Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Virtue's Last Dangan Ronpa

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Cyantic » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:36 pm

yeah, that's why i said it was unrelated. it's a good example but not necessarily practical. you can try to frontload this a bit with a few ideas, some which i might be using in ZTD even though it will not have an A/B game. i'm not sure entirely to what degree i want to share this vs keep it a surprise, but experimenting around with the first phase to create these emotional bonds feels like a good first step towards making betrayal more viable. also nelly can fight me on whether thats realistic or not
Spoiler: Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Cyantic
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:39 pm

Nellyfox wrote:
I walk into a sandwich shop and order a turkey sandwich. I'm waiting for my order as several other people order after me. They call out that my turkey sandwich is ready and a man grabs it and leaves. That's my turkey sandwich and so I leave the sandwich shop, follow him, then beat him up for stealing my sandwich.

I'm in class working on a group project that is going well. I overhear another group that's bickering because one person hasn't written his part of the essay. I walk over to the group and stab the slacker with my pencil and then elect myself to watch over that group to make sure the slacker does his work.

My sister enters my room while I'm not home to look for something and ends up knocking over a lamp I was quite fond of (it's my only source of light, how could she!). When I come home and find out, after she apologies I beat her up until she's unconscious.


I get what you're saying but none of these analogies work when betrayal brings a person closer to death. Imagine the following scenario:

You and a group of 9 people are side by side with ropes tied to yourselves and a heavy weight. If you all work together, you can quite easily all get out of there by walking to the finish line. Simple, easy, and effective. However, you have the choice to use a phone on your person to put some of your weights on somebody else, forcing them back, and potentially getting them closer to death. This will cause your weight to be lighter. The target changes every minute or so, therefore its unlikely you'll be given the same person twice. Everyone has this choice as well. Furthermore, when a person or group of people escapes, everyone left behind dies instantly.

By choosing to put a weight on me, you are bringing me closer to death, and making it MUCH less likely that i'll escape. Because of this, you are no longer simply giving me a minor inconvenience. You are in fact threatening my life. Therefore, if I had a gun on me and the confidence to not fall over, I would absolutely use it to take your life as retribution. At worst, I committed a murder against someone who brought me closer to death unnecessarily. At best, I save everyone else the trouble of dealing with a sociopath that would willingly bring someone closer to death just to escape a few seconds earlier. Of course nobody's going to bat a eye at my manuever, you brought me closer to death. It is entirely rational for me to take yours. It's arguably self defense. If I did the same to somebody, I would absolutely expect them to murder me.

TL;DR:

If you betray people during a life or death situation you deserve no mercy.
"Whisper in the dark. The battle may yet be won."
User avatar
PolyesterHomes
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:08 pm
Location: This Post

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Nellyfox » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:50 pm

Well it's good that none of the analogies work on the prospect on being life threatening cause that's not what they were aiming to do. Furthermore, being betrayed in most VLDR cases is NOT life threatening because the group refuses to see people fall under 0 BP. To this day there have been no more than 3 BP related deaths: two of these are mine (As we Fall and U.P.O.) and one of these was Ender's (VLDR2). I do not believe there are any other times this has occurred.

When a betrayal happens, the betrayee gets beat up as per my analogies. The betrayed is put in a scenario where they will be able to step away from teetering on the edge of death. Therefore the analogies still work, because the situation isn't lifethreatening to begin with.

Cyantic wrote:i heavily disagree with nelly's assessment. there is every reason to ally in a serious, real life situation. these people are humans just like you, and while they might be strangers, that doesn't mean throwing them away is the logical choice. sure, you run that risk, but you also have to acknowledge that these are people too, and betraying and leaving someone to die is... not exactly that great? at all? it's different in a game, but it is by no means the logical answer to betray. equally, you're seriously running a risk by letting these people live in such a 'real' situation. they could get everyone killed if you don't do anything - such extremism is probably rather justified! this is still a very logical and self consistent outlook to have - and really, it's probably the kind of outlook one wants people to have, a positive 'we're all gonna get out of here' attitude. not the same thing as making an interesting game, but it does irk me that the argument that 'betrayal is the only logical option' is really flawed

the ab game can sometimes feel like a formality but can rarely shake up the game in a huge way (CBS) and i'd kind of like that to happen more. give people more reasons to have this jumbled mess - sure, they betrayed, but they told you about their kid and how they're afraid of what happens if they leave, and you worked well together. can you really do that to them? especially if you don't know the person who allied... you can construct a narrative that way. lof hits upon a really good point that betraying can only be so strong because the game should probably last for a decent while - that's what people signed up for, anyway! it's a bit of a balancing act in that players can't leave too soon or possibly cut drastically short the game, but the benefits for betrayal are also weaker for it. more time means all the more reason someone's going to beat you over the head with a lead pipe

There are people who would counter your first paragraph completely (Alice). Two sides to every coin. You can disagree to my assessment and we're still both right because of the wonderfully vast natures of people out there.

But some people just do not play the natures of their characters correctly. Verochka should have betrayed; it should not have been up to random chance there.

Also for the record, no one really goes into a game thinking "Wow I'm going to kill a bunch of people", even in VLR, characters say they're going to go get help when escaping. They just don't want to be trapped there anymore.
User avatar
Nellyfox
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 9507
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 12:04 pm
Location: Glass Workstation

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:52 pm

Nellyfox wrote:Well it's good that none of the analogies work on the prospect on being life threatening cause that's not what they were aiming to do. Furthermore, being betrayed in most VLDR cases is NOT life threatening because the group refuses to see people fall under 0 BP. To this day there have been no more than 3 BP related deaths: two of these are mine (As we Fall and U.P.O.) and one of these was Ender's (VLDR2). I do not believe there are any other times this has occurred.

When a betrayal happens, the betrayee gets beat up as per my analogies. The betrayed is put in a scenario where they will be able to step away from teetering on the edge of death. Therefore the analogies still work, because the situation isn't lifethreatening to begin with.


But it IS life threatening. If there's only one group that can escape, then being late is going to get the person that falled behind killed. Imagine you have four points and somebody takes 3 through betrayal. Are you really going to tell me that then didn't bring you about 75% closer to dying minimum, before escaping comes into play?
"Whisper in the dark. The battle may yet be won."
User avatar
PolyesterHomes
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:08 pm
Location: This Post

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Nellyfox » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Yes, because people group together to delay escape until every living person has enough points. There are so many games you can look at to prove this one.
User avatar
Nellyfox
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 9507
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 12:04 pm
Location: Glass Workstation

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Cyantic » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:55 pm

games typically end with those left behind ending up dead - not stuck in limbo like it is in VLR. also one could argue that verochka betraying wouldn't be possible because she would end up hitting evil, and with that, she would end up having to go back and do a bunch of positive things anyway, so ultimately despite the fact that i was being horribly indecisive, it was the 'right' choice from the game's perspective. not criticising the idea insomuch as that verochka couldn't be the designated evil character in the game
Spoiler: Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Cyantic
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:57 pm

Nellyfox wrote:Yes, because people group together to delay escape until every living person has enough points. There are so many games you can look at to prove this one.


...that's true. I'd make a argument about trusting your lives to strangers but that's what you do by allying. The argument still applies to games that have limited amounts of voting phases.
"Whisper in the dark. The battle may yet be won."
User avatar
PolyesterHomes
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:08 pm
Location: This Post

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Nellyfox » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:58 pm

From a character standpoint Verochka should have betrayed. You couldn't have known your evil wincon was "you're actually not supposed to be evil" so hindsight is 20/20, and considering the wincon reveal happened lategame it's irrelevant to the situation in the first place.

As far as the characters in a game know, they don't instantly die when that escape door closes. In AO no one would have died. They died in UPOPU and I still don't get it but not my game.
User avatar
Nellyfox
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 9507
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 12:04 pm
Location: Glass Workstation

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Cyantic » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:02 pm

In UaS, you would die if you did not get off the space station. N3 was a video setup, while UPOPU killed those left behind. Nosedive and SUaD have time limits, CBS the plane was literally crashing, and GTH was an odd case. Most games operate that if you don't escape, you die. I think we're all mostly focusing on the typical trend of 'if you don't escape, it's over'.
Spoiler: Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Cyantic
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:04 pm

Cyantic wrote:In UaS, you would die if you did not get off the space station. N3 was a video setup, while UPOPU killed those left behind. Nosedive and SUaD have time limits, CBS the plane was literally crashing, and GTH was an odd case. Most games operate that if you don't escape, you die. I think we're all mostly focusing on the typical trend of 'if you don't escape, it's over'.

A lot of recent cases have featured death after being left behind. That's why I operated with that mindset.
"Whisper in the dark. The battle may yet be won."
User avatar
PolyesterHomes
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:08 pm
Location: This Post

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:10 pm

PolyesterHomes wrote:
Cyantic wrote:In UaS, you would die if you did not get off the space station. N3 was a video setup, while UPOPU killed those left behind. Nosedive and SUaD have time limits, CBS the plane was literally crashing, and GTH was an odd case. Most games operate that if you don't escape, you die. I think we're all mostly focusing on the typical trend of 'if you don't escape, it's over'.

A lot of recent cases have featured death after being left behind. That's why I operated with that mindset.

Most cases do Nelly is being a gifted child
Image

Hall of Fame
Spoiler:
Shino Thomson
Image
Federico Decandia
Image
Clayton (Briah)
Image
Gebura Briah
User avatar
ChubbyMooshroom9
FM Awards: Town
FM Awards: Town
 
Posts: 1376
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:31 pm
Location: Ethiopia

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby LordofFail » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:59 pm

Games are typically if you do not escape, you're dead.
"The Hardest Game to Win is a Won Game"

~~ Emanuel Lasker ~~


Mystery Link
User avatar
LordofFail
[Forum Mafia I] Winner
[Forum Mafia I] Winner
 
Posts: 1544
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:46 am
Location: Earth, 12 Milky Way Drive, Known Universe

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:41 pm

Allying is always best given no one has betrayed yet or you don’t have strong reason to believe your opponent will betray. This is simply because betraying one person leads to a domino affect that leads back into you in turn getting betrayed. Which is ignoring the completely valid reasons people have to kill you now and the fact you have almost no chance of successfully betraying twice in a row.

Heres an interesting proposal, what if we highly incentived betraying to such a degree that almost everyone always betrays?
Like betraying immediately grants you the ability to leave and you can make actions to run for it right after results are posted. Allying would garner points as normal and double betrays would have harsher punishments. This would make it so almost no one allies meaning everyone starts a natural death spiral to zero points unless someone gets lucky and successfuly betrays. This would mean allying would be almost required to be set up personally due to the huge penalty for a single failure. Which would then be a game of chicken for geting the first betrayal off. The only alternative would essentially be to kill everyone but thats fairly unveiable to do for most characters. In this set up allowing players to pick their opponent and making it 1v1 would be ideal.
Nice To Meet You Friendo!
User avatar
TheNiceOne16
Jester
Jester
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby IAmAMunchlax » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:19 pm

As chaotic as this sounds then there would be no reason to Ally at that point.
User avatar
IAmAMunchlax
Halloween 2015 Winner
Halloween 2015 Winner
 
Posts: 1445
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:11 pm
Location: ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨ ⁨

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Cyantic » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:03 am

i don't think i'd mind that, actually. betrayal gets you -1 and -1 if you both betray each other. that would dramatically shift the game - i'm not sure it should be a mainstay, but i think it would be really fun to look at
Spoiler: Image
Image
Image
User avatar
Cyantic
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:36 pm

Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby TheNiceOne16 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:13 pm

IAmAMunchlax wrote:As chaotic as this sounds then there would be no reason to Ally at that point.

The reasoning for doing so is because the only alternative is killing everyone else in the entire game. The death spiral from double betrays will force poeple to either trust another of their choice or to trust no one and strike out on your own. I mean if I were a player in this game what would I think is more likely? Finding a single person I can trust or being able to beat everyone else in mortal combat? I believe thats actually a decent question people would not all agree on. Which is the point of any decision games. It has to be a decision, it can't be easy. I could be wrong however, something like this hasn't been tried before and it might simply lead to only a bloodbath and no decision making. I think this type of system has more use in games where the game should typically decend into blood baths like BDE.
Nice To Meet You Friendo!
User avatar
TheNiceOne16
Jester
Jester
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Somewhere

Previous

Return to VLDR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests