Stop This Mentality

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Stop This Mentality

Postby Tailslover13 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:52 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-kp-C4P1ow

Coming to you from my favorite Town Of Salem YouTube player, whom I've had the honor of playing with several times, ShadowBeatz shares a game where a piece of shit Godfather acts all high and mighty and refuses to give a Jester a win! A Jester who sided with mafia in a 4-3 split that won them the game. Go ahead and watch, and hopefully you feel as much rage as I did watching this bullshit.

But, in general, this mentality needs to stop. Listen to me. None of you are the boss of anyone else in this community. You are nobody's mother, or father, or teacher. Stop talking down to others, treating them like they're beneath you, and acting like pieces of shit if you feel like it. One day you'll have to grow up eventually, or life will hit you so hard and you won't be ready for it and you're in for a world of hurt. You are playing a stupid online game. It has no bearing on your personal life. Stop treating your fellow human beings and players like trash. Stop lording over them and showing off your true colors. I don't care what your stupid mentality is. I don't care what your elo is. I don't care if you've given the game $1,000 dollars for some reason. I don't care how many wins you have. I don't give a shit about ANY of it. What I DO care about is the most important thing you should remember going into a game: HAVE FUN!

Having fun does not mean withholding wins from Jesters or Executioners because "they didn't earn it", because giving someone a win will really affect your poor, fragile ego. Having fun does not mean hanging a Witch at the end just to spite her simply because she attempted to help the NK instead of mafia, because "you were against us, so now you pay", like a true piece of shit human being. Having fun does not mean typing out racist usernames because you "think it's funny". Having fun does not mean leaving games nonstop just because you're mafia. Just stop this. It needs to stop.

I want everyone reading this to do an exercise. The next game you go into a Town Of Salem, ask yourself one question: why am I here? If the answer is anything OTHER than "to try and enjoy myself", you should probably leave before you get into the actual game. Also, try to remember one important fact: behind those embarrassing, childish usernames you see in the game are other actual human beings with emotions and feelings. Who knows what they might be going through today? Who knows what winning and feeling good about themselves might do for their mindset and heart? Who knows how nice they might actually be when the game is over? Check yourselves at the door and try to remember that it's a game. That's all I ask.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:16 pm

oh shit he made a new video
I don't even understand the mentality behind refusing to "give Jester a win". Is it infatuation with being subersive? "People generally agree that hanging the Jester when they helped you win is a nice thing to do, so I'm going to not do it so I can be unique"?

Not to mention the practical implications for both the Jester and the faction he chooses to work with. It really feels as though people like Apyr are shooting themselves in the foot for the sake of... something. Can't tell for the life of me what that something is, but it's apparently more important than upholding a mutually beneficial alliance and generally being a decent person.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:58 pm

This would be better off being posted in ToS Discussion. It's certainly not a nice thing to do, but it's an example of why roles like jester should attempt to achieve their win in a more conventional and less diplomatic way.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:33 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:This would be better off being posted in ToS Discussion. It's certainly not a nice thing to do, but it's an example of why roles like jester should attempt to achieve their win in a more conventional and less diplomatic way.


yup, maf owes no allegiance to anyone but the mafia, same as town owes no allegiance to anyone but town. If your whole strategy as winning as a neutral is hoping a rival faction will ''be nice'', then youre using the wrong strategy. If youre jester and have ended up in a kingmaker situation, youve stuffed up somewhere.

So many games Ive seen town throw away the win because they wanted to let the pirate get a last plunder for ''helping''. Throwing the game so a neutral can win... but at least they were ''nice'' I guess....
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby Brilliand » Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:10 pm

Tailslover13 wrote:Listen to me. None of you are the boss of anyone else in this community. You are nobody's mother, or father, or teacher. Stop talking down to others,


And because you hold this opinion so strongly, you are now... talking down to others?

I found the OP quite confusing to read; it was like you were arguing on both sides of the issue at the same time, and somehow thinking that your statements all agreed with each other.

-----

I seldom watch ShadowBeatz, precisely because I hate watching him rage at people who don't play the way he wants them to. It looks to me like you're currently engrossed in trying to support ShadowBeatz' opinion, while your actual arguments are those of someone who is happy to let everyone play the way they want to (no pressure). I'm inclined to think the picture your arguments paint is more likely to be the real you.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby KatiyaKramer » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:59 am

A Jester is supposed to come up with some clever way of getting town to lynch them, not sit back as a neutral and hope for a pity lynch at the end. I don't agree with giving Jesters pity lynches, and I never will because that's not how the role is meant to be played. They do need to earn the lynch by tricking others into killing them. Giving them a pity lynch is just encouraging a lazy play style.

I completely agree with IceClimbers, Kyuss and Brilland about this 100%.

EDIT: I just want to add that I have been, on multiple occasions, a jester who made it to the end and while some mafia tried to give me a pity lynch, others just wanted to end the game. I didn't feel robbed or like trash because of it. I shrugged my shoulders and accepted that I just didn't try hard enough to get lynched properly, and vowed to do better next time. You need to earn a win to deserve a win.
Last edited by KatiyaKramer on Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby Meteorite21 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:09 am

why is this not on ToS discussion? Either way Jesters who just get lynched didn't really play the way jester is supposed to play
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby Soulshade55r » Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:54 pm

I honestly don't care either way if jester gets lynched or not as town, mafia or neutral I will follow my objective, I won't purposely kill jesters instead of town but I will kill them if they are the only kill option to end the game eailer.

I hate how people feel obligated to help neutrals out, it's a game of deduction and deception
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby PolyesterHomes » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:42 pm

The only reason a Jester should win is if they duped everyone in the game into lynching them. They're a Neutral Evil faction, they're aligned against the town. They are not a tool for another faction to barter with. They need to earn their win just like everyone else.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby James2 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:55 pm

No one owes you anything. If you didn't earn a win yourself, no one is obliged to give one to you.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:27 pm

This post has inspired me. As a Godfather, the next time a jester claims, it's on sight provided I can spare the kill.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby Cataracts » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:29 pm

I find it kinda whiney when people sit there and act like they deserve to win. That's like town being nice and giving mafia a win because they 'deserve' it...or maf giving sk a win because they 'deserve' it. I think under no circumstance should anyone be obligated to assist another role. I personally never trust jesters or executioners, because that isn't smart. I don't know them, they owe me nothing, I owe them nothing.

Being a dick is one thing, but not giving jester a win because they ask is sorta ridiculous to cry about..
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby LayleCB » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:55 am

I get being upset when evils don't give jesters/exes the win, but like you said... at some point life's going to hit you really hard and you'll realize that this is an online game. Go roll around in your salt pool for a bit and get over it if you didn't get the win as jester. Sometimes jesters/exes should be more active and get their win through their own means rather than relying on evils, because that's always dicey. I've learned that the hard way. You're saying that players shouldn't "lord over" anybody, but aren't you kind of doing the same thing, by telling them how they should feel about the game and what kind of attitude they should have going in.

I get your point about having fun, but Town of Salem isn't necessarily one of those games you start up to mess around and just simply have fun in. It's not one of those games where you're nice to everybody despite not really being on the same teams. It's a more competitive experience, and people are sweaty about winning. To that end, Evils aren't obligated to give Neutrals the win. Even if they helped the Evils out a bit, that doesn't mean the Evils have to lynch them or their target. Mafia's goal is for their own team to win. Not anybody else. Sometimes that means lynching the last town instead of the jester to reach that goal faster. It sucks, and some people are toxic about it, but that's just how it is.

Sometimes other players will be toxic, and if you can't handle that, then you should probably close the game before you find a match. I try not to hold it against someone if they don't play optimally, but you can bet your ass I'll be a little toxic if somebody in the game is a confirmed town role and they're refusing to cooperate with other town members or intentionally do something that hurts the town. You're sheriff and thought you were important enough to demand TPLO over the jailor, and jailor died because of it? Or you fake-claimed jailor as a town role and ended up having the jailor execute you? Forgive me if I seem like I'm trying to be somebody's father or teacher, but sometimes people need to be told when they're making a bad move.

Oh, and I'd lynch a witch too if I were mafia and they actively helped the NK and screwed over mafia. If it was something like they just covered for the NK, then there's not much wrong with that, but conspiring against the mafia isn't something I'd let slide, and I wouldn't have that witch win with us. Besides, who's to say that if we leave the witch alive she won't witch the godfather into attacking another mafia member? And if I'm witch I'll refuse to side with mafia if they consistently blackmail or otherwise mess with me, knowing I was the witch. I have had it happen where mafia consistently blackmailed me for three nights even though I came out to them in whispers, so I didn't lift a finger to help them and let the NK win.

Town of Salem is a tough game, nobody is obligated to be nice to each other or give other people the win.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby erd716 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:15 am

I don't understand what the problem is with "giving the jester a win." Some would call that "gamethrowing" because giving the Jester a win technically violates the main objective of your team, Mafia or not. That's the equivalent of giving the Serial Killer a win (both Neutral.)

If the Mafia decides to leave because they are about to lose, that should be on them and the members within the team. The fact that the Jester misses out of getting hanged is, in my opinion, superfluous.

So the reason for all the anger here is because the jester didn't get a win? I'm sorry but I just don't see how this is relevant feedback.

9 out of 10 games as Jester, I lose and I only have myself to blame. That idea that the town "Didn't give me the win" never once crossed my mind. As jester, you play with your own best interests in mind. Same goes for any other role in this game, team, solo, or otherwise.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby TechnoMotown » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:25 am

Unfortunately, this is a completely valid thing to do. Just as the Jester does not owe mafia anything the mafia likewise does not owe the jester a win when they didn't earn if they don't want to. It is mean, but as you said the game does not really matter and has no bearing on anyone's personal life so if people choose to play this way, then they are completely within their right to do so.
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby Cataracts » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:32 pm

TechnoMotown wrote:Unfortunately, this is a completely valid thing to do. Just as the Jester does not owe mafia anything the mafia likewise does not owe the jester a win when they didn't earn if they don't want to. It is mean, but as you said the game does not really matter and has no bearing on anyone's personal life so if people choose to play this way, then they are completely within their right to do so.




My favourite is when the jester is a complete dick the entire game, but then demands a win at the end/acts like the town is a mess if they don't get it...
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Re: Stop This Mentality

Postby Parallax7 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:46 pm

This is actually so true, yet I’ve yet to have laughed harder at a feedback post. God speed brother.
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