesn't obey and also wouldn't be a confirmed townie. This strategy is much riskier when used with no confirmed jailor.
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:superdog551 wrote:syjfwbaobfwl wrote:superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.
Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta
Maybe, but 1 can't roleblock and kill anyone who doesn't obey and also wouldn't be a confirmed townie. This strategy is much riskier when used with no confirmed jailor.
Not really, you are removing a strong townie but without a role like medusa in game the strategy is as efective as always, the only change will be that LO will whisper the visits to find tp and be protected
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Stiersquid wrote:Honestly nerfing spy would hurt the jailor meta. Without spy seeing mafia visit the jailor the mafia could easily visit the jailor to confirm themselves.
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superdog551 wrote:-I wouldn't be opposed to removing both jailor and mayor, or at least nerfing them significantly to match the power of other townies. Ambusher definitely needs a rework too
mayor and jailor will never reach the power of other townies without throwing them into the trash, I think town leader would be a better idea (with proper nerfs to jailor ofc)
-I didn't think of the affect astral bg/doc would have on roles like medusa and arso, maybe instead of astral visits they are just hidden from lookout specifically unless their target is attacked. That way it is more of a LO nerf than a major game change
I dont like adding specific role interactions, even if it has a good reason behind it feels like band aid solutions and lazy too
-I like your nerfs for LO, that would actually shoot TPLO meta in the foot pretty effectively. This combined with nerfs to spy and jailor would probably be the least invasive way to end the meta, as it would still be possible but risky and hard to pull off
-You're right about starting N1 only making the game more luck based. I guess that's not very helpful to players on any faction, except maybe NK lol
Not even NK benefits of n1 luck, if SK kills a mafia n1 that is almost always a guaranteed town win
-I think spy needs less of a nerf and more of an overhaul because I don't know how you could nerf the ability to see mafia visits without adding some kind of RNG. There's plenty of good overhaul ideas already on the forums to choose from, if BMG needs some ideas
We did test a few and now we are testing another one idk how its results have been
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I dont like adding specific role interactions, even if it has a good reason behind it feels like band aid solutions and lazy too
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
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