RHCube wrote:I like the concept, but it could still use a few changes. The main issue with framer is that it relies on a sheriff and/or investigator being alive in order to be useful. This still has that. Here are a few changes that could fix that:
1. It should be able to choose the role their target appears as. This would allow it to fool investigators.
The Manipulator already frames players with the investigation result of the Manipulator. Giving the Manipulator the ability to make a player look like themself is the most important part of the role because it can kind of disguise their own death.
2. If a framed player dies, then they will appear as their framed role in the graveyard. If this would be overpowered, then make it only have 3 uses
Manipulating someone successfully still requires good investigation-reading, so I don't think it's too overpowered.
3. Remove the lookout interaction, and change the tracker one so the manipulator has 2 targets, and the framed player will appear to visit their second target.
Why remove the Lookout interaction? I'll think about the Tracker interaction, but I don't think it's very necessary.
4. If a jailor or vigilante kills a player framed as a town role, then it will be as if they actually killed a town role(jailor will lose executions, vig will commit suicide)
It's impossible for this to happen to a Jailor due to targets of a jailed player failing. The Vigilante doesn't need another nerf.
5. Remove the spy interaction, and just add that feedback message to hypnotist instead.
Why remove the Spy interaction? The hypnotist already has this feedback.
DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:I like the concept, but it could still use a few changes. The main issue with framer is that it relies on a sheriff and/or investigator being alive in order to be useful. This still has that. Here are a few changes that could fix that:
1. It should be able to choose the role their target appears as. This would allow it to fool investigators. Also, I mainly added this to make my second suggestion useful.
The Manipulator already frames players with the investigation result of the Manipulator. Giving the Manipulator the ability to make a player look like themself is the most important part of the role because it can kind of disguise their own death.
DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:2. If a framed player dies, then they will appear as their framed role in the graveyard. If this would be overpowered, then make it only have 3 uses
Manipulating someone successfully still requires good investigation-reading, so I don't think it's too overpowered.
DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:3. Remove the lookout interaction, and change the tracker one so the manipulator has 2 targets, and the framed player will appear to visit their second target.
Why remove the Lookout interaction? I'll think about the Tracker interaction, but I don't think it's very necessary.
DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:4. If a jailor or vigilante kills a player framed as a town role, then it will be as if they actually killed a town role(jailor will lose executions, vig will commit suicide)
It's impossible for this to happen to a Jailor due to targets of a jailed player failing. The Vigilante doesn't need another nerf.
My responses are in red.
DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:5. Remove the spy interaction, and just add that feedback message to hypnotist instead.
Why remove the Spy interaction? The hypnotist already has this feedback.
My responses are in red.
RHCube wrote:DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:I like the concept, but it could still use a few changes. The main issue with framer is that it relies on a sheriff and/or investigator being alive in order to be useful. This still has that. Here are a few changes that could fix that:
1. It should be able to choose the role their target appears as. This would allow it to fool investigators. Also, I mainly added this to make my second suggestion useful.
The Manipulator already frames players with the investigation result of the Manipulator. Giving the Manipulator the ability to make a player look like themself is the most important part of the role because it can kind of disguise their own death.
But skilled players wouldn't trust manipulator results.DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:2. If a framed player dies, then they will appear as their framed role in the graveyard. If this would be overpowered, then make it only have 3 uses
Manipulating someone successfully still requires good investigation-reading, so I don't think it's too overpowered.
Does that mean you support this change?DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:3. Remove the lookout interaction, and change the tracker one so the manipulator has 2 targets, and the framed player will appear to visit their second target.
Why remove the Lookout interaction? I'll think about the Tracker interaction, but I don't think it's very necessary.
Because lookout doesn't really need nerfs, and the tracker interaction would also fool lookouts.DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:4. If a jailor or vigilante kills a player framed as a town role, then it will be as if they actually killed a town role(jailor will lose executions, vig will commit suicide)
It's impossible for this to happen to a Jailor due to targets of a jailed player failing. The Vigilante doesn't need another nerf.
My responses are in red.
The visits could be made astral, or frames could be made permanent(this would have to be with some limits though, like only one player being framed at a time). Vig doesn't need a nerf, but it would hardcounter framer if my second suggestion was added.DragonClaw66 wrote:RHCube wrote:5. Remove the spy interaction, and just add that feedback message to hypnotist instead.
Why remove the Spy interaction? The hypnotist already has this feedback.
My responses are in red.
Because hypno should be the only mafia deception role that fakes night messages.
DragonClaw66 wrote:Just had an idea. A player's investigation results will appear as those of the "focused" player (that's the name of the second target... I just came up with it... don't judge).
DragonClaw66 wrote:(that's the name of the second target... I just came up with it... don't judge).
DragonClaw66 wrote:(4) I have already decided that manipulating players into appearing to be Town members isn't necessary.
RHCube wrote:DragonClaw66 wrote:DragonClaw66 wrote:(4) I have already decided that manipulating players into appearing to be Town members isn't necessary.
Why?
- If a manipulated player is killed by a non-Mafia on the same night or hanged on the following day, they will appear to be a Manipulator. The player’s will remains unchanged.
ElectricTacoFTW wrote:interrogated by a Sheriff, they will appear to be a member of the Mafia.
For the sheriff shouldn't the result be the focused player?
Mystoc wrote:- If a manipulated player is killed by a non-Mafia on the same night or hanged on the following day, they will appear to be a Manipulator. The player’s will remains unchanged.
does more bad than good remove this if they have the full will that makes complete sense and does not match the role
you basically confirm theres a manipulator in the game which basically makes you fooling town a lot harder
even if town knows you were already in the game if the will is well written enough very few town will believe you are actually dead
basicly this ability reveals you are in the game whereas before town might have not known this
also it can make it look as if you really died if town does all ready know you're in the game but it all hinges on how convincing the will is to town which is a gamble prolly 50/50
i would remove the last part
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yea this role is very strong and you want it to have no counters? spy is ment to counter roles like hexmaster and and disguiser and forger before it was unfair since forgers was basically push over weak and didn't deserve to be hard countered
and now thats is strong prolly as mafia support role second to only janitor you want to remove its only counter?
if you propose that spy cant see its visit you may as well just say if the role is added spy will be removed casue really what does spy have besides seeing mafia visits and now you want to add expectations to that
in my opinion this rework puts framer on as the second best mafia support after janitor it should have a town counter i mean what else would counter you vet? that counters everyone town LO can see you visit yea but they dont know what your doing you can easily claim LO since you can fake a visit on that person i see no counter to this role besides spy you shouldn't removes counter to very strong roles
if you do change spy cant see this roles visits. you should just say spy will be removed instead because you shouldn't add exceptions to an already weak role whose only ability is seeing visits which a mafia member can easily fake since they also know who they visited
You make a good point. I will remove the last part, however, it needs a new ability if this is removed. After this removal, a game with no Town Investigatives (remaining or from the beginning) would make the Manipulator useless. Maybe it could morph into the Disguiser when all Town Investigatives die (the Disguiser also needs a change).
I don't think the Spy deception part should be removed. The Manipulator still requires a lot of skill to successfully deceive. You have to target the correct player that the Sheriff, Investigator, Lookout and Tracker visit, which makes it fair. In the Psychic's case, it isn't even truly deception. Your target's name appears in the vision but there still has to be a player that is actually evil. I'm open to suggestions, so if you have one for a different Spy deception, share it.
Shilster wrote:Basic
Why do you love necroing?
BasicFourLife wrote:Shilster wrote:Basic
Why do you love necroing?
I don't really classify that as necroing.
I consider this bumping a good idea, with a response.
I actually thought that there was a more recent post, because I saw that this thread was posted a couple of months ago.
Why can't you bump a good thread yourself, if it's not your thread?
Shilster wrote:BasicFourLife wrote:Shilster wrote:Basic
Why do you love necroing?
I don't really classify that as necroing.
I consider this bumping a good idea, with a response.
I actually thought that there was a more recent post, because I saw that this thread was posted a couple of months ago.
Why can't you bump a good thread yourself, if it's not your thread?
Because fucking rules.
BasicFourLife wrote:Shilster wrote:BasicFourLife wrote:Shilster wrote:Basic
Why do you love necroing?
I don't really classify that as necroing.
I consider this bumping a good idea, with a response.
I actually thought that there was a more recent post, because I saw that this thread was posted a couple of months ago.
Why can't you bump a good thread yourself, if it's not your thread?
Because fucking rules.
so even slight necro, no allowed why though.
WHY DO U ALWAYS COMMENT ON EVERY MY POST WITH NECRO
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Stop acting like a ringleader bigot, goose.
BasicFourLife wrote:Well I do have a good reason, because this idea is a very great idea, but it was ignored / unnoticed.
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