Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Kirize12 wrote:A draw is a global loss. Any role that has the ability to lose has the ability to draw.
I just needed to call that out specifically.
Kirize12 wrote:The reason Witch loses if it dies is because if it didn’t, it would just have the combined winrate of every scum role through (arguably) no effort of its own. Personally, I would like to see “Witch Hunting”, aka deliberately denying the Witch a victory when it is unnecessary (killing the Witch before killing the solo Sheriff, for example), made illegal, but it’s not gamethrowing as they aren’t playing to lose.
Kirize12 wrote:The “shield shouldn’t protect them against vigilantes” doesn’t make sense UNLESS it has Invincible Defense against scum attacks. Idk if the devs will go for that considering that...well, they made the system not to be confusing. Witch has Basic Defense, Vig has a Basic Attack. You can’t say “Basic Defense UNLESS there is a Vigilante”...despite the fact that I support it.
Kirize12 wrote:If Witch is lucky enough witch a Mafia member, you have the scum team on a silver platter so it just becomes a better consort anyways.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Kirize12 wrote:That makes sense to be honest. The only way a game can end in a draw is if the Witch dies, which is equivalent to if the Survivor dies. If the Witch dies before the end of the game, it has failed to accomplish its specific win condition and thus loses - why should it get that loss diminished just because the Town played poorly as well?
Kirize12 wrote:I 100% agree that the wincon should be taken literally - once the Town has been marked as "losing the game" (in that, unless the Mafia gamethrows, exits game, or goes AFK, they cannot win) the Witch should be guaranteed a win UNLESS the game ends in a draw. So with a TI, Medium, GF, Mafioso, and Witch - the GF and Mafioso could lynch the Witch with town and the witch would still win, as they have survived to see the town get to a point where they have lost the game.
Kirize12 wrote:Alternatively, once the last town member dies the Witch wins no matter what. But that won't do much in Ranked.
Kirize12 wrote:Right. But Basic Attack is Basic Attack. Basic Defense is Basic Defense. Vig has Basic Attack. Witch has Basic Defense. What you're suggesting is saying "Witch has Basic Defense UNLESS there is a Vigilante". That feels...necessary, but not streamlined. It needs to be more streamlined. Less clunky.
I bring up Invincible Defense because the Witch Shield should go for ANY scum attack. Including unstoppable. Although the only non-Town role with an unstoppable attack is Juggernaut, which (currently) can't spawn alongside a Witch...hm. Maybe just Powerful Defense instead?
Kirize12 wrote:My point is Witch shouldn't get their targets roles. But whatever.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Kirize12 wrote:We pretty much spent the day debating game changes lol.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Kirize12 wrote:Joacgroso wrote:Why should witches be immune to veterans? This would force vigis to fakeclaim something outside their alignement. To be fair, we already have some clunky mechanics, like jailors dealing unstoppable attacks that can be stopped by a GA's powerful defense.
Astral visits isn’t solely Vet Immunity (although I suppose it is in Ranked). But it should be able to force the Veteran on/off alert as right now it’s useless against it, and should also be able to force roles like Mayor to walk into Vet.
Nerfing Town is good, btw. Vigi should stay hidden as long as Witch exists. But I agree this should only be done in conjunction with making Vig able to shoot Witch.
Kirize12 wrote:Vet shouldn't be control immune, it should be able to be forced on/off alert. Vet punishes Maf for making good kills, making it less powerful is a good thing.
Who the hell is "everyone" because I do not agree with Vig losing a bullet AND getting Jailor's guilt. Either lose a bullet and no guilt or keep the bullets but Jailor's guilt.
It's not "live to see evils have majority", it's "live to see Town lose the game". In Rainbow, Town has the ability to win, despite them not having the majority. If there's any situation where Town can no longer win - e.g. Invest, Doctor, Sheriff, Escort vs GF, Mafioso, Framer, Consort, Witch - Witch would get the win as the Town literally cannot win. But just making it a literal interpretation, so it wins when the last Town member dies, would be better.
Witch can deduce a player's role through their control, indirectly. It doesn't need investigative abilities on top of that.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Kirize12 wrote:yeah, and now u know that person isnt a killer or roleblocker
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.
Kirize12 wrote:Vet is supposed to act pro-town to bait Mafia into killing it. TPs will likely be on Jailor so Mafia basically can kill whoever they feel like killing, Investigatives wont investigate anyone acting pro-town, so Vet punishes Mafia for making good kills.
I still dont understand why vet is a good kill, mafia knows the potential existance of a veteran so they have to think well who to attack
Thats the same reason to why mafia shouldnt attack mayor/jailor/transporter instantly
Vet is actually one of the most likely roles to give Town majority after they lose it, since it kills through immunity. A Vig can't.
Thats only on paper (considering a balanced rolelist) if mafia has majority then they already know who the vet is, even if they dont they can lynch unclaimed townies and attack people they know is not vet
And yeah, BG and Trapper target people likely to be protected. Veteran is high risk, high reward, and if that extends to Jailor it should extent to Vet. We can buff Vet in other ways.
sorry but what does jailor have to do with this? And I dont think vet needs to be buffed (neither to be nerfed)
In that case, complete guilt removal is more balanced. It shouldn't be docked a bullet, that's just clunky, but if it is, get rid of the guilt mechanic.
Kirize12 wrote:Vet is supposed to act pro-town so Mafia thinks they're a good target. If Vet is scumhunting and carrying the game, Mafia attacks them - and dies.
yeah, so vet is a bad kill, and punishes mafia for making a bad kill (unless vet playing russian roulette and alerts without doing anything, but balance should take in consideration good players anyway)
Yeah, but you'd never see a Vet vs GF standoff.
I have, many times and I have been vet and killer in that situation, in ranked (and any balanced mode) those are super unlikely to happen, and even then most of times the vet has only 1 alert, so the killer usually has advantage (unless its arso)
Jailor is an incredibly high risk, high reward role. If Jailor can be high risk high reward, so can Vet. If this is too much of a nerf, we can buff it in other ways. That's what I meant. I'm not saying buff Vet straight up.
Vet is way more high risk-high reward than vet but anyway thats not the point
I know, but I still think its better to leave vet like that instead of doing (in my opinion) unnecesary nerfs and then buffing it to compensate the nerfs
That's why keeping the bullets, but jailor's guilt, is better. There's more to lose so you're less likely to shoot in the first place. If you shoot scum you essentially get a "free bullet" if you take away a Vig bullet, if you shoot town it's no big deal cuz it's only an extra bullet.
you have a point, but witch is there (and will be always there) complete removal of guilt would be a nightmare
Kirize12 wrote:You aren't supposed to claim Vet. Mafia isn't supposed to know you're vet, you're just supposed to act pro-town and push for Mafia lynches. That's an AMAZING kill...or it would be if the player wasn't a Veteran. That's how I play it anyways. Investigatives don't target pro-town people, nor do roleblockers.
Well, town protectives are likely to target pro towns, as you said TP punish bad kill cause they go on likely protected targets
LO is also likely to target pro towns
If vet player acts pro town then they might be protected, or be a veteran, so no thats not an amazing kill, that is a terrible kill if you think about it
And no TP probably left jailor if they know how to play, in high elo TPs (sometimes LO too) only go on jailor n1 to confirm themselves, then they leave jailor (and mafia thinks jailor is protected so they dont go on them)[b]
It's more likely than you think since GF has the best survival mechanics. And if Vet only has one alert that's on them. But a Vig can't do that. Vet is a high risk high reward role, that can only kill mafia once, and is confirmable...needs changes. Witch controlling Vet means Witch has synergy. That's a good thing. It means Vet reveals are just as risky as Vig reveals.
[b]I mean, vet revealing with witch alive can be as risky, sometimes even more risky than a vigi reveal (specially if escort exists)
Just imagine vet got revealed, they most likely got revealed cause they killed
2 alerts left
Witch obviusly will control townies into vet
Vet either keeps alerting and kills townies (which also reveals mafia the amount of alerts vet has) or doesnt alerts to avoid killing townies, which means mafia has open space to kill vet
That's why it needs to remove a bullet if it's completely guiltless. But with Jailor's guilt, keep the bullet count so there's more loss involved if the Vig chooses wrong.
[b]Ig you are right but im still not completely convinced[
Alex would be a better person to debate this/b]
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