Google wrote:coven weekends was a thing, but I dont think they are willing to always do that because i assume it was a way to get people to buy coven.
Nubbu wrote:As a game developer, I'd rather have people play my game than have it sit behind a paywall. If the game is dead, open it up as part of the base game and just charge 7.99 for the full game or something. I really love the coven and it's one of my top 10 DLC's of all time. It's a shame that it's dead and has been dead almost since it's launch.
Superalex11 wrote:Funny thing - it's actually the decision-making of the devs in general that's put me off from buying coven. And not decisions around coven, either. Just in general, BMG really seems to lavish in demonstrating incompetence.
It really is saddening, because if BMG were just barely more than a smidge of a better company, I absolutely would have bought coven by now.
Google wrote:Nubbu wrote:As a game developer, I'd rather have people play my game than have it sit behind a paywall. If the game is dead, open it up as part of the base game and just charge 7.99 for the full game or something. I really love the coven and it's one of my top 10 DLC's of all time. It's a shame that it's dead and has been dead almost since it's launch.
1. you arent a real game dev just because you play game dev tycoon
2. this is a business, theyd rather have money than not have money
3. how the fuck is this in your top 10 DLCs
4. why do you have a top 10 DLCs list lmao
Google wrote:Nubbu wrote:As a game developer, I'd rather have people play my game than have it sit behind a paywall. If the game is dead, open it up as part of the base game and just charge 7.99 for the full game or something. I really love the coven and it's one of my top 10 DLC's of all time. It's a shame that it's dead and has been dead almost since it's launch.
1. you arent a real game dev just because you play game dev tycoon
2. this is a business, theyd rather have money than not have money
3. how the fuck is this in your top 10 DLCs
4. why do you have a top 10 DLCs list lmao
Flavorable wrote:the paywall is still important, especially since the game is still free to play via Mobile, meaning that anyone could then start creating Mobile accounts to troll in Coven, meaning that one of the biggest reasons a lot of regulars bought Coven for to begin with (to get away from free accounts that ruin games on purpose, just to get banned and come back with another free account), is just ruined
Flavorable wrote:it'd be great if there was some way to get people to play some of the gamemodes in Coven that some people want to play, but it should never be at the expense of people who actually paid the full price for it
Flavorable wrote:their income definitely wouldn't grow from it
Flavorable wrote:I don't think a respective minority of players buying a daily deal here and there if the Devs are lucky would net them more money than the "whales" they have in Coven now
Superalex11 wrote:Flavorable wrote:the paywall is still important, especially since the game is still free to play via Mobile, meaning that anyone could then start creating Mobile accounts to troll in Coven, meaning that one of the biggest reasons a lot of regulars bought Coven for to begin with (to get away from free accounts that ruin games on purpose, just to get banned and come back with another free account), is just ruined
Solution: make mobile strictly paid as well. It's highly unlikely that the Devs are going to make Mobile strictly paid, because ad revenue is generally a bigger source of income than a couple of people buying a premium account.Flavorable wrote:it'd be great if there was some way to get people to play some of the gamemodes in Coven that some people want to play, but it should never be at the expense of people who actually paid the full price for it
I'd argue the net benefit should be the focus, not the net loss on full-payers. If having a free-weekend every once in a while means lots of regular players benefit more than the coven players who "bear the expense" lose out, I'd argue that's a goal BMG should seek to achieve. There have been free weekends. From my experience, due to the lack of players still playing the gamemodes people complain about, they didn't help. Nor did the ticket system. The only people that stuck around after free weekends and bought the game are Chaos regulars. And no, as a paying customer, the regulars definitely should carry more weight than the people who refuse to pay for the DLC, for whichever reason.Flavorable wrote:their income definitely wouldn't grow from it
Maybe not making coven outright free, but free-weekends or other minor teases are absolutely a great way to encourage people to get the game. Every time I use a few of my coven tickets in a row I get closer to just going and buying it full, only stopping because of reasons stated prior. See above, the free weekends never actually increased the amount of players for Ranked/Mafia Returns, otherwise this discussion wouldn't be happening. And no amount of free weekends will change that.Flavorable wrote:I don't think a respective minority of players buying a daily deal here and there if the Devs are lucky would net them more money than the "whales" they have in Coven now
...what "whales"? Do whales even exist in ToS at all? Coven is a one-time purchase, so I don't know what you mean here. Making changes to any aspect of the game after a player has purchased it will not result in BMG losing money from that player. The only case where BMG potentially could is in consumables (i.e. taunts and scrolls), and I don't think people are shelling out cash for those to any meaningful degree. The people I know in Coven have, on average, spent at least 100 bucks a year, if not more, on bundles, cosmetics, scrolls, etc etc. These same people will very likely stop playing Coven altogether if it is going to be overrun by free-loader Coven players that ruin their time ingame. So making the DLC free will ensure that people who don't want to spend money on it get to play a product for free whilst likely never, or hardly ever buying a bundle for real money, while a lot of people that regularly pay real money for bundles and the likes, will stop playing all together.
The point is, if BMG were to encourage more people to buy coven, more people will buy coven. Even if this harms current coven players, then going by the argument of "money first, principles and game design choices later", BMG just gains money from the new buyers, and loses nothing ($0) from the old (current) coven players. The problem isn't really BMG, though. It's easy for people to say "If you don't make your DLC free, we won't buy it", but what kind of incentive is that? It's the people themselves that spread the bad advertisement. BMG can't suddenly go and tell people "Hey, you need to buy the DLC cause some people want to play the more unpopular gamemodes, but not enough people like it.", and making the DLC free isn't going to solve that. The fact that people keep saying "The DLC is dead", just because there's basically 2 gamemodes (Ranked and Mafia Returns) that need a get together on discord or the sorts. Cause you know what? All the people saying that are what's turning new players away from even buying the DLC. Heck, if anything, even in this thread I've seen people say "I would buy it, but it needs more people, but since it doesn't have more people, I don't want to buy it and get more people." That's counterintuitive as heck. And that's simply what keeps happening. In the end, the mouth to mouth advertisement because of 2 gamemodes is horrible, and now the people who like those gamemodes, who keep telling people NOT to buy the game because there's not enough people there,want the Devs to give it away for free instead. In my opinion, that would just be horrid business practice. If anything, the people who want to play those gamemodes should probably think of a different strategy to get those gamemodes running instead of actively telling people not to buy the game to play those exact gamemodes there's too few people for.
Flavorable wrote:Superalex11 wrote:Flavorable wrote:the paywall is still important, especially since the game is still free to play via Mobile, meaning that anyone could then start creating Mobile accounts to troll in Coven, meaning that one of the biggest reasons a lot of regulars bought Coven for to begin with (to get away from free accounts that ruin games on purpose, just to get banned and come back with another free account), is just ruined
Solution: make mobile strictly paid as well. It's highly unlikely that the Devs are going to make Mobile strictly paid, because ad revenue is generally a bigger source of income than a couple of people buying a premium account.Flavorable wrote:it'd be great if there was some way to get people to play some of the gamemodes in Coven that some people want to play, but it should never be at the expense of people who actually paid the full price for it
I'd argue the net benefit should be the focus, not the net loss on full-payers. If having a free-weekend every once in a while means lots of regular players benefit more than the coven players who "bear the expense" lose out, I'd argue that's a goal BMG should seek to achieve. There have been free weekends. From my experience, due to the lack of players still playing the gamemodes people complain about, they didn't help. Nor did the ticket system. The only people that stuck around after free weekends and bought the game are Chaos regulars. And no, as a paying customer, the regulars definitely should carry more weight than the people who refuse to pay for the DLC, for whichever reason.Flavorable wrote:their income definitely wouldn't grow from it
Maybe not making coven outright free, but free-weekends or other minor teases are absolutely a great way to encourage people to get the game. Every time I use a few of my coven tickets in a row I get closer to just going and buying it full, only stopping because of reasons stated prior. See above, the free weekends never actually increased the amount of players for Ranked/Mafia Returns, otherwise this discussion wouldn't be happening. And no amount of free weekends will change that.Flavorable wrote:I don't think a respective minority of players buying a daily deal here and there if the Devs are lucky would net them more money than the "whales" they have in Coven now
...what "whales"? Do whales even exist in ToS at all? Coven is a one-time purchase, so I don't know what you mean here. Making changes to any aspect of the game after a player has purchased it will not result in BMG losing money from that player. The only case where BMG potentially could is in consumables (i.e. taunts and scrolls), and I don't think people are shelling out cash for those to any meaningful degree. The people I know in Coven have, on average, spent at least 100 bucks a year, if not more, on bundles, cosmetics, scrolls, etc etc. These same people will very likely stop playing Coven altogether if it is going to be overrun by free-loader Coven players that ruin their time ingame. So making the DLC free will ensure that people who don't want to spend money on it get to play a product for free whilst likely never, or hardly ever buying a bundle for real money, while a lot of people that regularly pay real money for bundles and the likes, will stop playing all together.
The point is, if BMG were to encourage more people to buy coven, more people will buy coven. Even if this harms current coven players, then going by the argument of "money first, principles and game design choices later", BMG just gains money from the new buyers, and loses nothing ($0) from the old (current) coven players. The problem isn't really BMG, though. It's easy for people to say "If you don't make your DLC free, we won't buy it", but what kind of incentive is that? It's the people themselves that spread the bad advertisement. BMG can't suddenly go and tell people "Hey, you need to buy the DLC cause some people want to play the more unpopular gamemodes, but not enough people like it.", and making the DLC free isn't going to solve that. The fact that people keep saying "The DLC is dead", just because there's basically 2 gamemodes (Ranked and Mafia Returns) that need a get together on discord or the sorts. Cause you know what? All the people saying that are what's turning new players away from even buying the DLC. Heck, if anything, even in this thread I've seen people say "I would buy it, but it needs more people, but since it doesn't have more people, I don't want to buy it and get more people." That's counterintuitive as heck. And that's simply what keeps happening. In the end, the mouth to mouth advertisement because of 2 gamemodes is horrible, and now the people who like those gamemodes, who keep telling people NOT to buy the game because there's not enough people there,want the Devs to give it away for free instead. In my opinion, that would just be horrid business practice. If anything, the people who want to play those gamemodes should probably think of a different strategy to get those gamemodes running instead of actively telling people not to buy the game to play those exact gamemodes there's too few people for.
Responses in red.
kyuss420 wrote:hmmm so it took 10 minutes to queue for CAA on a saturday night? Pity everyone went out instead of playing ToS, or you may have queued faster....
The way I see it, coven players on average, have a fair few games up their sleeves. (Unlike me, who had a bunch of friends playing coven when I started, so bought the DLC on the first day to play with them.) So it would be fair to assume that most people have played 100 games of classic before deciding to buy the DLC.
After you have reached the 500 games mark, you tend to have picked up a few things, like how the coven operates, so you can kind of predict what plays they are going to make at night. Same with town, you know where the TP should be, you know roughly who should be getting tracked/RBed/Investigated etc.
The problem with classic modes, like Mafia Returns, is that once you know the above mentioned plays (which the majority of the regular players do), the gameplay tends to become stale, repetitive and quite boring.
I see no reason why they should make the DLC free, to fill a couple of modes that players will be bored with within a month... leading to the same situation that the OP has now (just look at Dracs Palace - filled easily for 6 months, now lucky to fill the lobby in 20 minutes)
Nubbu wrote:kyuss420 wrote:hmmm so it took 10 minutes to queue for CAA on a saturday night? Pity everyone went out instead of playing ToS, or you may have queued faster....
The way I see it, coven players on average, have a fair few games up their sleeves. (Unlike me, who had a bunch of friends playing coven when I started, so bought the DLC on the first day to play with them.) So it would be fair to assume that most people have played 100 games of classic before deciding to buy the DLC.
After you have reached the 500 games mark, you tend to have picked up a few things, like how the coven operates, so you can kind of predict what plays they are going to make at night. Same with town, you know where the TP should be, you know roughly who should be getting tracked/RBed/Investigated etc.
The problem with classic modes, like Mafia Returns, is that once you know the above mentioned plays (which the majority of the regular players do), the gameplay tends to become stale, repetitive and quite boring.
I see no reason why they should make the DLC free, to fill a couple of modes that players will be bored with within a month... leading to the same situation that the OP has now (just look at Dracs Palace - filled easily for 6 months, now lucky to fill the lobby in 20 minutes)
I have to disagree with you there. RP is still a heavily populated game mode even though it is predictable as all hell. But that's neither here nor there.
Would you say that making the classic modes f2p while keeping the rest of the DLC p2p would be a good idea? I just can't imagine that anyone that creates something would want it to lay in a state of desolation.
Maybe it shouldn't be free to play. But the base game itself used to be free to play and in order to play coven you only had to pay €4.99. Now you have to pay €4.99 for a free to play game. Not a lot of people are willing to buy DLC in a game that used to be f2p and I can't imagine sales numbers even exist for the DLC at this point.
It just sucks that there are game modes that people want to play but can't because they're dead and the dev's don't actively want to do anything about it.
Flavorable wrote:It's highly unlikely that the Devs are going to make Mobile strictly paid, because ad revenue is generally a bigger source of income than a couple of people buying a premium account.
Flavorable wrote:There have been free weekends. From my experience, due to the lack of players still playing the gamemodes people complain about, they didn't help.
Flavorable wrote:Nor did the ticket system.
Flavorable wrote:The only people that stuck around after free weekends and bought the game are Chaos regulars
Flavorable wrote:as a paying customer, the regulars definitely should carry more weight than the people who refuse to pay for the DLC, for whichever reason.
Flavorable wrote:the free weekends never actually increased the amount of players for Ranked/Mafia Returns
Flavorable wrote:The people I know in Coven have, on average, spent at least 100 bucks a year, if not more, on bundles, cosmetics, scrolls, etc etc.
Flavorable wrote:These same people will very likely stop playing Coven altogether if it is going to be overrun by free-loader Coven players that ruin their time ingame.
Flavorable wrote:The problem isn't really BMG, though.
Flavorable wrote:It's easy for people to say "If you don't make your DLC free, we won't buy it", but what kind of incentive is that?
Flavorable wrote:BMG can't suddenly go and tell people "Hey, you need to buy the DLC cause some people want to play the more unpopular gamemodes, but not enough people like it."
Flavorable wrote:All the people saying that are what's turning new players away from even buying the DLC.
Flavorable wrote:I've seen people say "I would buy it, but it needs more people, but since it doesn't have more people, I don't want to buy it and get more people." That's counterintuitive as heck.
Nubbu wrote:Maybe F2P isn't the way to go, but I think that most people that already own The Coven DLC would like something to be done would be a fair statement to make.
kyuss420 wrote:hmmm so it took 10 minutes to queue for CAA on a saturday night? Pity everyone went out instead of playing ToS, or you may have queued faster....
kyuss420 wrote:The problem with classic modes, like Mafia Returns, is that once you know the above mentioned plays (which the majority of the regular players do), the gameplay tends to become stale, repetitive and quite boring.
Nubbu wrote:Would you say that making the classic modes f2p while keeping the rest of the DLC p2p would be a good idea?
Flavorable wrote:I keep seeing people saying "the Devs don't actively want to do anything about it" and I have to dispute that.
Flavorable wrote:The only thing the Devs don't actively want to do, is give away something for free that they've worked very hard on
Flavorable wrote:Nubbu wrote:kyuss420 wrote:hmmm so it took 10 minutes to queue for CAA on a saturday night? Pity everyone went out instead of playing ToS, or you may have queued faster....
The way I see it, coven players on average, have a fair few games up their sleeves. (Unlike me, who had a bunch of friends playing coven when I started, so bought the DLC on the first day to play with them.) So it would be fair to assume that most people have played 100 games of classic before deciding to buy the DLC.
After you have reached the 500 games mark, you tend to have picked up a few things, like how the coven operates, so you can kind of predict what plays they are going to make at night. Same with town, you know where the TP should be, you know roughly who should be getting tracked/RBed/Investigated etc.
The problem with classic modes, like Mafia Returns, is that once you know the above mentioned plays (which the majority of the regular players do), the gameplay tends to become stale, repetitive and quite boring.
I see no reason why they should make the DLC free, to fill a couple of modes that players will be bored with within a month... leading to the same situation that the OP has now (just look at Dracs Palace - filled easily for 6 months, now lucky to fill the lobby in 20 minutes)
I have to disagree with you there. RP is still a heavily populated game mode even though it is predictable as all hell. But that's neither here nor there.
Would you say that making the classic modes f2p while keeping the rest of the DLC p2p would be a good idea? I just can't imagine that anyone that creates something would want it to lay in a state of desolation.
Maybe it shouldn't be free to play. But the base game itself used to be free to play and in order to play coven you only had to pay €4.99. Now you have to pay €4.99 for a free to play game. Not a lot of people are willing to buy DLC in a game that used to be f2p and I can't imagine sales numbers even exist for the DLC at this point.
It just sucks that there are game modes that people want to play but can't because they're dead and the dev's don't actively want to do anything about it.
Actually, Coven has always been 10 dollars, but people on Steam got a 5 dollar discount, because they already paid 5 dollars for the base-game.
Also, I keep seeing people saying "the Devs don't actively want to do anything about it" and I have to dispute that. The only thing the Devs don't actively want to do, is give away something for free that they've worked very hard on, which is very understandable and a very reasonable thing not to want to do.
Nubbu wrote:Flavorable wrote:Nubbu wrote:kyuss420 wrote:hmmm so it took 10 minutes to queue for CAA on a saturday night? Pity everyone went out instead of playing ToS, or you may have queued faster....
The way I see it, coven players on average, have a fair few games up their sleeves. (Unlike me, who had a bunch of friends playing coven when I started, so bought the DLC on the first day to play with them.) So it would be fair to assume that most people have played 100 games of classic before deciding to buy the DLC.
After you have reached the 500 games mark, you tend to have picked up a few things, like how the coven operates, so you can kind of predict what plays they are going to make at night. Same with town, you know where the TP should be, you know roughly who should be getting tracked/RBed/Investigated etc.
The problem with classic modes, like Mafia Returns, is that once you know the above mentioned plays (which the majority of the regular players do), the gameplay tends to become stale, repetitive and quite boring.
I see no reason why they should make the DLC free, to fill a couple of modes that players will be bored with within a month... leading to the same situation that the OP has now (just look at Dracs Palace - filled easily for 6 months, now lucky to fill the lobby in 20 minutes)
I have to disagree with you there. RP is still a heavily populated game mode even though it is predictable as all hell. But that's neither here nor there.
Would you say that making the classic modes f2p while keeping the rest of the DLC p2p would be a good idea? I just can't imagine that anyone that creates something would want it to lay in a state of desolation.
Maybe it shouldn't be free to play. But the base game itself used to be free to play and in order to play coven you only had to pay €4.99. Now you have to pay €4.99 for a free to play game. Not a lot of people are willing to buy DLC in a game that used to be f2p and I can't imagine sales numbers even exist for the DLC at this point.
It just sucks that there are game modes that people want to play but can't because they're dead and the dev's don't actively want to do anything about it.
Actually, Coven has always been 10 dollars, but people on Steam got a 5 dollar discount, because they already paid 5 dollars for the base-game.
Also, I keep seeing people saying "the Devs don't actively want to do anything about it" and I have to dispute that. The only thing the Devs don't actively want to do, is give away something for free that they've worked very hard on, which is very understandable and a very reasonable thing not to want to do.
I had no clue it was €10 normally, thanks for letting me know. And I guess I should redact that statement as I don't actually know any of the dev's or keep up with what they are doing so that was kind of out of line. My bad. :L But I have to say, I've been playing since 2015 and almost nothing has changed in the last year or so. We haven't even had a ranked season in forever. If the dev's were a bit more open about things and not just brainstorming on their own (if that is the case), say, a poll to see how people would feel about 'x' or 'y' solutions, it would help a lot of people to see the game as anything other than declining.
Flavorable wrote:"The game is dead" doesn't help anyone
Superalex11 wrote:.
Superalex11 wrote:Flavorable wrote:"The game is dead" doesn't help anyone
Actually, I think the more that people warn others from this game (at least validly), the better. If the number of sales of coven drops enough (or revenue in general), BMG will be forced to take a serious look at themselves and the game. At that point, they won't be able to ignore it (unless, of course, they never cared in the first place and would be willing to let the game die at that point).
It's the whole idea around the phrase "vote with your wallet". If BMG won't listen to the community on twitter, reddit, discord, or even here, their own forums, then our last resort will be their revenue stream.
kyuss420 wrote:Superalex11 wrote:Flavorable wrote:"The game is dead" doesn't help anyone
Actually, I think the more that people warn others from this game (at least validly), the better. If the number of sales of coven drops enough (or revenue in general), BMG will be forced to take a serious look at themselves and the game. At that point, they won't be able to ignore it (unless, of course, they never cared in the first place and would be willing to let the game die at that point).
It's the whole idea around the phrase "vote with your wallet". If BMG won't listen to the community on twitter, reddit, discord, or even here, their own forums, then our last resort will be their revenue stream.
That actually is how games die XD Ive seen it happen. Just because something isnt selling, a business wont give it away for free. Its like youre saying if no one buys taunts BMG will have to make them free. Is the pirate map free yet?
kyuss420 wrote:That actually is how games die XD Ive seen it happen.
kyuss420 wrote:Just because something isnt selling, a business wont give it away for free. Its like youre saying if no one buys taunts BMG will have to make them free. Is the pirate map free yet?
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