Survivor Rework

Old Role Ideas

Better than the current Survivor?

Yes, replace the current Survivor with this.
3
75%
No, it's not better than the current Survivor.
1
25%
 
Total votes : 4

Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed May 16, 2018 7:09 am

Credits to Google for the hiding mechanic.

Name: Survivor
Alignment: Neutral Benign


Abilities
- Choose one person to hide behind each night.
- Start with one charge and gain one more each night you do not use your ability.
- You lose one charge each time you use your ability.


Attributes
- If someone attempts to attack or douse you while you are hiding behind someone, they will instead target the person you hid behind.
- If there are three players remaining in the game, the win will be given to one of these factions in this predetermined order: Neutral Killing > Neutral Chaos > Neutral Evil > Mafia > Coven > Town.


Special Attributes
- Attack: None
- Defense: None


Additional Information
- You will be informed each night on how many charges you have left.

Night Messages
"You have two charges remaining."
"You have decided to hide behind Google."
"Someone tried to attack you, so they visited the target you hid behind instead."
"You did not use your night ability, you have gained an additional charge."


Goal: Live to the end of the game.
Win Condition: You win with everyone. You must kill no one.
Last edited by BasicFourLife on Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:01 am, edited 15 times in total.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby fwogcarf » Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am

If Survivor does need a rework, then this is a good solution.

Except I feel Survivor is fine as it is and honestly doesn't need a rework. What are the problems with survivor?
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed May 16, 2018 7:53 am

fwogcarf wrote:If Survivor does need a rework, then this is a good solution.

Except I feel Survivor is fine as it is and honestly doesn't need a rework. What are the problems with survivor?

- Kingmaker
- Hard to achieve goal
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby fwogcarf » Wed May 16, 2018 10:55 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:If Survivor does need a rework, then this is a good solution.

Except I feel Survivor is fine as it is and honestly doesn't need a rework. What are the problems with survivor?

- Kingmaker
- Hard to achieve goal

Explain what you mean by "Kingmaker".

I do understand why it's hard to achieve goal, but that's what four bulletproof vests are for.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed May 16, 2018 10:59 am

fwogcarf wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:If Survivor does need a rework, then this is a good solution.

Except I feel Survivor is fine as it is and honestly doesn't need a rework. What are the problems with survivor?

- Kingmaker
- Hard to achieve goal

Explain what you mean by "Kingmaker".

I do understand why it's hard to achieve goal, but that's what four bulletproof vests are for.

Kingmaker is a player who can decide the winner biased on whoever they want, skill doesn't matter in this situation. The win / loss for the other players is uncontrollable and there's nothing they can do about it, ex: SK v GF v Surv, Surv chooses the winner...That creates swing and swing is bad for the game.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby fwogcarf » Wed May 16, 2018 11:09 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:
fwogcarf wrote:If Survivor does need a rework, then this is a good solution.

Except I feel Survivor is fine as it is and honestly doesn't need a rework. What are the problems with survivor?

- Kingmaker
- Hard to achieve goal

Explain what you mean by "Kingmaker".

I do understand why it's hard to achieve goal, but that's what four bulletproof vests are for.

Kingmaker is a player who can decide the winner biased on whoever they want, skill doesn't matter in this situation. The win / loss for the other players is uncontrollable and there's nothing they can do about it, ex: SK v GF v Surv, Surv chooses the winner...That creates swing and swing is bad for the game.

Ok

Yeah I'm still sticking to my current point that Survivor does not need to be reworked as of now.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu May 17, 2018 12:59 am

EXCEPT, town usually lynches the survivor OR a dumbass mafia/NK kills the survivor THUS, it can't be a kingmaker a lot of the time. PLUS, the survivor being a kingmaker isn't actually a bad thing, it is a pretty balanced thing all things considered since people usually pity the NK but not always so it's not skewed towards anyone and helps reduce the town's ridiculous win rate. If anything, there needs to be an incentive to not hang the survivor otherwise any changes are pointless. I suggest giving them the jester revenge mechanic which targets abstainers and guilties while the jester's targets anyone who votes innocent on them. Plus, the jester wouldn't say he will have his revenge on this rework but something else like "The Jester's death triggers dark magic!" or something.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby lemonader666 » Thu May 17, 2018 5:12 am

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=36848
/thread, again.

Boredfan1 wrote:EXCEPT, town usually lynches the survivor OR a dumbass mafia/NK kills the survivor THUS, it can't be a kingmaker a lot of the time. PLUS, the survivor being a kingmaker isn't actually a bad thing, it is a pretty balanced thing all things considered since people usually pity the NK but not always so it's not skewed towards anyone and helps reduce the town's ridiculous win rate. If anything, there needs to be an incentive to not hang the survivor otherwise any changes are pointless. I suggest giving them the jester revenge mechanic which targets abstainers and guilties while the jester's targets anyone who votes innocent on them. Plus, the jester wouldn't say he will have his revenge on this rework but something else like "The Jester's death triggers dark magic!" or something.

lemonader666 wrote:>-Kingmaker isn't bad, it's balanced.
so you're saying that a kingmaker, who can decide to either give a NK or a town member the win is balanced
>-Surv RARELY gets to be kingmaker due to the hatred for non town roles by town thus, it commonly gets lynched and idiotic evils tend to try to kill them.
Not if they:
-Don't retardedly reveal their role
-Actually help town
-Not be retarded
>-Because of the previous point, survivor is NOT easy to play as.
False
>-There's needs to be an incentive to not hang or kill the survivor.
Survivor is a shit concept on it's own, it can join and betray any sides it wants at any time. Obviously town would kill survivors immidiately unless they did the things above.

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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu May 17, 2018 6:57 am

lemonader666 wrote:http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=36848
/thread, again.

Boredfan1 wrote:EXCEPT, town usually lynches the survivor OR a dumbass mafia/NK kills the survivor THUS, it can't be a kingmaker a lot of the time. PLUS, the survivor being a kingmaker isn't actually a bad thing, it is a pretty balanced thing all things considered since people usually pity the NK but not always so it's not skewed towards anyone and helps reduce the town's ridiculous win rate. If anything, there needs to be an incentive to not hang the survivor otherwise any changes are pointless. I suggest giving them the jester revenge mechanic which targets abstainers and guilties while the jester's targets anyone who votes innocent on them. Plus, the jester wouldn't say he will have his revenge on this rework but something else like "The Jester's death triggers dark magic!" or something.

lemonader666 wrote:>-Kingmaker isn't bad, it's balanced.
so you're saying that a kingmaker, who can decide to either give a NK or a town member the win is balanced
>-Surv RARELY gets to be kingmaker due to the hatred for non town roles by town thus, it commonly gets lynched and idiotic evils tend to try to kill them.
Not if they:
-Don't retardedly reveal their role
-Actually help town
-Not be retarded
>-Because of the previous point, survivor is NOT easy to play as.
False
>-There's needs to be an incentive to not hang or kill the survivor.
Survivor is a shit concept on it's own, it can join and betray any sides it wants at any time. Obviously town would kill survivors immidiately unless they did the things above.

t. not an idiot

Oh yeah, this was an updated one. I'll lock the other one.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu May 17, 2018 12:15 pm

lemonader666 wrote:>-Kingmaker isn't bad, it's balanced.
so you're saying that a kingmaker, who can decide to either give a NK or a town member the win is balanced
>-Surv RARELY gets to be kingmaker due to the hatred for non town roles by town thus, it commonly gets lynched and idiotic evils tend to try to kill them.
Not if they:
-Don't retardedly reveal their role
-Actually help town
-Not be retarded
>-Because of the previous point, survivor is NOT easy to play as.
False
>-There's needs to be an incentive to not hang or kill the survivor.
Survivor is a shit concept on it's own, it can join and betray any sides it wants at any time. Obviously town would kill survivors immidiately unless they did the things above.

t. not an idiot


SIGH.

1: Seeing as the neutral RARELY wins in comparison to town, the survivor possible giving them the win helps the win rate balance out a bit better and it's removal would be a nerf for neutral killing roles which is really bad seeing as they already suck.

2: If they reveal day one, they get suspicion cast upon them and they almost always get hanged by town. If they don't reveal except when asked, they are told they are lying for not revealing day one and are hanged. EVEN if they try to help town, they still tend to get lynched for not being town due to the idiotic tribalistic mentality people have. THUS, the point and following point still stands.

3: Again, survivor acts as a balancer when allowed to actually be played which is rare. Survivor tends to lean on the town side anyways so if they aren't immediately lynched, they would prove to town they can work with them. Some will pretend to work with town to help an neutral killing and that's good because again, it helps even out the win rate and if every survivor helped town, then you might as well make the survivor a town role.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby lemonader666 » Thu May 17, 2018 8:58 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:Seeing as the neutral RARELY wins in comparison to town

Boredfan1 wrote:,the survivor possible giving them the win helps the win rate balance out a bit better

oh yeah, changing the win rate of neutral to town from very rarely to a bit less very rarely is a whole lot.
Boredfan1 wrote:2: If they reveal day one, they get suspicion cast upon them and they almost always get hanged by town. If they don't reveal except when asked, they are told they are lying for not revealing day one and are hanged. EVEN if they try to help town, they still tend to get lynched for not being town due to the idiotic tribalistic mentality people have. THUS, the point and following point still stands.

Well then JUST REMOVE THE FUCKING ROLE.
Boredfan1 wrote:3: Again, survivor acts as a balancer when allowed to actually be played which is rare. Survivor tends to lean on the town side anyways so if they aren't immediately lynched, they would prove to town they can work with them. Some will pretend to work with town to help an neutral killing and that's good because again, it helps even out the win rate and if every survivor helped town, then you might as well make the survivor a town role.

Boredfan1 wrote:Again, survivor acts as a balancer when allowed to actually be played which is rare.

So you think biased balancers are fair and square?
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu May 17, 2018 11:01 pm

lemonader666 wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:Seeing as the neutral RARELY wins in comparison to town

Boredfan1 wrote:,the survivor possible giving them the win helps the win rate balance out a bit better

oh yeah, changing the win rate of neutral to town from very rarely to a bit less very rarely is a whole lot.
Boredfan1 wrote:2: If they reveal day one, they get suspicion cast upon them and they almost always get hanged by town. If they don't reveal except when asked, they are told they are lying for not revealing day one and are hanged. EVEN if they try to help town, they still tend to get lynched for not being town due to the idiotic tribalistic mentality people have. THUS, the point and following point still stands.

Well then JUST REMOVE THE FUCKING ROLE.
Boredfan1 wrote:3: Again, survivor acts as a balancer when allowed to actually be played which is rare. Survivor tends to lean on the town side anyways so if they aren't immediately lynched, they would prove to town they can work with them. Some will pretend to work with town to help an neutral killing and that's good because again, it helps even out the win rate and if every survivor helped town, then you might as well make the survivor a town role.

Boredfan1 wrote:Again, survivor acts as a balancer when allowed to actually be played which is rare.

So you think biased balancers are fair and square?


1: Seeing as people commonly leave for getting roles they hate such as neutral killing, giving them a reason to not hate the role helps the overall balance of the game.

2: The execution of the role is what's bad, not the concept of it. Hence why I suggested what I did for the role.

3: Survivors as balancers are again, for the reason stated, not a big deal. The idea is to play on the compassion and empathy of players. I've seen a lot of neutrals, particularly survivors side with the neutral killing because of how absolutely screwed they get. And it isn't just be me who has seen this, it is something most people would have seen if they played more than ten matches. This whole game is based around real people so there's no way to eliminate bias but in the grand scheme of things, the bias of survivors isn't that big of a deal when if you can't get them to help you, you get rid of them. Thus, more balance.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Thu May 17, 2018 11:03 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:
lemonader666 wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:Seeing as the neutral RARELY wins in comparison to town

Boredfan1 wrote:,the survivor possible giving them the win helps the win rate balance out a bit better

oh yeah, changing the win rate of neutral to town from very rarely to a bit less very rarely is a whole lot.
Boredfan1 wrote:2: If they reveal day one, they get suspicion cast upon them and they almost always get hanged by town. If they don't reveal except when asked, they are told they are lying for not revealing day one and are hanged. EVEN if they try to help town, they still tend to get lynched for not being town due to the idiotic tribalistic mentality people have. THUS, the point and following point still stands.

Well then JUST REMOVE THE FUCKING ROLE.
Boredfan1 wrote:3: Again, survivor acts as a balancer when allowed to actually be played which is rare. Survivor tends to lean on the town side anyways so if they aren't immediately lynched, they would prove to town they can work with them. Some will pretend to work with town to help an neutral killing and that's good because again, it helps even out the win rate and if every survivor helped town, then you might as well make the survivor a town role.

Boredfan1 wrote:Again, survivor acts as a balancer when allowed to actually be played which is rare.

So you think biased balancers are fair and square?


1: Seeing as people commonly leave for getting roles they hate such as neutral killing, giving them a reason to not hate the role helps the overall balance of the game.

2: The execution of the role is what's bad, not the concept of it. Hence why I suggested what I did for the role.

3: Survivors as balancers are again, for the reason stated, not a big deal. The idea is to play on the compassion and empathy of players. I've seen a lot of neutrals, particularly survivors side with the neutral killing because of how absolutely screwed they get. And it isn't just be me who has seen this, it is something most people would have seen if they played more than ten matches. This whole game is based around real people so there's no way to eliminate bias but in the grand scheme of things, the bias of survivors isn't that big of a deal when if you can't get them to help you, you get rid of them. Thus, more balance.

This change guarantees the chance of the role with lower WR win in these situations. NK > Maf > Town. More NK wins, yay.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Boredfan1 » Fri May 18, 2018 2:09 pm

See, the problem with that is that one, you are forcing players to play your way and two, since the survivor has the potential to side with the neutral killing in the three person situation, you just have the two person deadlock. If there's a transporter against mafioso for example, then it's a stalemate meaning it's a forced draw. I've been in a similar situation just yesterday. It was me, the mafioso and the witch versus the vet and the transporter. I made a gamble and attacked the vet in hope to hit the transporter but wasn't thinking clearly because I was overrwhelmed by the shitty situation and ended up killing the witch thanks to the transporter and I was hung. If there had been a survivor alive, they could have given me and the witch a win. Even if it is just the mafia in that example, the mafia still is vastly underpowered. That's why I can't really support this. Maybe if it was an option but even then, it's iffy.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby SillyPantsJackson » Fri May 18, 2018 5:29 pm

lemonader666 wrote:Well then JUST REMOVE THE FUCKING ROLE.


This is completely illogical. The role should not be removed simply because people who play town have no idea how to play.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Boredfan1 » Fri May 18, 2018 6:02 pm

SillyPantsJackson wrote:
lemonader666 wrote:Well then JUST REMOVE THE FUCKING ROLE.


This is completely illogical. The role should not be removed simply because people who play town have no idea how to play.


This.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby lemonader666 » Fri May 18, 2018 9:26 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:1: Seeing as people commonly leave for getting roles they hate such as neutral killing, giving them a reason to not hate the role helps the overall balance of the game.

>He uses leaving the game as an argument

Boredfan1 wrote:2: The execution of the role is what's bad, not the concept of it. Hence why I suggested what I did for the role.

The concept of survivor is terrible. It's literally just "don't die"

Boredfan1 wrote:3: Survivors as balancers are again, for the reason stated, not a big deal. The idea is to play on the compassion and empathy of players. I've seen a lot of neutrals, particularly survivors side with the neutral killing because of how absolutely screwed they get. And it isn't just be me who has seen this, it is something most people would have seen if they played more than ten matches. This whole game is based around real people so there's no way to eliminate bias but in the grand scheme of things, the bias of survivors isn't that big of a deal when if you can't get them to help you, you get rid of them. Thus, more balance.

I'm just not even gonna argue with this retarded argument

SillyPantsJackson wrote:
lemonader666 wrote:Well then JUST REMOVE THE FUCKING ROLE.


This is completely illogical. The role should not be removed simply because people who play town have no idea how to play.

The role should be removed because it's concept and mechanics are UTTERLY shit.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Boredfan1 » Sat May 19, 2018 7:58 am

lemonader666 wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:1: Seeing as people commonly leave for getting roles they hate such as neutral killing, giving them a reason to not hate the role helps the overall balance of the game.

>He uses leaving the game as an argument

Boredfan1 wrote:2: The execution of the role is what's bad, not the concept of it. Hence why I suggested what I did for the role.

The concept of survivor is terrible. It's literally just "don't die"

Boredfan1 wrote:3: Survivors as balancers are again, for the reason stated, not a big deal. The idea is to play on the compassion and empathy of players. I've seen a lot of neutrals, particularly survivors side with the neutral killing because of how absolutely screwed they get. And it isn't just be me who has seen this, it is something most people would have seen if they played more than ten matches. This whole game is based around real people so there's no way to eliminate bias but in the grand scheme of things, the bias of survivors isn't that big of a deal when if you can't get them to help you, you get rid of them. Thus, more balance.

I'm just not even gonna argue with this retarded argument

SillyPantsJackson wrote:
lemonader666 wrote:Well then JUST REMOVE THE FUCKING ROLE.


This is completely illogical. The role should not be removed simply because people who play town have no idea how to play.

The role should be removed because it's concept and mechanics are UTTERLY shit.


You don't have a comeback so you just insult me. Good job. Sarcasm. Also, you're opinion of the survivor role is just that and in the grand scheme of the game, doesn't amount to anything. I've explained why you can't just take it out and so have others. It is just a poorly executed role, not one that is completely worthless.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat May 19, 2018 8:00 am

Reminder: Please don't go off-topic.

Anyways, I'm thinking of increasing it to 4 people (including Surv).
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby lemonader666 » Sat May 19, 2018 8:01 am

Boredfan1 wrote:Good job. Sarcasm

the fuck?
Boredfan1 wrote: Also, you're opinion of the survivor role is just that and in the grand scheme of the game, doesn't amount to anything. I've explained why you can't just take it out and so have others.

Oh wow it's like none of us have already known that
BMG doesn't care about balance, they care about having more players and to have more players the game needs to be more fun which means chaos which means unbalanced roles
Boredfan1 wrote:It is just a poorly executed role, not one that is completely worthless.

Yes it is, you're just in denial.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Boredfan1 » Sat May 26, 2018 10:06 am

Lemonader, just stop. All you're doing is derailing this thread.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby TheGator » Sat May 26, 2018 11:24 am

BasicFourLife wrote:Name: Survivor
Alignment: Neutral Benign


Abilities
- Choose to put on a bulletproof, protecting you from all attacks at night.

Attributes
- You can only use the bulletproof vest 3 times. Fine
- If there are three or less players left alive (including you), you will escape from the Town the upcoming night successfully winning, if you survive that night. No thanks, Survivor should be a hero not a coward
- The Town will be announced the next day, if you have successfully escaped from Town. Not needed if escaping can only happen the way you stated above
- You will join the death-chat, if you have successfully escaped from the Town.


Special Attributes
- Attack: None
- Defense: (Basic)


Additonal Information
- I gave Survivor an alternative goal, to make it so Survivor cannot be a kingmaker in these situations. But that's what I mostly do as Survivor...
- To compensate for that, I removed one of Survivor's vests.
- You will still have access to the dead-chat, even though not being dead.


Goal: Live to the end of the game or survive until there are three or less players left alive.
Win Condition: You win with everyone. You must kill no one.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby BasicFourLife » Sat May 26, 2018 11:25 am

TheGator wrote:
BasicFourLife wrote:Name: Survivor
Alignment: Neutral Benign


Abilities
- Choose to put on a bulletproof, protecting you from all attacks at night.

Attributes
- You can only use the bulletproof vest 3 times. Fine
- If there are three or less players left alive (including you), you will escape from the Town the upcoming night successfully winning, if you survive that night. No thanks, Survivor should be a hero not a coward
- The Town will be announced the next day, if you have successfully escaped from Town. Not needed if escaping can only happen the way you stated above
- You will join the death-chat, if you have successfully escaped from the Town.


Special Attributes
- Attack: None
- Defense: (Basic)


Additonal Information
- I gave Survivor an alternative goal, to make it so Survivor cannot be a kingmaker in these situations. But that's what I mostly do as Survivor...
- To compensate for that, I removed one of Survivor's vests.
- You will still have access to the dead-chat, even though not being dead.


Goal: Live to the end of the game or survive until there are three or less players left alive.
Win Condition: You win with everyone. You must kill no one.

..this makes winning as survivor easier.. and kingmaking is the worst thing in the game
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby Zee235 » Sat May 26, 2018 11:55 am

I honestly think survivor is fine as it is. Neutral benign roles (except guardian angels) should be able to pick there side. They are meant to be kingmakers. The whole point of surv/amne is that in order to complete their goal they have to chose a side. Kingmakers are not always a bad thing it is just part of the game.
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Re: Survivor Rework

Postby TheGator » Sat May 26, 2018 11:56 am

Zee235 wrote:I honestly think survivor is fine as it is. Neutral benign roles (except guardian angels) should be able to pick there side. They are meant to be kingmakers. The whole point of surv/amne is that in order to complete their goal they have to chose a side. Kingmakers are not always a bad thing it is just part of the game.


Agreed
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Spoiler: TGVIII - Citizen - Survived - Town
TGX - Consort - Canned



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TheGator
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