Survivor Rework

Old Role Ideas

Better than the current Survivor?

Yes, replace the current Survivor with this.
3
75%
No, it's not better than the current Survivor.
1
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Total votes : 4

Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Zee235 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:47 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
Zee235 wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
Zee235 wrote:http://town-of-salem.wikia.com/wiki/Neutral_Benign

Read the first paragraph. Now I know the wiki is not the best source of info in the world but it is the best I can come up with. From what it sounds like Neutral Benign roles are supposed to (although not required) be kingmakers. If this is what BMG had in mind for making roles like survivor then thats basically the end of it. If it was made to be a kingmaker for some games then let it be. This is what I think as far as survivor goes.

- It's actually the complete opposite, we are trying to remove all kingmakers from the game.
- If there is in fact a rule like that in the Wiki, that needs to be changed.
- Also the best source of information on how to make roles is in RI stickied topics.

1. That would be really hard. Anything can be a kingmaker at any point. For example in a Chaos mode it serial killer could be a kingmaker. Not to mention most of that post was just to mention that if BMG, the owners of the game, Want survivors to be king makers then it would most likely not happen. Although kingmakers can be unbalanced a lot of the community like kingmakers. take it from him

Soulshade55r wrote:I find Survivor fun :(!
Anyway I love screwing over Nks shouting about how they don't win a lot It's funny.



2. please explain

3. I would say the best info would come from BMG itself. I know the wiki is not BMG themselves but that was the best I could find. If BMG did have problems with kingmakers then they would probably do something about it.

The Developers are busy working on Unity.. they haven't had time to focus on other changes.


I am aware of the unity thing. That is why I chose the wiki.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:26 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:EXCEPT, town usually lynches the survivor OR a dumbass mafia/NK kills the survivor THUS, it can't be a kingmaker a lot of the time. PLUS, the survivor being a kingmaker isn't actually a bad thing, it is a pretty balanced thing all things considered since people usually pity the NK but not always so it's not skewed towards anyone and helps reduce the town's ridiculous win rate. If anything, there needs to be an incentive to not hang the survivor otherwise any changes are pointless.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby oOYuuArtSuiOo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:56 pm

fwogcarf wrote:If Survivor does need a rework, then this is a good solution.

Except I feel Survivor is fine as it is and honestly doesn't need a rework. What are the problems with survivor?



Surv is hard to win.

Either Surv dies not claiming early on or dies by hanging since late claim.

EDIT: I agree on this rework
MY OTHER IDEAS!

The Taboo Caster (Coven Evil)
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Role Alignment Idea: The Equilibrium
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The Witness (Neutral Evil)

Shilster wrote:Isn't this just a better Janitor? It can totally disable people, and yeah, it nerfs lynching. People who can't vote (especially Town members) are useless to their team.

YuuArtSui explained it pretty well.

Aww, thanks :3

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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:03 pm

I had an idea almost exactly like yours, but I let go of it. Here is why:

Kikigiri wrote:I have another objection. I've kind of been ignoring this thread because I hoped it would die, but since people keep posting to it...

If this change were implemented, why would any Survivor not claim D1? Consider how heavily Town-favored this version of the Survivor is.

1. The Mafia will never attack anyone they think is a Survivor (because attacking them means risking hitting a fellow Mafia member.) The possibility of piercing Doctors (or just crossing your fingers and hoping he didn't pick a target) isn't remotely worth the risk of killing one of your own Mafia. It'd be like targeting a revealed Transporter - only idiots do that. You also lose the information on whether your target was immune, which is absolutely essential for the Mafia to beat NKs. Any Mafioso or GF who deliberately targeted a Survivor with this change would be a moron.

(Remember, a smart Survivor will always try to transport himself with people he thinks are Mafia, since they're less likely to be attacked; or with people who he thinks nobody is likely to bother attacking. This makes attacking the Survivor directly a waste at best - you're getting your attack redirected onto your least-likely target - and in many cases absolutely suicidal for the Mafia.)

2. Under your change, Survivors will usually vote with the Town. Why? Because the Mafia is a much more serious threat to them - as the number of Town members dwindles, the chance that the Survivor will get killed by the Mafia increases. They benefit from eliminating the Mafia quickly and avoiding ever reaching the late game (where they can't vote anyway.) In the worst case scenario, a Survivor could reach a situation with three people left... where they already transported themselves with the killer last night. That's a guaranteed lose for the Survivor. They can't vote to end the game, they can't avoid swapping themselves with the Town member, and the Mafioso is going to aim a kill at the Town member to end the game - they're not gonna care that this kills the Survivor. Revealing and openly siding with the Town before the game reaches that point is far far safer, especially since you still have the fallback of winning with the Mafia sometimes. If I was a Survivor and I had the chance to end the game with a Town win when there are four people left, I would desperately grab it and cling to it as fast as I could, since no matter how friendly the Mafia is to me, they can't guarantee my survival when there are three people left.

(Why doesn't the Mafioso target the Survivor on a night with three people? Because they don't know who the Survivor swapped with; they could kill themselves if they do that and the Survivor swapped with the Mafioso. Trying to target the Survivor or otherwise cut deals with them to help them to survive would, guess what, turn the Survivor into a kingmaker - a Survivor could lie and end up making the Mafioso kill themselves.)

3. But that means that this role is effectively an additional Town Protective. Any Town member the Survivor swaps with is completely safe - the Mafia won't attack a revealed Survivor (because they don't know the Survivor is swapping with Town, and have no reason to take that risk), and if they attack the Survivor's target, the Survivor dies instead. This is win/win from the Town's perspective, meaning that the Town will never want to hang potential Survivors. Yes, the Survivor can't vote with you when there are three people left, but they have huge incentives to vote with you before that point, because situations where the Mafia starts slowly picking off the Town at night are very very dangerous to a Survivor who is forced to swap with a different person each night.

4. The Mafia will want to hang you (because this version of the Survivor is heavily Town-favored, basically serving as a BG who doesn't kill), but they can't deliberately kill you at night, since targeting you, again, risks killing one of themselves, and they won't know who you're targeting. Note that this also means that the Mafia can't even offer to side with the Survivor - they have no way to guarantee the Survivor's safety. Again, this version of Survivor is entirely Town-favored; they can technically win with the Mafia, but mechanically, they benefit the Town and are much more likely to win if they side with the Town.

Other problems... you're complicating the game for a benefit that (as I mention above) I'm just not seeing. Transporters already add a huge amount of complexity; what's the point of turning Survivors into this nerfed version of a Transporter?

You didn't say if the targets get messages. I assume no (giving them messages would both make Survivors functionally unlynchable, and would make it impossible for anyone else to claim survivor, which is a vital part of the Survivor's role in the meta.)

You didn't say what happens if the Survivor doesn't pick a target and the Jailor is dead. You weren't going to say that it gets picked at random, were you? Because it soooounds like you're suggesting something random!

You're removing one of the few ways to explain immunity without being evil. That is the exact opposite of what the game needs. Evils already tend to die instantly when their immunity is exposed; we need ways to improve the usefulness of survivor as a claim in that situation, rather than removing that aspect of it entirely. To me, after all, that role is one of the primary reasons Survivors exist.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby KingArmaan » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:21 am

Why does he join dead chat if he is not dead. After escaping he is unable to chat to anyone,
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My least favourite roles: Retributionist, Medium, Arsonist, Werewolf, Blackmailer, Framer and Forger.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:03 am

Kirize12 wrote:I had an idea almost exactly like yours, but I let go of it. Here is why:

Kikigiri wrote:I have another objection. I've kind of been ignoring this thread because I hoped it would die, but since people keep posting to it...

If this change were implemented, why would any Survivor not claim D1? Consider how heavily Town-favored this version of the Survivor is.

1. The Mafia will never attack anyone they think is a Survivor (because attacking them means risking hitting a fellow Mafia member.) The possibility of piercing Doctors (or just crossing your fingers and hoping he didn't pick a target) isn't remotely worth the risk of killing one of your own Mafia. It'd be like targeting a revealed Transporter - only idiots do that. You also lose the information on whether your target was immune, which is absolutely essential for the Mafia to beat NKs. Any Mafioso or GF who deliberately targeted a Survivor with this change would be a moron.

(Remember, a smart Survivor will always try to transport himself with people he thinks are Mafia, since they're less likely to be attacked; or with people who he thinks nobody is likely to bother attacking. This makes attacking the Survivor directly a waste at best - you're getting your attack redirected onto your least-likely target - and in many cases absolutely suicidal for the Mafia.)

2. Under your change, Survivors will usually vote with the Town. Why? Because the Mafia is a much more serious threat to them - as the number of Town members dwindles, the chance that the Survivor will get killed by the Mafia increases. They benefit from eliminating the Mafia quickly and avoiding ever reaching the late game (where they can't vote anyway.) In the worst case scenario, a Survivor could reach a situation with three people left... where they already transported themselves with the killer last night. That's a guaranteed lose for the Survivor. They can't vote to end the game, they can't avoid swapping themselves with the Town member, and the Mafioso is going to aim a kill at the Town member to end the game - they're not gonna care that this kills the Survivor. Revealing and openly siding with the Town before the game reaches that point is far far safer, especially since you still have the fallback of winning with the Mafia sometimes. If I was a Survivor and I had the chance to end the game with a Town win when there are four people left, I would desperately grab it and cling to it as fast as I could, since no matter how friendly the Mafia is to me, they can't guarantee my survival when there are three people left.

(Why doesn't the Mafioso target the Survivor on a night with three people? Because they don't know who the Survivor swapped with; they could kill themselves if they do that and the Survivor swapped with the Mafioso. Trying to target the Survivor or otherwise cut deals with them to help them to survive would, guess what, turn the Survivor into a kingmaker - a Survivor could lie and end up making the Mafioso kill themselves.)

3. But that means that this role is effectively an additional Town Protective. Any Town member the Survivor swaps with is completely safe - the Mafia won't attack a revealed Survivor (because they don't know the Survivor is swapping with Town, and have no reason to take that risk), and if they attack the Survivor's target, the Survivor dies instead. This is win/win from the Town's perspective, meaning that the Town will never want to hang potential Survivors. Yes, the Survivor can't vote with you when there are three people left, but they have huge incentives to vote with you before that point, because situations where the Mafia starts slowly picking off the Town at night are very very dangerous to a Survivor who is forced to swap with a different person each night.

4. The Mafia will want to hang you (because this version of the Survivor is heavily Town-favored, basically serving as a BG who doesn't kill), but they can't deliberately kill you at night, since targeting you, again, risks killing one of themselves, and they won't know who you're targeting. Note that this also means that the Mafia can't even offer to side with the Survivor - they have no way to guarantee the Survivor's safety. Again, this version of Survivor is entirely Town-favored; they can technically win with the Mafia, but mechanically, they benefit the Town and are much more likely to win if they side with the Town.

Other problems... you're complicating the game for a benefit that (as I mention above) I'm just not seeing. Transporters already add a huge amount of complexity; what's the point of turning Survivors into this nerfed version of a Transporter?

You didn't say if the targets get messages. I assume no (giving them messages would both make Survivors functionally unlynchable, and would make it impossible for anyone else to claim survivor, which is a vital part of the Survivor's role in the meta.)

You didn't say what happens if the Survivor doesn't pick a target and the Jailor is dead. You weren't going to say that it gets picked at random, were you? Because it soooounds like you're suggesting something random!

You're removing one of the few ways to explain immunity without being evil. That is the exact opposite of what the game needs. Evils already tend to die instantly when their immunity is exposed; we need ways to improve the usefulness of survivor as a claim in that situation, rather than removing that aspect of it entirely. To me, after all, that role is one of the primary reasons Survivors exist.

Currently Surv claims D1 too.. well if I made it so if you hide behind non Town your ability would fail? or something similar. Also Transporter is one of the LEAST complicated roles in the game.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby SillyPantsJackson » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:29 pm

Mafia should never attack anyone they think is survivor early on in the game anyway.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:58 am

Updated OP
- All actions are redirected instead of only harmful actions.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby SillyPantsJackson » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:17 am

That is probably for the best.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Mystoc » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:59 am

its a one way transpoter?
and this means surv is confrimable now which is very bad say im surv have vig shoot you target someone you say who you will target vola confirmed

isnt the survivor unkillable some nights now?


why take away survs decision that was the fun thing about end game whoever was the better convincer got the surviver to side with them. being able to convince a surv to side with i un the final 3 was the funniest part of the game, making the choice automated seems silly to me it seems the game is the kingmaker now

this means surv becomes very evils sided since evils know in final 3 they auto win theres no indecision the surv might double cross theor side with town town is dead last so can never win the final 1v1v1? surv will know this and just side with evils even more now since it as less proection then before and doesnt want piss evils off
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby SillyPantsJackson » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:13 pm

Mystoc wrote:why take away survs decision that was the fun thing about end game whoever was the better convincer got the surviver to side with them. being able to convince a surv to side with i un the final 3 was the funniest part of the game, making the choice automated seems silly to me it seems the game is the kingmaker now


I definitely agree with this. If the survivor is in the Final 3 they have earned the right to decide who wins the game. That should be a fixed point of the role. Taking that away would strip something extremely vital to playing a match with a survivor in it.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby EpicEmperor » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:52 pm

BasicFourLife wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:If Survivor does need a rework, then this is a good solution.

Except I feel Survivor is fine as it is and honestly doesn't need a rework. What are the problems with survivor?

- Kingmaker
- Hard to achieve goal

Explain what you mean by "Kingmaker".

I do understand why it's hard to achieve goal, but that's what four bulletproof vests are for.

Kingmaker is a player who can decide the winner biased on whoever they want, skill doesn't matter in this situation. The win / loss for the other players is uncontrollable and there's nothing they can do about it, ex: SK v GF v Surv, Surv chooses the winner...That creates swing and swing is bad for the game.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:34 am

SillyPantsJackson wrote:
Mystoc wrote:why take away survs decision that was the fun thing about end game whoever was the better convincer got the surviver to side with them. being able to convince a surv to side with i un the final 3 was the funniest part of the game, making the choice automated seems silly to me it seems the game is the kingmaker now


I definitely agree with this. If the survivor is in the Final 3 they have earned the right to decide who wins the game. That should be a fixed point of the role. Taking that away would strip something extremely vital to playing a match with a survivor in it.

The survivor is still a vital point to playing any game. It's a plus one vote and an additional scumreader/PR hunter who virtually can't be killed at night. Allying with the role is important, and should the Survivor so choose, it could be an additional vote to your faction - so in a 9/3/3 setup, it could become 10/3/2 with a survivor, which would give town a significant advantage. Hell, once you think about it, survivor is a little more town-sided by default since town controls the gallows and mafia controls the night - but survivor doesn't die at night. (unless they don't vest or if mafia has a consort, both rare)

All this does is prevent picking a winner. A survivor wins no matter what, their vote shouldn't be counted as they no longer have stake in the game.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Mystoc » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:56 am

The survivor is still a vital point to playing any game. It's a plus one vote and an additional scumreader/PR hunter who virtually can't be killed at night. Allying with the role is important, and should the Survivor so choose, it could be an additional vote to your faction - so in a 9/3/3 setup, it could become 10/3/2 with a survivor, which would give town a significant advantage. Hell, once you think about it, survivor is a little more town-sided by default since town controls the gallows and mafia controls the night - but survivor doesn't die at night. (unless they don't vest or if mafia has a consort, both rare)

All this does is prevent picking a winner. A survivor wins no matter what, their vote shouldn't be counted as they no longer have stake in the game.


a survivor isnt gonna be able to vote alot or be vocal now that you took away alot of its defesne it would to last to night 8 to have the quivlant of defense it would of had before and also not vest for 4 nights

thats funniest part of end game the deception / pitch the surv why they should side with you, you just essitianly made a NB role automaticcly evil sided and even more likey to side with mafia, taking a away a person choice dumb downs the game i dont like it
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:32 am

I removed its last attribute.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:00 am

Basic, please add it back.

I think you miss the point. Any kingmaker automatically dumbs down the game. All kingmakers, by definition, have no stake in the game. They are someone who has already lost or won, and nothing can change that. Thus, given since a kingmaker isn’t actually part of the game, any decisions it makes aren’t influenced even remotely by in-game decisions based on how to benefit it - it cannot be benefitted, it has already won. From this we can conclude that a kingmaker win is never remotely deserved - they are always, without exception, pure luck. It doesn’t make for good gameplay if a role that’s inherently town-sided (given town can lynch you on any given day but you can’t be killed at night) so if it can’t find all the scum roles it deserves to have its right of choice stripped. Not that it matters to the survivor - from a gameplay perspective, it has already won, and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop it. It’s the exact same thing with non-killing Town (or ret), witch, jester, executioner...

Of course, hopefully my Kingmaker Scenario Detector will be added and this won’t matter, because it’ll be grandfathered into that anyways. Still, the less kingmakers, the better.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:14 am

Kirize12 wrote:Basic, please add it back.

I think you miss the point. Any kingmaker automatically dumbs down the game. All kingmakers, by definition, have no stake in the game. They are someone who has already lost or won, and nothing can change that. Thus, given since a kingmaker isn’t actually part of the game, any decisions it makes aren’t influenced even remotely by in-game decisions based on how to benefit it - it cannot be benefitted, it has already won. From this we can conclude that a kingmaker win is never remotely deserved - they are always, without exception, pure luck. It doesn’t make for good gameplay if a role that’s inherently town-sided (given town can lynch you on any given day but you can’t be killed at night) so if it can’t find all the scum roles it deserves to have its right of choice stripped. Not that it matters to the survivor - from a gameplay perspective, it has already won, and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop it. It’s the exact same thing with non-killing Town (or ret), witch, jester, executioner...

Of course, hopefully my Kingmaker Scenario Detector will be added and this won’t matter, because it’ll be grandfathered into that anyways. Still, the less kingmakers, the better.

Alright
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby SillyPantsJackson » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Kirize12 wrote:It's a plus one vote and an additional scumreader/PR hunter who virtually can't be killed at night.


This is in no way accurate.

The survivor can die at any time, they get 4 nights of immunity, but that does not matter. They are essentially just as vulnerable as anyone who isn't immune, perhaps more so because anyone who attacks them and finds out they are immune will reveal that information. Leading town to not trust them. Add in the fact that survivor claims are usually killed because of how disposable they are and stripping the survivor of the one time in which they hold all of the power is simply unfair. 4 nights of immunity for the survivor and they can be killed by the jailor and WW/Arso whether they vest or not. They are not "virtually unkillable at night".
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:41 pm

Arsonist takes a while to kill a Survivor. Werewolf yes, but you’d be wasting time and you can’t justify it with one role.

A survivor is immune more than half the game, and you think it’s just as killable as any non-immune role?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby SillyPantsJackson » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:35 pm

You can't say "Survivor is immune more than half the game", each game length varies. You have to be accurate with your statements if you expect to use them as evidence.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:14 am

SillyPantsJackson wrote:You can't say "Survivor is immune more than half the game", each game length varies. You have to be accurate with your statements if you expect to use them as evidence.

Games last an average of 5-8 nights. Any other game is an outlier and shouldn't be used as data. This is 6th grade math btw, and that's not intended as criticism.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby SillyPantsJackson » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:13 am

That is a completely incorrect statement. You want to talk about math? Fine. In order to get an average you have to use each piece of data in the data set, this way you have some numbers that are above the average and some that are below. This is what makes it the average.

You, however, claim that any game outside the average should not be counted as data. If that were the case, that the average would, in fact, not be the average at all because you eliminated the relevant data that actually denotes it as that.

As such, the average is not a strict answer, it cannot be used as the whole point in and of itself. It can be a piece of evidence, but it cannot stand on its own because, in this case, for each game that we would apply the average to, it would be a complete guess with almost a 50-50 chance of accuracy.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:47 am

Yes. And outliers aren't considered in the average, as they 1) happen so rarely they should be regarded as non-existent and 2) throw off everything.

Like, let's say you have 1, 28, 30, 31, 32, 34, 98. Those are outliers.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby SillyPantsJackson » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:42 am

Again, just because you say something is one thing doesn't mean it is that thing.

You can't just make up your own facts out of thin air and sit there and pretend like you have actual evidence when all you have is your own statements.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:08 am

Holy shit, stop

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