It buffs evils and buffs Witch. Do you not like buffed evils or Witch?
PatrykSzczescie wrote:Comparing to previous ranked rolelists, I think the current one has been the most balanced one so far.
The previous ones were strongly town-sided. Mafia and neutrals were forced to co-operate with each other to meet their win conditions which wasn't easy with competent town. When evils jumped on each other, sometimes unintentionally, town mistakes were even more forgiving. Moreover, town was sometimes given won games on a plate by evils this way. Evil factions didn't have such free wins. NK has always been the hardest role to win because of a single member against everybody else. Most of NK wins were pity wins - getting into 1v1v1 situation where 100% winning (NE) or 100% losing (mostly town) living player just hands NK a win.
The current rolelist is balanced between factions - when I roll town, I am less certain of a win and even as mafia I have to try not to lose the game. The roles are set the way that no one is in 100% loss situation for being targeted N1 such as starting jester. There's less RNG in the game where you happen to see evils kill each other. The existence of both witch and exe in the game is a good nerf to jailor meta, massclaiming strategy and guilty push - you can still pull out these strategies but they're as viable as the opposite to them (silent jailor, no claim, don't lynch early) though the most optimal strategy is finding the middle ground.
There's no certain overpowered strategy that works every game. You have to adjust your decisions to how the game goes, not only based on your role. Trans can protect jailor/vig from the witch one of those can claim for trans protection. Evils outing in 6v6 situation is risky due to some town roles capable of regaining majority when a few of them make the right decisions at once. Vig fakeclaiming another town role is one whole double-edged strategy.
Role confirmability is not balanced but I don't think they need to be. Every game there can be some confirmed town roles but it's part of the game. The mafia is supposed to mess up with confirmations. LO and spy combo can be strong confirming 5 players as town during a single night but mafia always has a visiting role that can decrease the amount of confirmed players. LO role is easy to confirm but mafia can also fake visits after discussing a strategy during the night and disguiser can incriminate LO by showing a fake visit. Even jailor can be cc'd where mafs back up their partner's claim and getting jailor lynched can be a winning move for evils. As an evil, you just have to work out with confirmed roles and adjust your strategy to end up with you winning.
I'm fine with no TMK. Sacrificing GF or mafioso is usually a bad strategy and the remaining evils should protect their killing mafs from being exposed. Most of games where I see the only killing mafia being blocked is when the killing mafia makes a bad claim such as BG or TK. If this happens though, the witch can force execute or hypno can fake an attack.
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I think that neutrals need some appeal though.
Exe is a neutral role. There can be games 9v6 but there also can be 10v5 or the exe can try something different. However, most of games exe sides mafia. One of reasons is the mutual win condition which makes co-operation easier to pull off. Especially when exe target is confirmed townie there's no other choice - which kind of balances the game between factions: town gets a confirmed member which in result enforces 9v6. But even in other scenarios where exe wins without any help, there's a popular meta that exe helps maf win regardless. It's because of the old ranked where exe had to very often rely on other evils to meet the win condition or the evils were given pity wins due to them being a difficult faction. Even though this no longer applies to the current ranked, players got used to the meta where exe simply sides evil. The thing is that if people somehow forget about how the old ranked worked, the exe would be more of a wild card and there you have 9v5 with exe interfering. Same applies to jester.
Witch is a good role but has one flaw in the win condition - has to survive. This discourages from making some ballsy strategies with intention to sacrifice the witch to kill more townies or let maf gain a lot of information such as totally risky claims solely to spread chaos like cc'ing jailor or random guilties every day. It would be more fun to play a witch if the only thing I was required to do was to make town lose so I could pull off such plays. It doesn't help that town targets the witch, once to gain more advantage than if they attempted to kill a maf, another time when they just want simply make the witch lose whenever possible as the town loses too. This even requires jester and witch to trust each other in a situation with 2 mafs left, that the jester won't haunt the witch considering that the losing town doesn't want to make the neutrals win.
PatrykSzczescie wrote:Yeah, kind of old ranked was less balanced but more fun due to how unpredictable that could be. Either chilling out as town or getting some challenge as evil.
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:There shouldn't be only 1 ranked playlist. If this game wasn't balanced, the devs wouldn't be struggling so much with trying to get the perfect ranked set-up. There really should be 5 or so possible set-ups that can roll in ranked. EpicMafia was balanced and had multiple set-ups. Starcraft II was very similar to this, but there were hundreds of ranked like set-ups that were created. It wouldn't be hard to do. Less town confirmability, jailor counters and more claim space are things that are needed to make ranked balance.
People also want more of a competitve game. I know theres a few of the outspoken miniorty on this forum that like TOS more casual style. But competitive games are becoming more popular. People like a challenge, people like to be rewarded for being good (the ranked system sucks in this game), people actually want to use deception and scum read properly.
Algus wrote:i prefer old ranked list, always have
not a fan of the any allowing for vampires but aside from that
mafia should be limited to 1 mafia deception imo. would guarantee second rm is either consort/amb/bm/consig (which are better roles than say a second janitor/framer/disguiser etc)
the exe serves a pretty relevant purpose, it makes it so sheriffs arent 100% trustable day 2 lets say
the forums have only ever made good roles bad and fun roles suck so i wont ever condone another role rework. its not once ended well
TheTraitorofSalem wrote:6vs9 Playlist
-Compensate for leavers, the vast majority of which are evil
-Compensates for the unpowered Mafia roles and the overpowered Town roles
-Gives Mafia voting power to deal with half the town being confirmed by Day 2 or 3
-No room for Town to make an error
I do agree, the current rolelist is basically a game of chess, a race on who takes out the other teams' power and leading roles first. It should rather be a 10v5 with 5 RT Slots for more claimspace and Witch going off for a NE slot, or even an NK slot if you will. It would balance the Game better as its harder to coordinate what youre up against.
Instant Confirm for Town
-Jailor if claims D1, almost always instantly confirmed
True,i see Jailor as Currently being the "King Piece" Of the Town. Half of the "Silent Jailors" End up magically dying d2 anyway, so it is meta. Downside is the Whisper Spam.
-Veteran gets kills, instantly confirmed. No CCS possible
It is still a tradeoff of one Townie dying to confirm the other. Varies on the Dead Townie's Use.
-Lookout confirmed by synergy with Jailor, often confirms most TP/Escorts/Spies by Day 2
You can make a fake Lookout will just by seeing who whispers to Jailor early and who doesn't post as Sherrif/Inv. The Whisper Spam is the Downside of Jailor Meta.
-Lookout and Spy synergy to confirm Escorts
Dependant if there's a Spy in the Game. Other than that, Escorts are a Target Anyway, they take up the TS slot one way or another.
- Vigilantes dying after shooting town, gives Mafia no opportunity to cc the kill
The Vigi is Confirmed, But dead at the Same Time. This is only a downside if you're gonna claim Vet or if theres a Confirmed Second TK.
-Spy being able to confirm themselves with roleblocks etc on tp/lo, easy to find fake Spies
If you know what you're doing you can pull off a Spy Fake.
-Too many Unique roles (Retri) which makes ccing difficult or you claim a Unique role and get instantly cced
I Slightly Disagree, This is heavily RNG-Dependant. I Agree Vet Shouldnt Be Unique, But Ret is Fine as it it. 6 Rets would be chaos, essentially a Who-Gets-The-Corpse thing. They'd also verify eachother much easier than ret can verify itself now. Also, if youre point is about being CCd, Mayor doesn't really fit in with it. Why claim mayor anywhere that isnt Jail?
Witch
-Forces lynches on Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher for no other reason then "there's witch need to lynch it"
-No reason to be in the game other then a counter for Vigilante
So every other role is witch-immune yes? Im fine with Witch, If youre Gonna give me a choice of either removing Witch or Exe off the list, id take exe off. Other Solution Mentioned at the Top.
Escort
-Evil based role, always has been in Mafia
-Mostly roleblocks town members or DEADLOCKS (another issue) the game
-Most Random Mafia roles are not powerful enough that a roleblock is enough to be detrimental
Witch can Prevent said Deadlock, and Escorts are a Common N2/N3 Target Anyway.
Executioner
-Boring role
-Lots of leavers
-Sometimes has impossible targets to lynch, especially with insta-confirm meta
I Agree Exe should be Switched. If we were to only switch exe, id switch it to a NB or NK Slot with the current list.
Jailor
-Overpowered
-Jailor sucks or makes a mistake = town losing
-All town should be equally contributing to the towns victory, not 1 person.
Roles will differ in power and it will always be like that. Other townies can contribute enough by giving Jailor Strong info they can use to cross evils out.
TP/LO
-Toxic gameplay
-Don't follow this and you get lynched or executed, almost guaranteed.
-Players who don't want to play this way, shouldn't be forced to
-Confirms too many roles by D2
The Current Meta is Strong, but the Counter is often a Boatload of whispers and you not knowing wich one of the 4 TP claims to execute first. Can be OP but also extremely frustrating for both Jailor and Town at times.
Vigilante
-Hard to shoot anyone
-Dying from making 1 mistake
-Dying from Witch forcing you to kill Town
-Get jailed, almost certain death with most Jailors
-Seems to be a higher chance of getting Jailed as well, seeing as Half the town (TPS, Invests) are almost some what confirmed early on
No Sane Jailor Ever Exes a Vigi Claim, Especially if the TS Slot is still TBD. Also, just learn to fucking claim TK on the Stand. I find Vigi OK as it is, It is the backing wheel for town if Jailor Loses his executes or Plays stupid and dies. I have had games with me blasting 3 bullets and shooting 3 Evils.
Balancing:'
All town members should be equally contributing to the Victory of the town. We should not have to rely on 1 overpowered role to do so.
Roles should be balanced to the sub-alignment that they belong in. Roles in TK should have their own strengths and weaknesses but should all have a similar power level. Same goes with Town Support, many roles that don't belong anywhere else dumped in Town Support.
Thats The Point of Town Support though. Also some roles will always be stronger than others, no changing that.
Town Killing
Veteran
-2 Alerts
-Not Unique
Agree with not unique. Disagree with 2 alerts. Good Enough as it is with 3.
Jailor
-2 Executes
-Delay in Jailing. Possibilities - (1) no jailing if there's a lynch (2) jailing only during odd nights (3) creating a jail cell to use
-No jailor protection from targeting (no more your target was jailed so you couldn't attack/invest/target them)
Just Because Jailor is OP, No need to nerf it down to the ground. i totally agree with 2 exes but the rest is an Arguement, semily. The Jailor Plays the Role to Lead the Town, therefore it is a unique role. There's no changing its position of lead unless you rework the role completely.
Vigilante
-3 Kills
-No Guilt
This would just make vig get used by witches WAY MORE, as youve complained above. The Guilt should be penalized not by shooting yourself, rather by just putting your gun away.
Town Protective
Doctor and Bodyguard are mostly balanced. Doctor can heal multiple times, Bodyguard sacrifices himself to take down an attacker. Don't even get me started with Trapper and Crusader
Trapper is balanced, Its a Juggernaut Version of Bodyguard. What do you mean? Trapper and crus arent even in Ranked aswell.
Bodyguard:
-Dies protecting your target but doesn't kill attackers if multiple attacks happen.
This removes the RNG element from role. Currently, if a Vigilante or Mafioso attack the same target that Bodyguard is defending, the Bodyguard will kill one of these players and the other player will successfully kill the target. Bodyguard should instead, absorb all the attacks, but be to overwhelmed to kill the attackers.
Id Rather get a Priority list for BG, honestly. This would make it an even easier fake-claim if witch knows what theyre doing.
Town Investigative
Sheriff should be the primary force that finds evildoers, but is useless most of the games. If there's a Disguiser in the game, then there's only 2/14 players that the Sheriff can find as Suspicious. Disguiser needs to be completely reworked. Killing roles and Factions should not have so much deception towards Sheriff. Sheriff is a very basic role, but should still be a threat. If other roles (like Jailor) were less overpowered, then the Mafia would actually use a night to kill a Sheriff. Currently, Sheriff is just a pathetic role for evils to claim or to give a sus target an excuse to play the Executioner card.
True, however a smart sherrif will still fiddle out those 2/3 out of 14, and if exe is dead/removed, Its easily a no-escape situation.
Investigator has an easier chance of finding evildoers. Investigators should be more about confirming somebodies claim. I would make the Investigative results more brood, perhaps this would be more achievable with more roles in the game. Frankly, its far to easy for Invest to find a Bodyguard, Godfather and be like oh ok this guy is most likely Godfather. Same goes for Vigi, Vet, Mafioso, Ambusher... it's almost always an instant lynch
BUT invests drawback is that evils also get that info. The BG/GF may end up being the last remaining Bodyguard and the Vig/vet/Maf/Amb may be a vigi the witch has free use to. i Agree it needs some result changes, but it isnt as OP of a role. The Real strategy to Invest is topost results to Jailor daily and just shut your mouth with them in public.
Sheriff - finds the evildoers and confirms if town.
-Alignment detection
-Your target is a member of the Mafia
-Your target is a Serial Killer
-Your target is a Werewolf
-Your target is not suspicious for Town, Neutral Benign, Arsonist
Old Sherrif, Essentially?
Investigators - narrows down the claims and discovers any fake claimers
-Rework of the entire investigative roster.
-More roles in the game for more fake claims.
-Not so many killing roles grouped together
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