Balance Discussions Part 2

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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Matty89190 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:46 am

I think the jailor's power as a role combined with his TPLO protection is only part of what makes it all so powerful. The (arguably more powerful) part of the meta is the instant confirming of 2-5 townies, giving town a confirmed majority.

I'd suggest making a jailor unable to be whispered to or some other Mayor-esque mechanic just to stop the process of jailor calls TPLO>LO sees TPs/Spies/Escs>LO whispers jailor>jailor has role list instantly cracked.

I'm not sure exactly how it would work as some kind of "reveal" would potentially be involved but imo that's the part of the meta that needs addressing if you want to nerf it.

Or, and this has just come to me, why not make it so an LO is unable to whisper the person they watched the previous night. This would nerf TPLO calls on anyone, and would prevent any roles from being inadvertently revealed. It wouldn't destroy the meta, but forcing a day's wait before giving the list to your target could cause some interesting dilemmas and reduce the meta's efficiency greatly.

As for the astral mafioso, all for it. It's a fair buff to an otherwise meh role to play as, but I agree that only the starting mafioso should have it.

I don't think docs should be able to heal a revealed mayor in light of this though. If they can, what real tradeoff does he face for revealing?
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:33 pm

Matty89190 wrote:If they can, what real tradeoff does he face for revealing?


Being know by evils.

It's the role's only ability, it doesn't need to have a huge downside.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Matty89190 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:40 pm

By like day 3, the majority of Townies are confirmed and known to evils anyway. Having 3 votes and the influence that comes with it is insanely powerful, and blocking whispers and heals is a fair way to balance that.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby wozearly » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:42 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Matty89190 wrote:If they can, what real tradeoff does he face for revealing?


Being know by evils.

It's the role's only ability, it doesn't need to have a huge downside.


Blocking whispers is necessary to prevent a return of "whisper games". This was the even more effective predecessor strategy to Jailors revealing D1 and calling for TP/LO, as in addition to doing that as a 100% confirmed Townie the Mayor could also insist on everyone whispering them their claims, with non-compliance punishable by execution/voting. Jailors can't quite pull that off as it is possible, albeit not without serious risk, for a scum role to claim/counterclaim Jailor on D1.

Outside of that, losing the ability to whisper is only a mild irritant. If that was the only downside, the go-to Mayor strategy would be to instantly reveal to confirm, take TP/LO and lead the Town in rapid VFR for as long as possible; basically a close cousin of the "whisper games", just not quite as brutally swift.

Preventing the Mayor from being healed means in Ranked-style games, the Mayor has a 50% chance of having no TP support, plus a 56%(ish) chance of there being no Lookout. That works as a disincentive for revealing immediately. It doesn't have to be the disincentive used, but it would need something to replace it if we took it away.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Brilliand » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:17 pm

wozearly wrote:Blocking whispers is necessary to prevent a return of "whisper games".


Right, it's a specific fix to a specific meta.

...and you're probably right that it's still necessary.

I just objected to the argument that the loss of whispers/healing is an interesting downside to the Mayor's powerful ability - those restrictions don't make much sense unless you keep in mind what problem they're trying to solve.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby wozearly » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:41 pm

Brilliand wrote:
wozearly wrote:Blocking whispers is necessary to prevent a return of "whisper games".


Right, it's a specific fix to a specific meta.

...and you're probably right that it's still necessary.

I just objected to the argument that the loss of whispers/healing is an interesting downside to the Mayor's powerful ability - those restrictions don't make much sense unless you keep in mind what problem they're trying to solve.


The loss of whispers is a deliberate anti-meta move, yes. But the Mayor's ability to confirm itself as Town creates the opportunity for that meta-strategy in the first place, so it's not necessarily possible to neatly separate the two.

The inability to be healed creates a risk-reward trade-off against early reveals - so that is, to be fair, an "interesting" downside in that it incentivises Mayors to have to consider when the optimal time to reveal is, as opposed to it always being D1.

I absolutely agree that any particular role doesn't necessarily "need" a downside, but in practice the Mayor is balanced more effectively - and more interesting to have in the game - as a result of the way the current downsides make it play compared to a Mayor without them (which was so over-influential it was hit with a very tailored nerfbat).
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:42 pm

lol sure

One issue with that

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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Matty89190 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:48 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:lol sure

One issue with that

Bodyguard


The point still stands. The disincentive remains early game since which TP is in the game isn't known, so early reveals are still discouraged, since it's essentially a 50/50 gamble.

Furthermore, a BG isn't actually as useful as a doc in terms of consistent protection. A doc can heal indefinitely while a BG is only good for preventing one attack, so in this respect, the mayor essentially loses guaranteed infinite protection by revealing no matter what (infinite as long as the doc lives anyway)

In Coven, the doc also has further advantages over the BG, since it is the only way to remove poison, so a poisoned mayor claim cannot reveal or their fate will be sealed.

I'm absolutely not saying BG is less powerful than doc; I think the two are well-balanced since killing an attacker is a huge service to the town. However, for a mayor, the doc is definitely the more useful of the two and even just by having one of the two TPs blocked, the desired effect is achieved.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:56 pm

Okay but the issue I'm referring to is balancing-wise, not player-wise

Why would you ever make something a coin toss like that
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Hellosither » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:15 pm

whispering is a stupid mechanic that shouldn't even exist in the first place
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:39 pm

Hellosither wrote:whispering is a stupid mechanic that shouldn't even exist in the first place
The problem is that with the presence of things like Witch, it's kind of necessary
Witch has no way of coordinating plans with their chosen evil ally outside of whispers (before anyone brings up death notes, that is a one way street, only the other evil has access to death notes)
Especially since people want more roles to be like Witch, rather than removing it, whispering is going to be here to stay
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:40 pm

#Orange'sWhisperOverhaul :lol:
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby Hellosither » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:54 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
Hellosither wrote:whispering is a stupid mechanic that shouldn't even exist in the first place
The problem is that with the presence of things like Witch, it's kind of necessary
Witch has no way of coordinating plans with their chosen evil ally outside of whispers (before anyone brings up death notes, that is a one way street, only the other evil has access to death notes)
Especially since people want more roles to be like Witch, rather than removing it, whispering is going to be here to stay

i fail to see how that is a necessary inclusion. you also act like it's an objective plus when it really isn't

some of the main skill inducing factors of witch are attempting to coordinate with scum via prediction, along with prediction in general. by having a mechanic that allows witch and their chosen evil buddy/s to spoon-feed each other information you mitigate the importance of the previously mentioned skill factor. given how witch already has a consig ability they already obtain a large amount of information on their own which can be utilised, why does witch need more
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby OreCreeper » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:53 am

Achilles wrote:Part 2 includes changes from the previous discussion.

Hey everyone,

Along with the coming Town Traitor game modes we are looking at doing a balancing patch when we take ranked into off-season. This will allow us to test the balance changes and propose ranked practice role lists for what will be the fifth season of ranked. The goal of this post is to open up communication and brainstorm on potential changes while we are still early in the process so that there will be time to make adjustments. Please feel free to discuss any thoughts you may have about issues with the current meta and what you would like to see going into Season 5.

Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.

Thought process: In the current meta the Jailor has no fear of announcing himself on day 1, knowing that Town Protective's and the Lookout will guard him, making it impossible for the Mafia to deal with them. If the Mafioso has 1 Ninja Attack per game it would give the Mafia an opportunity to bypass a BodyGuard/Trap on a priority role, as well as avoid detection by Lookout/Spy. An added bonus is that this gives the Mafioso something unique to help the Mafia outside of just following the Godfather's orders.

Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent.

Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).

Potential future changes
These are changes that are up in the air still. Some of these changes are not trivial and will delay how long a balance patch will take.

Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.


Mafioso: This buff is useful in some ways, but as other users have said, the Mafia can't really afford to risk an attack on jailor N1 because if there is a doctor, that's one night wasted and the doctor is automatically confirmed.

Framer: yeah this is a good buff. I still think the role should have more utility though (it should at least affect psychics).

Jailor: I don't really think jailor should get any nerfs. The role is a staple of the game and Town as a whole, and nerfing it probably isn't the best way to go.

Disguiser: I think this is fine
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Re: Balance Discussions Part 2

Postby BlastingOff » Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:03 am

OreCreeper wrote:Jailor: I don't really think jailor should get any nerfs. The role is a staple of the game and Town as a whole, and nerfing it probably isn't the best way to go.


Um, no, Jailor is definitely in need of a nerf. The fact it's a staple does not matter, being able to continuously roleblock Mafia (or other evil roles, like youngest Vamp) is a broken ability when you combine it with all its other abilities.

Regardless, it's been mentioned in the thread that making it suiciding is not the way to go.
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