New NK Buffs and "All Any"

[Serahni]

Firstly, this is pure Feedback, not necessarily a complaint or a call-to-action. I'm aware that the game isn't balanced for the chaos game-modes, nor should they ever be. This is just something that has come up in discussion time and time again in the game, and I figured I'd throw it on the forums as a consideration.

For those of us who play All Any as our mode of choice, it has become quite obvious since the changes to Arso/SK/WW/LO that it's now even harder to win as Town over there. It's always been a mode where Town is the most likely to suffer from the lack of guaranteed roles; it has the biggest pool to choose from, after all, and a lot of the Town roles are designed to work in tandem with other roles that may not be present. Now there's just a new way for the SK to hide, and for Arso to be a threat, and WW can decimate things much earlier, and our poor Lookout had better hope only 3 people visit. Hurl a Witch and some Vampires and a Jester into the mix, and Town wins are more elusive than ever.

Is it impossible? Of course not. It's a chaos mode, you can still roll a game that is stacked Town. Is there an obvious fix? I haven't tried to think of any because I understand the nature of the mode is to be difficult to predict. I don't know if introducing more of the very loose restrictions is the solution. I just raise it as an observation because I'd be interested to know if other people have a similar experience, or if those of us chatting about it are just losing our minds.

[Ezradekezra]

...are you complaining that a chaos mode is unbalanced? I thought the point is that they valued craziness and fun over balance.

[Serahni]

I play "All Any" exclusively so I'd hardly say I was complaining about the chaotic nature of the mode. I also wouldn't designate my remarks as a complaint, I feel like I went to decent lengths to outline why I wasn't demanding any sort of action and simply wanted to see what others thought. I don't feel like it's unreasonable to question if changes to the game have overtly-negative impact on the game-mode, however, since we're already seeing people just outright quit if they get a Town role. It was already a problem, now it's worse it seems. I could be wrong. That's why I opened the discussion.

Which is exactly what this is; a discussion, not a complaint.

[Brilliand]

It would be nice to give Arsonist and maybe SK a nerf that only affects them when there are multiples in the same game.

For Arsonist, I would go with "every arsonist has a separate list of doused players, and can only ignite the people who they themselves doused".

For SK, I have no ideas. It's less of a big deal, though (SK wasn't buffed as heavily).

I usually find that Werewolf is more of a help to Town than a threat, because werewolves like to focus on killing the other NKS (Arsonists especially).

[kyuss420]

I found it much easier to win as WW. (which I rolled twice, even tho it was the only new NK I wasnt scrolling for) I think it just put WW on par with SK late game. Towns were dumb, but maf were onto me both games, so I managed to drop their majority to the point they couldnt easily lynch me by sheeping town. Never got a double kill in either game.... probably woulda won as SK too, but would of lost to mafia as old WW. Still ended up in a 1v1v1 situation both games, just like old WW.

next game - 9 town, 3 maf, 1 SK, 1 amne, I was solo HM. Town got wrecked (told you, they were dumb) ended up 3 maf v 2 town v me. Stupid me, thought consort was escort...stupid LO pushed the invest for some reason (4 outta 5 players evil, and he finds the invest sus), so I figured that the invest was consig, and voted, he got lynched..... maf steamrolled it, SK was no bigger problem than usual...(claiming doc didnt help him much)

yet to play as/face an arso. Looking forward to Jugg and early invincible rampages.

edit -
2 SK game vs 1 WW. - 2nd SK decided to push surv claim day2 ''he might be SK! we have to find the SKs!'' etc. So i decided to stab them that night. Unfortunately WW didnt want an NK hunter in town either, and killed us both in 1 hit on n2.... WW went on to win the game

SK vs Arso - was jailed n1, used cautious mode - I woulda been lynched day 2 as old SK. Attacked by vamp n2 (they tried while i was jailed), stabbed the disguiser that visited me... Arso ignited n3 - 2 kills (including PB), vig attacked me n3, I hit plaguebearer. Vig pushed me day 4, psy had me and arso and ignited townie on his vision...vig and maf voted me, but timed out, I said i visited arso and didnt burn.... ended up 1v1v1 with SK v Arso v medium. Medium hung the arso ^^

double edit -

3 arso games, one of them with 2 arsos. Didnt win any of them. Got to a 1v1v1 with trans and vamp in the 2 arso game (trans claims he transed the first arso n1 - never got doused) trans lynched me and auto lost to vampires.

Jugg game - 3 maf, amne, SK, Jugg, 3 town. Amne tried to remeber ret, turned out ret was disguiser... the 3 (idiot) town decided to vote with maf and lynch the SK, cos of death note (even tho I pointed out that would result in a 4v4 the next day, due to the amne.) Trans transed himself with mafioso, who i targeted, ended up 4 maf vs jugg... gg maf.

[Serahni]

It would be nice to give Arsonist and maybe SK a nerf that only affects them when there are multiples in the same game.

For Arsonist, I would go with "every arsonist has a separate list of doused players, and can only ignite the people who they themselves doused".

An interesting idea. It does seem that, potentially, the Arsonist has achieved the highest level of extreme power-up in "All Any" because of the possibility, nay tendency, for them to be more than one. I will say that I'm not sure if I've noticed a particular sway in favour of a specific evil role/roles, only that the additional challenge that the NK roles now pose causes the already-disadvantaged Town to collapse like a flan in the oven. It's pretty much expected in All Any for Town to spontaneously combust, now they just seem to manage it far quicker.

On a different but not-unrelated-note, I have often wondered if All Any really benefits from the Survivor role. Now that these NK roles have been buffed, you're pretty much screwed if you admit to being Survivor, if you weren't already, and I don't know if the buffed roles need the "benefit" of Survivor claims to hide behind. lol At least in that game-mode.

[kyuss420]

It would be nice to give Arsonist and maybe SK a nerf that only affects them when there are multiples in the same game.

For Arsonist, I would go with "every arsonist has a separate list of doused players, and can only ignite the people who they themselves doused".

An interesting idea. It does seem that, potentially, the Arsonist has achieved the highest level of extreme power-up in "All Any" because of the possibility, nay tendency, for them to be more than one. I will say that I'm not sure if I've noticed a particular sway in favour of a specific evil role/roles, only that the additional challenge that the NK roles now pose causes the already-disadvantaged Town to collapse like a flan in the oven. It's pretty much expected in All Any for Town to spontaneously combust, now they just seem to manage it far quicker.

On a different but not-unrelated-note, I have often wondered if All Any really benefits from the Survivor role. Now that these NK roles have been buffed, you're pretty much screwed if you admit to being Survivor, if you weren't already, and I don't know if the buffed roles need the "benefit" of Survivor claims to hide behind. lol At least in that game-mode.

I havent seen an NK win with a survivor claim in months...... most surv claims get checked early, especially with NKs in game

[Serahni]

It would be nice to give Arsonist and maybe SK a nerf that only affects them when there are multiples in the same game.

For Arsonist, I would go with "every arsonist has a separate list of doused players, and can only ignite the people who they themselves doused".

An interesting idea. It does seem that, potentially, the Arsonist has achieved the highest level of extreme power-up in "All Any" because of the possibility, nay tendency, for them to be more than one. I will say that I'm not sure if I've noticed a particular sway in favour of a specific evil role/roles, only that the additional challenge that the NK roles now pose causes the already-disadvantaged Town to collapse like a flan in the oven. It's pretty much expected in All Any for Town to spontaneously combust, now they just seem to manage it far quicker.

On a different but not-unrelated-note, I have often wondered if All Any really benefits from the Survivor role. Now that these NK roles have been buffed, you're pretty much screwed if you admit to being Survivor, if you weren't already, and I don't know if the buffed roles need the "benefit" of Survivor claims to hide behind. lol At least in that game-mode.

I havent seen an NK win with a survivor claim in months...... most surv claims get checked early, especially with NKs in game

I guess that's the point though. It became such a prevalent strategy, and there's no penalty at all for hanging a Survivor anyway other than it "wastes" the day's action, or a Jailor's execute, that the only way you win as Survivor in All Any these days is if there's an Investigator willing to vouch for you. And half the time, you just end up in a Vampire game and they hang you 'just in case' anyway. Seems like a pointless role to have in that mode.

[Brilliand]

the only way you win as Survivor in All Any these days is if there's an Investigator willing to vouch for you.

Or you fakeclaim.

[Serahni]

the only way you win as Survivor in All Any these days is if there's an Investigator willing to vouch for you.

Or you fakeclaim.

I take my hat off to any who can manage it, but it seems so counter-intuitive to the idea of Survival to willingly make yourself a target. I will admit, I'm not a fan of the Survivor role anyway, I find it just leads to me not being able to play the game in any meaningful way and just dying a lot, but perhaps I'm not inventive enough.

Anyway, since making this thread, I've played a few more hours and have seen some interesting results. There is still definitely the capacity for Town to get stacked, though as per usual in the Chaos modes, they still mostly implode and have too many evil roles to locate before they all just end up in the graveyard. Quite a few people quitting if they're town still, can't decide if it's more than usual.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

the only way you win as Survivor in All Any these days is if there's an Investigator willing to vouch for you.

Or you fakeclaim.

I take my hat off to any who can manage it, but it seems so counter-intuitive to the idea of Survival to willingly make yourself a target. I will admit, I'm not a fan of the Survivor role anyway, I find it just leads to me not being able to play the game in any meaningful way and just dying a lot, but perhaps I'm not inventive enough.

Anyway, since making this thread, I've played a few more hours and have seen some interesting results. There is still definitely the capacity for Town to get stacked, though as per usual in the Chaos modes, they still mostly implode and have too many evil roles to locate before they all just end up in the graveyard. Quite a few people quitting if they're town still, can't decide if it's more than usual.

I've won before by fake claiming with Surv. It's all about knowing the situation (and getting lucky, but what isn't in A/A)?

And not claiming D1