Jailor Meta

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Jailor Meta

Postby KulervoKankko » Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:57 pm

So currently im seeing and alot of and others are seeing alot of evil roles give up/throw as soon as jailor reveal themselves D1. For townies this jailor meta is like field day, 4-6 confirmed townies by D2 and didint even have to work for that really. As a someone who enjoyes to play evil roles quite a bit i see a fundemental probelm with that. For players who say jailor meta is okay and nothing is wrong, what am i or whoever meant to claim when vfr:ing starts even slightly believably? Then questions start to arrise about why i wasnt on jailor "mimimi" etc on N1 and i get lynched ( Most townies are happy to lynch many who dont particapate on jailor meta just because of it) aka townies have "spares" to throw at wall and gamble( much like soviet war plans). I cannot see how dev's would have intended this jailor meta to be part of the game. I might sound like broken record but the problem is that evil's leave/throw because of what i just explained and evils who non the less want to try and play are the victims of this thus making the playing field very uninviting to even try or insanely hard to win (Yes mistakes happen and sometimes you get townies that won't have a clue etc rainbows and unicorn dreams). I have done some research of my own and asked around many players and players who quit, what is/was biggest reason on whats wrong? Not surpsinly jailor meta was the biggest and the effects of it just makes games boring even for townies and stupidly hard for evils thus creating a playing field which is not fair. Only thing it creates is boosting winrates and very sour taste in mouth for those evils who decide stay and to try play anyway..

Even if meeting at jailor n1 would be somehow fixed more than likely they would random meet at another place to confirm eachother n1 and again we would be in same state but different meta ( because all they would have to worry is alerted vet n1) So i am asking, do you care more about your winrate/winning not fairly rather than playing as it was inteded to and giving everyone fair chance?

Thanks to whom ever read this, Please note that english is not my first language so typos and weird spelling(s) might have occured.
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:03 pm

Unfortunately, it's an outspoken minority on these forums who are against change. Jailor meta is very toxic to newer players as it forces them to play only one way. In Ranked Practice there's a lot of toxicity when someone posts a will as a LO, Esc, Spy, Doc etc and they weren't on Jailor, and you get 4-5 town members hassling the person for not being on Jailor. And then that player gets voted up and force lynched by the stubborn Jailor, even if its obvious as day that that player is a Town member.

Jailor meta could have been fixed ages ago. There's like 2-3 roles that could be added to the game that would count Jailor - Auditor, Evil Constable, Mafia Jailor.

Or Jailor could just be nerfed as well. Starting the game at Night 1 would slightly do that
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:12 pm

TheTraitorofSalem wrote:Unfortunately, it's an outspoken minority on these forums who are against change. Jailor meta is very toxic to newer players as it forces them to play only one way. In Ranked Practice there's a lot of toxicity when someone posts a will as a LO, Esc, Spy, Doc etc and they weren't on Jailor, and you get 4-5 town members hassling the person for not being on Jailor. And then that player gets voted up and force lynched by the stubborn Jailor, even if its obvious as day that that player is a Town member.

Jailor meta could have been fixed ages ago. There's like 2-3 roles that could be added to the game that would count Jailor - Auditor, Evil Constable, Mafia Jailor.

Or Jailor could just be nerfed as well. Starting the game at Night 1 would slightly do that


Who on the forums agrees with Jailor meta? I've not heard people defend current Jailor with a valid argument or point, Jailor meta can easily be fixed from one thing.

>While Jailor Jails they cannot be protected. (Docs, BGs ect will always fail to protect the jailor if jailing). Also remove chain jailing then jailor is a fairly balanced Power role that has to stay hidden and makes it so TP doesn't just spam on the jailor and LO gains ez visits.

Edit (Just wanted to add)
As someone on the forums I've been always trying to discuss changes which would "benefit" the game, I generally think the games in a bit of a rough spot due to certain roles, a lot of people actually agree, more the solutions to what should be done are more of a discussion.
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:34 pm

I disagree with a role being so powerful that Town Protects aren't allowed to defend.

Jailor needs to be nerf to a similar power role as Vigilante. Vigilante being a stronger direct killer (3 bullets, no guilt) whilst Jailor has less killing potential but has the JOAT benefits. I've always believed that roles within the same alignment should have similar power levels which is the case for a few sub-alignments such as Town Protective (doctor can heal multiple times, bodyguard can protect once but kills attacker). And there should be a Town Government alignment (excluded from Rand-Town), but I don't think Jailor belongs here. I'd like to see Jailor nerfed to the power level of the other Town Killing roles. Jailor should have 2 executes, and should lose the ability to jail when they lose their executes. And in the games current state, a way to tackle the toxic tp/lo meta is to start the game at N1.

As someone on the forums I've been always trying to discuss changes which would "benefit" the game, I generally think the games in a bit of a rough spot due to certain roles, a lot of people actually agree, more the solutions to what should be done are more of a discussion.

SC2Mafia was more balanced than this game and the creator of that was an original benefactor of Town of Salem. This game was almost a copy+paste of that when it first came out, expect they obviously had Jailor meta planned as Jailor was buffed and roles that negatively affected Jailor were left out from the game. Starcraft 2 is a dying game, yet the current developer of SC2Mafia is still adding roles and implementing updates on a regular basis. there's almost double the roles in that game as there is in TOS. This should be following in SC2Mafias legacy

This game is suffering from lack of development and a stubbornness to change. The devs don't want to implement anything that will change the game in anyway. With that attitude this game will just continue to lose its player base. No one new plays this game anymore because the meta is toxic towards new players and unfun
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby Crona111 » Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:21 am

KulervoKankko wrote:So currently im seeing and alot of and others are seeing alot of evil roles give up/throw as soon as jailor reveal themselves D1. This is mostly just leaving when they get evil in general. When I play, I really don't see a difference in leaves whether a Jailor claims Tp/lo or not.For townies this jailor meta is like field day, 4-6 confirmed townies by D2 and didint even have to work for that really. As a someone who enjoyes to play evil roles quite a bit i see a fundemental probelm with that. The town created a way in which they were able to confirm themselves, a fundamental aspect of the game. I fail to see why that's an issue. For players who say jailor meta is okay and nothing is wrong, what am i or whoever meant to claim when vfr:ing starts even slightly believably That's the thing, the town shouldn't have to vfr you or ever feel the need to. You've put yourself in a position where you now need to think of a quick lie to save yourself. If you place yourself in that position, that's not a failing of the meta, that your own doing. vfr has always been a thing, and it's always resulted in a lot of evils being lynched because they can't lie. This isn't a problem with the Jailor Meta it's a problem with the fact that there's not much to claim as evil.? Then questions start to arrise about why i wasnt on jailor "mimimi" etc on N1 and i get lynched Unless you're town and have a good reason (That you communicate with the Jailor), not being on the Jailor is a red flag and should be lynched.( Most townies are happy to lynch many who dont particapate on jailor meta just because of it) aka townies have "spares" to throw at wall and gamble( much like soviet war plans) That was a pretty silly comparison, why are we comparing Town of Salem to the Soviet Union? (Also, this tactic was far more popular with the Japanese but eh, semantics aside). I cannot see how dev's would have intended this jailor meta to be part of the game. I might sound like broken record but the problem is that evil's leave/throw because of what i just explained and evils who non the less want to try and play are the victims of this thus making the playing field very uninviting to even try or insanely hard to win It's always been insanely hard to evils to win, before and after the Jailor Meta had become popular. Nerfing or changing jailor (A change you do not present in this post) wont change that; Evil/Mafia have always, and will always, win less than town and require more effort to win as.(Yes mistakes happen and sometimes you get townies that won't have a clue etc rainbows and unicorn dreams). I have done some research of my own and asked around many players and players who quit, what is/was biggest reason on whats wrong? Not surpsinly jailor meta was the biggest I doubt this. The sentiment behind why people are leaving/have left this game is far more than most people saying "Jailor Meta." Poor balance, slow updates and changes, the fact that it went from f2p to paid, and the fact that social deduction games are less popular than ever factor in way more than a single playstyle. and the effects of it just makes games boring even for townies and stupidly hard for evils thus creating a playing field which is not fair. Only thing it creates is boosting winrates and very sour taste in mouth for those evils who decide stay and to try play anyway..

Even if meeting at jailor n1 would be somehow fixed more than likely they would random meet at another place to confirm eachother n1 and again we would be in same state but different meta I don't fully understand this point. Are you claiming that even if jailor didn't claim at N1 there would be a different target to meet at to confirm each other? Because this simply isn't true. The entire point of the Jailor meta is to protect the Jailor as it confirms each townie in the process. No role is as important and powerful to need the high level of protection aside from the Mayor. The Jailor Meta isn't designed to confirm townies, it's designed to protect the Jailor. Confirming townies is the byproduct of the Jailor having such high protection, meaning that other town roles have the leeway to communicate a lot more, confirming themselves in the process. Nothing will change that without a significant overhaul in the game's systems. ( because all they would have to worry is alerted vet n1) So i am asking, do you care more about your winrate/winning not fairly rather than playing as it was inteded to and giving everyone fair chance? Why am I going to lose more often just so somebody can have more fun? I don't care about my win/loss ratio, but I'm not going to kneecap myself and my teammates so that the evils can have more fun in the game. Furhtermore, I find playing evil to be a lot more fun now that there's a Jailor Meta because it's very satisfying to beat that meta. Before, it was just getitng lucky and hoping unfortunate circumstances didn't occur (Attacking an alerting vet, Randomly getting investigated by Sheriff, killing an Escort as Serial Killer because they roleblocked you etc.

Thanks to whom ever read this, Please note that english is not my first language so typos and weird spelling(s) might have occured.


As I think more about this, why does everybody on these forums dislike the Jailor Meta so much? Why is a meta such a bad thing? Making choices and doing actions that will improve your chances of victory shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. I just wished BMG would balance the game around the Jailor Meta by buffing the evils and givinf them ways to work around it instead of trying (and failing) to ruin it by nerfing the town.
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby TheTraitorofSalem » Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:23 am

Because its stale and is starting to get old. It's been the meta for years without any possibility for change. It's also very toxic for new players and instantly drives most people away from the game.
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby Crona111 » Sun Dec 25, 2022 5:34 am

And how do you suppose going around to "fixing" this, because the way I see it, actively ruining the meta is far worse for the community then it is beneficial. You destroy the meta which has been here for years by changing a lot about the game, which would upset old players who got used to said meta and also want to win, it would upset people who are learning the meta who've now wasted time, and would confuse new players trying to get a grip on this game.

New players, or those who call it stale, can go to other game modes if they don't want to experience the meta. Though, I really don't think trying to appeal to the small amount of new people in the game should be the priority. Maintaining the people you already have playing this game should be the move, though at the same time any new person who doesn't play the game because there was something they don't understand isn't healthy for a competitive environment anyway.
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:03 pm

Most of the people who play rn agree on that the meta is unfun tho, they use it because they want to win and if a tp or LO or spy decides to not follow they get lynched so they must follow the meta too
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby superdog551 » Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:30 pm

I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:37 pm

superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.


Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby Stiersquid » Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:33 am

Honestly nerfing spy would hurt the jailor meta. Without spy seeing mafia visit the jailor the mafia could easily visit the jailor to confirm themselves.
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby superdog551 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:54 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.


Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta


Maybe, but 1 can't roleblock and kill anyone who doesn't obey and also wouldn't be a confirmed townie. This strategy is much riskier when used with no confirmed jailor.
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:41 pm

superdog551 wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.


Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta


Maybe, but 1 can't roleblock and kill anyone who doesn't obey and also wouldn't be a confirmed townie. This strategy is much riskier when used with no confirmed jailor.


Not really, you are removing a strong townie but without a role like medusa in game the strategy is as efective as always, the only change will be that LO will whisper the visits to find tp and be protected
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby superdog551 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:20 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.


Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta


Maybe, but 1 can't roleblock and kill anyone who doesn't obey and also wouldn't be a confirmed townie. This strategy is much riskier when used with no confirmed jailor.


Not really, you are removing a strong townie but without a role like medusa in game the strategy is as efective as always, the only change will be that LO will whisper the visits to find tp and be protected


What's the point of proposing jailor nerfs then if removing it entirely wouldn't even fix the meta its created? If that is truly the case then the discussion needs to shift from being about the "jailor" meta to instead be about major town nerfs across the board to prevent it.

Personally though, I don't think it would continue this way without the jailor. You aren't just removing a strong townie. You are removing THE strong, always confirmed, leader of the town townie. Its not as easy or safe to perform this meta. Any scum can claim to be a strong role and have TPLO on them, and they won't get executed by the real version for it. BMER is even more powerful if LO wants to try to whisper to every TP before confirming whether or not one exists. I don't see how town going "TPLO on this random unconfirmed person" is nearly as powerful or effective as "TPLO on this unique, confirmed townie or die." Mafia is not going to be as threatened by the former than they currently are trying to take out the jailor, especially if a mafia member is the one that TPLO is on whether by chance or because they claimed to be a powerful townie. That's why I think if jailor is removed a new meta or metas would form. We need to stop tiptoeing around the issue and just advocate for no more jailor. BMG should at least test a ranked jailorless rolelist
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:23 pm

Spoiler:
superdog551 wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.


Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta


Maybe, but 1 can't roleblock and kill anyone who doesn't obey and also wouldn't be a confirmed townie. This strategy is much riskier when used with no confirmed jailor.


Not really, you are removing a strong townie but without a role like medusa in game the strategy is as efective as always, the only change will be that LO will whisper the visits to find tp and be protected


What's the point of proposing jailor nerfs then if removing it entirely wouldn't even fix the meta its created? If that is truly the case then the discussion needs to shift from being about the "jailor" meta to instead be about major town nerfs across the board to prevent it.

Personally though, I don't think it would continue this way without the jailor. You aren't just removing a strong townie. You are removing THE strong, always confirmed, leader of the town townie. Its not as easy or safe to perform this meta. Any scum can claim to be a strong role and have TPLO on them, and they won't get executed by the real version for it. BMER is even more powerful if LO wants to try to whisper to every TP before confirming whether or not one exists. I don't see how town going "TPLO on this random unconfirmed person" is nearly as powerful or effective as "TPLO on this unique, confirmed townie or die." Mafia is not going to be as threatened by the former than they currently are trying to take out the jailor, especially if a mafia member is the one that TPLO is on whether by chance or because they claimed to be a powerful townie. That's why I think if jailor is removed a new meta or metas would form. We need to stop tiptoeing around the issue and just advocate for no more jailor. BMG should at least test a ranked jailorless rolelist


Jailor meta is just a variant of the TPLO meta (the main problem)

The main purpose of jailor meta isnt to keep jailor alive, it is to confirm as many townies as posible as fast as posible, going on jailor is just the easiest way to do it but you dont need a jailor revealed to confirm them

And no, tp wont stay on 1 the entire game (suposing tplo on 1 meta) they will go on 1 n1 to confirm people and then they will do something else

Bmer wont reallt become stronger since LO alrwady whispers all that info to the jailor

So basically the meta will change but it wont be removed or noticeablt nerfed
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby superdog551 » Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:35 am

Spoiler:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
superdog551 wrote:I think the best way to end the jailor meta would be to simply remove it from the game, or at least ranked. Lets face it, jailor is OP and bad for game balance, plus it is confirmed in every major list. Nerfing the jailor wont fix the problem, even if they cant be healed while jailing they can still confirm themselves immediately and call for TPLO. LO stays on jailor the entire game and if they are attacked, LO sees it. I think it would be healthy for the game to just remove jailor and see how strategies evolve. No jailor = no jailor meta. Easy.


Tplo can still stack up on 1 target and confirm half the town n1, even if no jailor I can already see those mf making the "tplo on 1" meta


Maybe, but 1 can't roleblock and kill anyone who doesn't obey and also wouldn't be a confirmed townie. This strategy is much riskier when used with no confirmed jailor.


Not really, you are removing a strong townie but without a role like medusa in game the strategy is as efective as always, the only change will be that LO will whisper the visits to find tp and be protected


What's the point of proposing jailor nerfs then if removing it entirely wouldn't even fix the meta its created? If that is truly the case then the discussion needs to shift from being about the "jailor" meta to instead be about major town nerfs across the board to prevent it.

Personally though, I don't think it would continue this way without the jailor. You aren't just removing a strong townie. You are removing THE strong, always confirmed, leader of the town townie. Its not as easy or safe to perform this meta. Any scum can claim to be a strong role and have TPLO on them, and they won't get executed by the real version for it. BMER is even more powerful if LO wants to try to whisper to every TP before confirming whether or not one exists. I don't see how town going "TPLO on this random unconfirmed person" is nearly as powerful or effective as "TPLO on this unique, confirmed townie or die." Mafia is not going to be as threatened by the former than they currently are trying to take out the jailor, especially if a mafia member is the one that TPLO is on whether by chance or because they claimed to be a powerful townie. That's why I think if jailor is removed a new meta or metas would form. We need to stop tiptoeing around the issue and just advocate for no more jailor. BMG should at least test a ranked jailorless rolelist


Jailor meta is just a variant of the TPLO meta (the main problem)

The main purpose of jailor meta isnt to keep jailor alive, it is to confirm as many townies as posible as fast as posible, going on jailor is just the easiest way to do it but you dont need a jailor revealed to confirm them

And no, tp wont stay on 1 the entire game (suposing tplo on 1 meta) they will go on 1 n1 to confirm people and then they will do something else

Bmer wont reallt become stronger since LO alrwady whispers all that info to the jailor

So basically the meta will change but it wont be removed or noticeablt nerfed

Okay I see your point. Lets come up with ideas to end the TPLO meta then, since it seems to be the real issue and not the jailor. I have a few:

-Nerf/remove jailor anyway because it is bad for balance. I just think a list without jailor would be worth trying personally.

-Bodyguard and Doctor visits are astral, unless they save/protect their target (Lorewise it could be explained like this: Bodyguard stays hidden while protecting their target, only appearing to attack. Doctor doesn't actually visit target unless they see they were attacked). It might be a drastic change but it instantly destroys the TPLO meta because LO can't actually see the TPs under normal circumstances. Also just makes TP less confirmable in general, it would be easier for mafia to claim and cc.

-Alternatively, just remove the lookout role from ranked. I know its definitely an unpopular opinion to remove jailor or remove LO, or any role I guess. But lets face it, sometimes it might be better for the game to just get rid of something that is holding it back. The reason this might be the preferable option is that even if BG/Doc become astral, LO can still call for TSLO, TILO, or even just Every Town on someone and still confirm townies. Its not as powerful as TPLO but it does essentially the same thing. The role has already been nerfed, so instead of nerfing it to be useless just keep it in chaos modes and remove it from ranked. Just like that, TPLO meta is gone.

-A less extreme and pretty common idea: Start the game at N1 to prevent TPLO meta from occurring right away. This doesn't exactly solve the problem but it does give mafia a chance to get a jump on the town.

What do you think? What else could kill this meta?

Edit:
Stiersquid wrote:Honestly nerfing spy would hurt the jailor meta. Without spy seeing mafia visit the jailor the mafia could easily visit the jailor to confirm themselves.

This also could help but maybe not enough on its own
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:16 am

(Not gonna quote since I dont think its necesary anymore)

I would rather nerf jailor, specially because if we remove jailor it also means to remove mayor, yes mayor is much weaker than jailor but still much stronger than the rest of the town and also to rework ambusher since it has the same problem as jailor/mayor but to a lesser extent

Bg and doc being astral works but is a double edged sword, it would be a nerf to roles like arso and specially medusa and ambusher (even tho ambusher is an unbalanced role)

I see a lot of ppl suggesting big nerfs to LO, the thing is that if it wasnt because of tplo meta then LO wouldnt be a problem without mentioning that LO is much easier to fix than jailor, I think that making it so

Doc and crus cannot go on the same player twice unless that player is attacked
If more than 3 players visit their target, LO doesnt identify anyone and cannot target that player next night, this allows for RM to visit the tplo target to overwhelm LO and avoid confirmation

Starting game n1 only increases n1 luck (which is already high), the main reason those 10 seconds on d1 are there is to allow player to ssy something to increase or decrease their chances of being targeted, remove that and the game becomes much more luck dependant

Nerfing spy is also a must ofc, it removes a big part of the already limited counterplay the stategy has
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby superdog551 » Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:13 am

-I wouldn't be opposed to removing both jailor and mayor, or at least nerfing them significantly to match the power of other townies. Ambusher definitely needs a rework too

-I didn't think of the affect astral bg/doc would have on roles like medusa and arso, maybe instead of astral visits they are just hidden from lookout specifically unless their target is attacked. That way it is more of a LO nerf than a major game change

-I like your nerfs for LO, that would actually shoot TPLO meta in the foot pretty effectively. This combined with nerfs to spy and jailor would probably be the least invasive way to end the meta, as it would still be possible but risky and hard to pull off

-You're right about starting N1 only making the game more luck based. I guess that's not very helpful to players on any faction, except maybe NK lol

-I think spy needs less of a nerf and more of an overhaul because I don't know how you could nerf the ability to see mafia visits without adding some kind of RNG. There's plenty of good overhaul ideas already on the forums to choose from, if BMG needs some ideas
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:10 pm

superdog551 wrote:-I wouldn't be opposed to removing both jailor and mayor, or at least nerfing them significantly to match the power of other townies. Ambusher definitely needs a rework too

mayor and jailor will never reach the power of other townies without throwing them into the trash, I think town leader would be a better idea (with proper nerfs to jailor ofc)

-I didn't think of the affect astral bg/doc would have on roles like medusa and arso, maybe instead of astral visits they are just hidden from lookout specifically unless their target is attacked. That way it is more of a LO nerf than a major game change

I dont like adding specific role interactions, even if it has a good reason behind it feels like band aid solutions and lazy too

-I like your nerfs for LO, that would actually shoot TPLO meta in the foot pretty effectively. This combined with nerfs to spy and jailor would probably be the least invasive way to end the meta, as it would still be possible but risky and hard to pull off

-You're right about starting N1 only making the game more luck based. I guess that's not very helpful to players on any faction, except maybe NK lol

Not even NK benefits of n1 luck, if SK kills a mafia n1 that is almost always a guaranteed town win

-I think spy needs less of a nerf and more of an overhaul because I don't know how you could nerf the ability to see mafia visits without adding some kind of RNG. There's plenty of good overhaul ideas already on the forums to choose from, if BMG needs some ideas

We did test a few and now we are testing another one idk how its results have been
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Re: Jailor Meta

Postby superdog551 » Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:56 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I dont like adding specific role interactions, even if it has a good reason behind it feels like band aid solutions and lazy too


I don't see the issue with it tbh, balance changes don't need to be as big as an actual role rework to be effective. Even big role reworks can be considered lazy anyway. I think if the game wants to become properly balanced then we should advocate for more specific role interactions and balances. BG/Doc being hidden from lookout when they don't save someone is an easy to implement and perfectly effective balance changes that end the unhealthy TPLO meta. If you would prefer it to be less specific to BG/Doc you can just make a new trait called "hidden" or something like that, which makes the role invisible to LO without the other astral benefits. Then this trait can be applied to other roles if necessary. (Also I just had the thought that if a mafia LO was ever added it could see through the hidden trait and see BG/Doc, which follows the mafia trend of having a similar but more powerful version of a town role)

I get why you and probably a lot of players are hesitant about adding minor or specific role interactions but the way I see it, this game needs some serious changes to stay alive. Specific role interactions wouldn't just be useful for balance changes (not to mention easily changed or reversed if they don't work out), they could add new and interesting strategies/challenges for roles to work with and around during the game.

I agree with everything else you said though, Town(Leader) would be a good change to the rolelist. You're right about NK not benefiting from starting N1 too, so scrap that idea. Hopefully BMG sees this thread and considers our thoughts on this topic :? Maybe I'll start a new thread and compile my ideas there
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