Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

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Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Schultz128 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:41 pm

Sup, wanted to make a quick discussion thread about the flawed design regarding betrays in the AB Game, as well as the common use of vote manipulating abilities in recent games (mine included). A lot of this is a rough draft and not really organized or fully thought out since I literally just thought of making this within the past few hours, so let me know of any issues you have with what I'm saying here.

The primary issue with the design of the AB Game is the lack of either risk or incentive depending on the context of the game's design and current meta. The main incentives (remember these, they're important) for Betraying in the AB Game is to either:

  • Earn more BP to possibly escape faster.
  • Prevents you from losing points.

However, an issue comes in the context of games where the players do not punish betraying as seriously as they ought to due to the meta suspicion of a vote manipulator being in play. With simply the existence of a vote manipulator, someone can just easily say that their betray wasn't their actual vote that they inputted and no one will act on this immediately or within a proper way. This is an issue similar to a Forum Mafia issue known as a "Bastard Mechanic", or rather a mechanic that hid extremely important information from the players such as detection immune evil roles and similar mechanics. In this situation, there is too great of reward for much less of risk or deterrence.

However, without the prevalence of vote manipulation abilities (say, if the host were to declare the absence of such abilities for whatever reason), the incentives for betraying are completely outweighed by the the deterrents. To relate to our main incentives:

  • The prior incentive to earn more BP is essentially nullified as there's no way to take the blame off of you, the only one to blame is your partner, who will easily be working against you now. This isn't even speaking of 9 player games where one side of the AB Pairings is a single player, so there is absolutely no one to place the blame on. Even the idea of defending against an expected Betray is dependent on the other players around, and it's likely that a lot of those players will see this as an opportunity to exploit and manipulate all of the attention and hatred towards one/two players instead of themselves.
  • Voting pairs will be further manipulated now to prevent you from earning more points and to catch up the players betrayed against, or you will be killed to prevent any more hampering to the point gain of all the other players (i.e "Kill all Betrayers" mentality).

Because of this, there's little incentive to actually Betray and everyone in the game is nearly guaranteed to Ally, leading to a bit of a duller game.

Do you guys think these issues are something to look into fixing? Is it something that we can fix with the design of the AB Game, or is it unfixable because of player meta and playstyles? Perhaps we could think of alternatives to the AB Game or to gaining more BP outside of Betrayal? Or offer more incentives to Betraying?

I would love to hear discussion from everyone, new and experienced, so please do leave input.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Chemist1422 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:49 pm

an idea could be tweaking point values, making it so that betraying once actually gets you out faster than allying

instead of starting at 4 and allying being +3, betraying being +4 it could change the betray point gain to +5 so you could ally in the first round then betray in the second so you could leave

idk just a couple thoughts
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:07 pm

the problem of vote manipulation is the only way to play around it is by voting in the opposite way you want to vote. little counterplay and trying to counter it will most likely screw you up. it changed how awf went down for example and made nelly and i die for it. i dont think it should exist in any shape or form


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:47 pm

I'm going to write this in between league games queues, so thoughts are probably gonna be scattered.

Vote manipulators(at least in the current meta, if you wanna call it that, and most games) are necessary. Otherwise nothing really happens to cause conflicts except murder, but that's a staple in most games. No conflict causes games to become stale and kind of repetitive and pointless, and doesn't leave much room for character development. I'd like to point at Nelly's most recent game here as to why conflict is necessary. Nobody betrayed, and nobody died(although there was a very shitty attempt at murder). I think the game had potential to turn out much better than it did(not saying it was bad), but towards the end of the game everything felt pointless. There was no reason to be scared or whatever. It was just a "wow we're here" to "wow we're out." Everyone just allied. Nobody tried to kill.

It's like you said, that often times the benefits of betraying are not worth it. Take a look at, say, what happened to Munch in UaS or Arc's ongoing game(illegal but I'm not scouring games). Munch was immediately attacked in UaS and in the recent one he was ganged up on for betraying. Now, in UaS, he literally couldn't die conventionally, but he sure as hell would have been. The point is, people react violently to betrayal when the main point of it should be survival(in character) - why do I want to stay in here and prolong my chance of death, instead of saying "FUCK YOU" and getting out of here because I fear for my life? While you do that in character, you OOC know that you will be killed. And some players will create IC reasons to kill you for that reason.

The prior incentive to earn more BP is essentially nullified as there's no way to take the blame off of you, the only one to blame is your partner, who will easily be working against you now. This isn't even speaking of 9 player games where one side of the AB Pairings is a single player, so there is absolutely no one to place the blame on. Even the idea of defending against an expected Betray is dependent on the other players around, and it's likely that a lot of those players will see this as an opportunity to exploit and manipulate all of the attention and hatred towards one/two players instead of themselves.
Voting pairs will be further manipulated now to prevent you from earning more points and to catch up the players betrayed against, or you will be killed to prevent any more hampering to the point gain of all the other players (i.e "Kill all Betrayers" mentality).


Voting pairs are usually taken care of by the host with randomized groups that are selected from there(in Nelly's game there was the pick the group option, but why use it when there's no threat?). I think you're also missing out on a huge problem of betrays - to make use of it, you need to betray twice in a row. Sure, you can use betray defensively, but then you're sitting at 11 points and pissed off at LEAST one person. Explain yourself, do whatever, you're probably going to die. It's hard to explain when the person you suspect also didn't vote betray previously. Basically, there's no point to vote betray after the first round, where you're likely unable to defend yourself, and betrayal after that only draws immeasurable amounts of pissed off people towards you, who probably have arms at this point or are killers looking for a casus beli. Back to the main point, who is going to be STUPID enough to let you betray them after you've betrayed once? This then leads to the fact that most players have common sense, and to likely be able to get another betray off, you need to murder TWO opponents you're up against, while somehow keeping your name clean. Say you betray again - well now you can escape, but the other 11 people who don't have 12 are going to try their hardest to make sure you don't escape. This comes down partially to a player problem of not realizing how hard it is to kill a human for most people, but that's not the point of the discussion and we'll just talk in circles about proper roleplay. In short, the requirements to even make a betray work in face of all the risks are too damn high(hehe).

You can try to change betrayals to give other bonuses, but unless these go in the way of defending yourself versus, say, 3 people, how do you balance that, or explain it in story without complications? Maybe a +1 buff to each stats per person you are fighting past one? Then it's temporary, and they just wait. And then there's the problem of, even if you do have +3 STR, what are your odds of taking on three people? Really slim. You need some good damn rolls. Which is why buffing options for betrays is hard - hard to balance without it being meaningless, but if you make it too strong the game becomes a betray palooza. Allowing extra points to be found(like Nelly did in the create a role game) is a good solution to patch the betray twice problem, but then at some point you have people saying "wait why tf did he escape at 11?" It's certainly fair, but players just aren't happy unless they get their ending. Still, a 100% viable solution depending on how much BP is injected into the game.

I tried doing something like that in UaS with the greater chance to die the later you escape. Traitors escape earlier and have a lesser chance to die, and waiting for full ally makes it a cointoss whether you win after that or not. That still has the problem with betrayers getting attacked, but I think it's a good incentive to promote betrayers by jeopardizing the wins of those who just ally. I won't lie, vote manipulators are really fucking fun to watch the ensuing chaos and can be a good killer substitute, but it does get to the point where it's bastard and fucks people up for trying to play right.


TL DR Players ganging up on betrayers has always happened, but happened less frequently as games go on. Offering more incentives to betraying is risky as they can either be useless or too strong, hard to gauge from host perspective. The best ways are to inject artificial BP in the game, or jeopardize wins a la UaS to people who just infinite ally as to promote a more selfish playstyle.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby IAmAMunchlax » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:34 am

lmao i didn't read chubby's post ignore this
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Hawkwing425 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:58 am

Ok, sliding in to share my thoughts. Keep in mind, I have played very few games compared to others, so I am very inexperienced, but my thoughts are worth at least a penny.

One thing I've noticed is that a dual betray in the games I've seen has one of two outcomes, depending on the game: either no one gains points, or both sides lose one. While I like that the first option for giving more of an incentive to betray (you can't lose points by betraying!), the second one makes the dilemma a lot tougher, really making you think it through. It depends on one's role, the game plot/character writing, personal preferences, how many points one has, various game mechanics... et cetera.

When it comes to the part about being able to claim that you didn't have a choice, there's always room for doubt. VLDR, as I have found, is ripe for liars to make a move, and nothing can be trusted. Therefore, the ability to claim that a vote manipulator is in play is diminished somewhat. Someone who's playing a sufficiently paranoid, or even skeptical, character is likely to call that claim into question.

I've been wondering how the subtlety of a vote manipulator's presence would affect a game. If it's hidden, people will get salty when things aren't going as expected, when votes aren't acting like they should. If it's overt, everyone targets the vote manipulator and no one takes betrayals seriously until the manipulator is dead, and even then, there's always suspicion of a second one. If it's cleared up that there isn't a manipulator by the host, like Schultz said, betrayal becomes a lot less appealing, and conflict is lessened.

I really like Chemist's idea of upping how many points betrayal gets you. However, this would likely be best balanced by possibly making a dual betrayal take points away from both groups if betrayal proves too enticing. This whole thread is really about balancing allying and betraying. The part about betrayal making you a target is the big issue. Everyone wants to kill the people who aren't willing to go with the majority because they see a threat and decide that murder is the best option. I'm of the opinion that betrayal ought to be more enticing, but I'm worried that someone (read: me) might take all this advice and make it TOO enticing. Balance.

I really enjoyed Nelly's latest game (Altered Origins), but at the same time, I'm a very character-heavy player. I love making long-ass posts full of rich characterization and internal thoughts, but I notice that besides a few of us players, most people aren't going to read the whole damn post or give half a shit. It's a gameplay preference difference, and I don't blame people for not liking having to do a lot of reading- it slows gameplay and even for me, I have to check things over and over to make sure I'm addressing everything. But maybe that's my obsessive personality. I dunno. Either way, I felt like no one betraying or successfully killing (although there WERE murder attempts, mostly involving Verochka) was really fitting for Villik, a die-hard pacifist who was so obsessed with everything ending up OK. Not so much for Emilio, who just REALLY wanted people dead.

Murder? Really tough, emotionally. I have a family member who was a cop and ex-counter terrorist. He never killed anyone, but simply being trained to do so and expected to in the worst case scenarios gave him minor PTSD. I suggest that if you want to play the emotional consequences of murder seriously, either make your character used to it (and portray all the issues that come with that can of worms) or study PTSD. Adrenaline's a hell of a drug, but when its high wears off, you're not exactly going to be able to delude yourself that you didn't kill someone very easily. It's especially rough if your character is some kind of pacifistic "I want everyone to escape alive and get home safely!" type, or a "regular person" type, because they probably haven't seen a dead body before, much less someone they've killed with their own hands.

Now, there is something I was wondering about vote manipulation. I mentioned in the Discord that I whipped up some hypothetical VLDR roles. I would like to run a game some day (though I lack the time), but I know nothing about balancing and whatnot, and vote manipulators are controversial. One of the roles in particular has an ability where, if they roll high enough with a certain stat (possibly against the other person's roll of some kind), they can turn that person into a permanent "recruit" type. This makes that person who was recruited unable to vote to betray the person with that role. I don't have any other vote manipulators right now, but I was hoping I could get some feedback on the balance of that ability on its own, not counting stats, the other ability, or wincon.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby LordofFail » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:38 am

I’m trying something different in my next game, replacing the ab game entirely with something else. Hopefully it goes well.

The replacement still allows players to escape if they can trust others and be trusted in return, but also has harsher punishment for being betrayed (usually instant death) as well as betrayal being anonymous.

I’m excited to see how it plays out - it probably won’t be super balanced but if it works it’s something we can look into using for future games.

I do think the ab game in its current state needs a shakeup- I’ll write a more detailed post (or edit this one) in a few hours when I’m home from work
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby IAmAMunchlax » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:17 am

I mean there's also always door/decision games, so it's not like we're necessarily in need of a different game mode. We just need to make ab game more balanced. Arc's got the right idea right now, giving points for tasks. (iunno if other games did that i haven't really been paying attention)

Your idea does sound nice too though, excited to see it in progress.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby LordofFail » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:53 am

So, my thoughts on ambidex game (bear with me, I know they are messy and all over the place, I'm writing this quickly before I eat lunch):

As it stands, we gain little by betraying. All it does it paint a huge target on their back that killing roles take full advantage of to get a free kill. It's basically free real estate. "They betrayed so they are better off dead".

So the problem comes from two parts:

1. Not enough incentive to betray
2. It's not anonymous

I definitely think that voting to betray should give you more points, maybe instead of +3 or +4 have it give +5. The problem with this is that then the game can end a lot faster if one player betrays in the second round and makes a quick dash for the exit.

Anonymous voting is another method that can be used. I tried it in IIB, and there was a LOT of betray votes in that game (19 betray votes, 22 ally votes - not counting people who didn't vote). Not knowing your opponents really makes it a lot easier to betray and harder to trust because you have no idea who you are against. It removes any individual penalty you may face for betraying as you don't have the target on your back. Of course, this means that the pairings AND results need to be hidden, as well as point values. The way I balanced this was by allowing anyone with 9 points to leave and not ending the game immediately after the first person escapes.

I also allowed players to show each other their point totals and players could swap point totals by swapping bracelets (or stealing them from other people). I feel that this balance worked quite well, and I might return to a similar format in a future game.

Having a role require certain number of betrays to win or forcing people to betray seems a tad gimmicky and probably isn't super fun to play.

Also vote swappers isn't great, it's basically a way to betray and get a free pass by using the vote swap meta.

TL;DR:

1. I don't like vote swappers and roles that are forced to betray or only win if X people betray.
2. I think the biggest problem with betraying is that anyone who betrays just gets targeted by everyone, especially killing roles. And if it's part of a pair, a killing role can use it as an excuse to kill two people.
3. There isn't enough reward for betraying, getting one extra point just isn't worth it. And you don't really need to betray to protect yourself from losing points since the "I'm a victim" card works well in VLDR for making alliances. People target those who are closest to escaping, not those with the fewest points, even if those with the fewest points don't need to escape to win.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:17 pm

The thing about the ally meta is that its mathematically the correct method. Although some people may say "oh I'm scared for my life", that fear kind of falls apart when theres a group of 8 people who are more than willing to pound your face in for betraying the group. Why would you risk your own life while everyone could escape in a timely manner? It simply doesn't make sense from a self interest perspective.

Awarding more points could work in a example like JJBA where the exit is near the voting area. In that game there were two people that left early with the group not being able to stop them. However, in most other scenarios, you're just going to be murdered outside the voting booth. Even in JJBA, that happened only because a player intervened in Parks's favor and Parks could teleport in. The other guy lives thanks to the nature of his stand. In other games without powerful abilities with similar traits, they probably would have been stopped.

Increasing the being betrayed penalty works, but instant death is just going to cause people to always betray. At that point the mechanic may as well not exist.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:20 pm

I actually really dislike lof's anonymous ab games, I think if you don't know your opponent then there is not even a point in having it be called a trust game in the first place.


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:23 pm

PolyesterHomes wrote:The thing about the ally meta is that its mathematically the correct method. Although some people may say "oh I'm scared for my life", that fear kind of falls apart when theres a group of 8 people who are more than willing to pound your face in for betraying the group. Why would you risk your own life while everyone could escape in a timely manner? It simply doesn't make sense from a self interest perspective.


Idk this seems like a 'player mentality placed over any possible character mentality' problem rather than 'whats best', if theres a 'meta' for whats 'correct' youre missing something about what vldr is


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:28 pm

I also want you to ask yourself if you seriously believe in real life a group would unanimously agree that if you vote 'betray' you DESERVE to be beaten into death. ZE didn't do that, not even movies would do that, its literally just some vldr games and that alone reveals where part of the problem is, prioritizing winning above any sort of cohesive story. There's more i could say about that but i dont wanna derail the thread


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:50 pm

Arcthurus wrote:I also want you to ask yourself if you seriously believe in real life a group would unanimously agree that if you vote 'betray' you DESERVE to be beaten into death. ZE didn't do that, not even movies would do that, its literally just some vldr games and that alone reveals where part of the problem is, prioritizing winning above any sort of cohesive story. There's more i could say about that but i dont wanna derail the thread

People are always going to find some IC reason to say this, so it won't ever be stopped. Player mentality would be a simple fix, but that's basically forcing people to play a certain way and it's nigh impossible to change every opinion.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:08 pm

fortunately vldr has flexibility as a selling point, im all for trying out new things and later realizing they were either too strong or too weak because we can learn from that

i think possible alternatives to win the game that dont necessarily involve killing or escaping could lead people to feel less prone to punishing those who betray because its less of an end of the world thing, theres also always personal wincons that could somehow be factored into it, or wincons for a whole group but not the entire playerlist, and so on


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:46 pm

Arcthurus wrote:fortunately vldr has flexibility as a selling point, im all for trying out new things and later realizing they were either too strong or too weak because we can learn from that

i think possible alternatives to win the game that dont necessarily involve killing or escaping could lead people to feel less prone to punishing those who betray because its less of an end of the world thing, theres also always personal wincons that could somehow be factored into it, or wincons for a whole group but not the entire playerlist, and so on

I mean, alt escape routes? Not sure exactly what you mean here.

I still like my suggestion of decreasing escape chance as the game goes on. It doesn't work out for you? Shame, shoulda betrayed.

Same issues as usual though, with killers n shit, but at least it gives real motive. Maybe combined with a small buff it could work.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:56 pm

Arcthurus wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:The thing about the ally meta is that its mathematically the correct method. Although some people may say "oh I'm scared for my life", that fear kind of falls apart when theres a group of 8 people who are more than willing to pound your face in for betraying the group. Why would you risk your own life while everyone could escape in a timely manner? It simply doesn't make sense from a self interest perspective.


Idk this seems like a 'player mentality placed over any possible character mentality' problem rather than 'whats best', if theres a 'meta' for whats 'correct' youre missing something about what vldr is


That's a good point. I am thinking about how I would go about doing things when put in such a situation rather than what most characters would do. I myself wouldn't suggest that people that betray be killed, but I would point out that we could all get out fairly reasonably. There's a lot of characters that wouldn't follow through on this reasoning, and a few that would also get really angry if somebody tried telling them what to do by force. I will contend however that if such a group formed, most people would rather go along with the groups decision of killing traitors, as doing so already benefits them. I would fall into this camp, maybe even make a (empty) threat about joining them in the murdering just to make the force seem more powerful. Plus, objecting to the group would lead to suspicions from other people and may even make them a target.

At the very least the person who got betrayed would take it as a attempt on their life. I certainly would.

Arcthurus wrote:I also want you to ask yourself if you seriously believe in real life a group would unanimously agree that if you vote 'betray' you DESERVE to be beaten into death. ZE didn't do that, not even movies would do that, its literally just some vldr games and that alone reveals where part of the problem is, prioritizing winning above any sort of cohesive story. There's more i could say about that but i dont wanna derail the thread


Well, I suppose it doesn't have to be unanimous. There just need to be more violent people willing to enforce the rule than break it. When people lives get on the lines like a killing game, group mentality tends to take over. If there's a group of people that merely claims that they'll kill any traitors, thats a large incentive as a character to go with the group and not betray anyone. I also have a very positive outlook on humans and general and think that such a situation would be diffused without strong incnetives for betrayal. Getting out sooner isn't a very good motivator for a person unless a very clear and present threat exists. Once people started dying, that's when you would expect people to start betraying each other.

The strategy in real life hinges on if somebody dies or not. If everyone follows through, everyone gets out. If one person betrays and manages to make a good case for themselves that's going to be very divisive for the group and may even be the reason the group erupts into violence. Even if that person is killed without public objection people are going to get scared and lose their resolve for the plan, causing betrayals. Then, the whole strategy falls apart.

(Yes i'm using strategy to discuss this plan in a real life setting. You could also argue that it didn't happen in ZE because if that scenario occurred the plot wouldn't have happened.)
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:58 pm

The main difference between ZE and VLDR is in VLDR people are usually treating betrays as an affront against the whole group, in ZE it was against the two (or one) that were betrayed and people stayed on their lane. Voting became a you vs the group instead of what it should be, one/two vs. one/two people.


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:00 pm

Arcthurus wrote:The main difference between ZE and VLDR is in VLDR people are usually treating betrays as an affront against the whole group, in ZE it was against the two (or one) that were betrayed and people stayed on their lane. Voting became a you vs the group instead of what it should be, one/two vs. one/two people.

People seem to treat it as a "what if I'm next?" sort of thing, maybe thrown in with a bit of empathy.

Not personally, just throwing it out there
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:00 pm

Thought experiment.

What would you do if in round one, there were TWO pairs who voted Betray, BUT they were faced against each other. So, Ally v Ally, Ally v Ally, Betray v Betray was the result. Are you gonna kill the 2 to 4 who are responsible for the betrays?


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:15 pm

Arcthurus wrote:Thought experiment.

What would you do if in round one, there were TWO pairs who voted Betray, BUT they were faced against each other. So, Ally v Ally, Ally v Ally, Betray v Betray was the result. Are you gonna kill the 2 to 4 who are responsible for the betrays?


Me personally? No, I'm weak and I know I am. I probably couldn't even hit the broadside of a barn if I had a ranged weapon. I'd probably defer to the group decision, which would probably be to let the two groups go at it. If one of the groups objected to the plan, then the double betrayal makes sense. If both groups said nothing, then it is sort of out of the blue.

I'd probably ask some questions. If the group starts moving to kill them, i'd probably stay back a few steps and let the situation resolve itself, only intervening if I think I can push things a bit.

If I was pit against those people i'd probably vote betray, so I assume others would too. That would ruin the plan without a massacre immediatally.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:53 pm

IRL? I don't know tbh, I wouldn't care until I was betrayed.

I try to emulate that in my characters, unless its not their thing.
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby Arcthurus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:11 pm

i meant in vldr not irl lol but you can say what youd do irl if you want


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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:13 pm

i also said what i'd do in vldr spo it works
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Re: Betraying, Vote Manipulation, and Flawed Design

Postby PolyesterHomes » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:20 pm

Arcthurus wrote:i meant in vldr not irl lol but you can say what youd do irl if you want


I'd just ignore it and let them murder eachother. If my character was evil i'd finish off the winner.
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