Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

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Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby Fitmo » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:36 pm

there was 5 players left
exe(me)
spy
invest
vigi
witch

invest was voted up and guiltied and vigi was used the night before to kill a townie
the next day there was only spy,exe and witch left
town won can that be changed al tho i still don't understand why auto win was triggered at 3 players,isn't that for 2?
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:30 pm

Games will end as soon as there aren't more than one faction with members still alive. Since the only faction was town, the game ended. It wasn't a case of stalemate detector. The only exception to this rule are witches, who can keep the game going as long as there are any vigis with bullets or guilt alive.

I suppose that witch deserved a chance, but coding this things would be complicated since usually when town is the last faction left witches don't stand a chance since they can't kill directly. I guess witches could be allowed to win if they make it to a 1 vs 1 with town, since that probably means they played better.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:10 pm

If it were me, I'd maybe think about just removing the Town Win for wiping out the Mafia while a Witch still exists (even without a Vigilante) and make the Witch win a standoff against most town roles. The only exceptions I'd see are as follows.

Mayor - Obvious, but the standoff is only called if the Mayor is already revealed.

Jailor - Only if it has executions left, and only if it doesn't get the nerf it rightfully deserves of being unable to roleblock unless it successfully executes, which would make a Witch who knows who the Jailor is functionally Execution Immune. If this nerf were applied, then the standoff would always be called for the Witch.

Retributionist - Only if there is at least one unused Vigilante in the graveyard. (If there is only one and the Witch still has armor, then the standoff will be called after the Retributionist uses it to declare an attack and the Witch lives)
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:13 pm

SilverCruz wrote:If it were me, I'd maybe think about just removing the Town Win for wiping out the Mafia while a Witch still exists (even without a Vigilante) and make the Witch win a standoff against most town roles. The only exceptions I'd see are as follows.

Mayor - Obvious, but the standoff is only called if the Mayor is already revealed.

Jailor - Only if it has executions left, and only if it doesn't get the nerf it rightfully deserves of being unable to roleblock unless it successfully executes, which would make a Witch who knows who the Jailor is functionally Execution Immune. If this nerf were applied, then the standoff would always be called for the Witch.

Retributionist - Only if there is at least one unused Vigilante in the graveyard. (If there is only one and the Witch still has armor, then the standoff will be called after the Retributionist uses it to declare an attack and the Witch lives)


Witch has no way of killing alone if there is no vigi, this will simply make games last 1-3 days longer and cause a lot of inecesary draws
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:45 am

SilverCruz wrote:If it were me, I'd maybe think about just removing the Town Win for wiping out the Mafia while a Witch still exists (even without a Vigilante) and make the Witch win a standoff against most town roles. The only exceptions I'd see are as follows.

Mayor - Obvious, but the standoff is only called if the Mayor is already revealed.

Jailor - Only if it has executions left, and only if it doesn't get the nerf it rightfully deserves of being unable to roleblock unless it successfully executes, which would make a Witch who knows who the Jailor is functionally Execution Immune. If this nerf were applied, then the standoff would always be called for the Witch.

Retributionist - Only if there is at least one unused Vigilante in the graveyard. (If there is only one and the Witch still has armor, then the standoff will be called after the Retributionist uses it to declare an attack and the Witch lives)


That jailor nerf would never happen because Coven Leader exists, and its quite easy to make the jailor execute a townie in coven modes, especially when a role is outed that requires RBing (vigi) or protection (revealed mayor in a poisoner game) - since CL can see that no coven were jailed, an IQ player would assume jailor has made the protection play that night.

besides that, i see no reason why nuetrals should have the chance to vote out a final faction. Nuetrals have win cons, not last man standing wins (except witch)
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:57 pm

And that's why "Neutral Benign" and "Neutral Evil" are stupid blocks and it should be "Neutral Individual" and "Neutral Reliant" even though the only Neutral Reliant that exists is Witch.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:52 pm

It would be a huge pain if the witch was stuck against a revealed mayor without any vigilantes... I don't think the game should go on after that. The witch has absolutely no way of killing him.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:13 pm

SilverCruz wrote:And that's why "Neutral Benign" and "Neutral Evil" are stupid blocks and it should be "Neutral Individual" and "Neutral Reliant" even though the only Neutral Reliant that exists is Witch.

they aren't stupid blocks it's just that jester/exe are neutral benign forced into the NE slot while neutral evil is "Live to see the town lose" which means NE's are generally "reliant" while NB's are generally independent expect for GA? which turns into survivor if there target dies.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:49 pm

But by the definition of the word "Benign" Executioner is not benign because it wants to harm the Town, and Jester is not benign because if it succeeds it offs somebody.

It's a semantic game that the game really shouldn't be playing, but moving immediately would not work because of, again, Witch being the only real Neutral Reliant.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:59 pm

I don't think jesters and exes should be NB, because they tend to be more aggressive and chaotic that actual NBs. As someone else suggested in Parallax's jester rework, I think it would be better if exes and jesters were moved to their own alignement, "neutral lynching" while witches stay as NE, hopefully with some new roles that have the same wincon.

My only problem with witch-like roles is that witches are pretty cool, so making another role that doesn't seem like a more boring version of witch will be hard.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:09 pm

I proposed one that swaps the actions of the targets without swapping their targets (I.E. target Lookout and Vigilante while Lookout targets Jailor Claim and Vigilante idles, so Jailor Claim get shot at and Lookout doesn't visit anyone), but got no responses on the matter.

And to clarify, in that situation the Vigilante does not die of guilt because he technically didn't shoot anybody (and if there was a Bodyguard it would kill Lookout, which would instantly sell out the role as existing, though I suppose a Vigilante not dying of guilt after shooting the Jailor would also cause that to become evident), but if that role tries to target the same Vigilante twice, the Vigilante executes a guided attack (can't be disrupted by a Transporter) against them and their action that night doesn't work even if they survive (figuring they have Basic Armor like the Witch). It also receives an echo of both its targets' feedback, but the order in which it is received is based on their roles, not their numerical positions, so that should do enough to prevent it from working out exactly who's who.

It is pretty complicated, though.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:00 am

The main concept seems interesting, I don't know what the balance implications could be. But the second parragraph makes it unnecessarily complicated in my opinion, why not just swap targets instead of roles and targets?
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby SilverCruz » Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:35 pm

Specifically to make it more messy.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby OreCreeper » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:13 am

Exe is not factored into stalemates so the stalemate detector would see it as witch vs spy and give town the win.
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Re: Witch-Exe-Town interaction?

Postby James2 » Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:51 am

Fitmo wrote:there was 5 players left
exe(me)
spy
invest
vigi
witch

invest was voted up and guiltied and vigi was used the night before to kill a townie
the next day there was only spy,exe and witch left
town won can that be changed al tho i still don't understand why auto win was triggered at 3 players,isn't that for 2?

The game ends if there is only one witch vs townies with no vig. As the game does not end if there are two witches alive, there's an argument to be made that it shouldn't end if there's a witch and another neutral.
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