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Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:35 pm
by timurtheking
So I recently saw an enchantress role in the role ideas section & spoke to a few others and I came up with an idea which I think could work for Coven leader but even better for Vanilla-TOS witch.

Instead of informing witch's target that they were controlled, give them the notification that they were roleblocked and put witch with escort/consort. This would give witch a strong claim and would work lore-wise. If people think this would make Witch too OP then 1 suggest 2 ideas (these aren't 100%): takeaway witch's investigative consig ability but make it so the person you control gets no notifications from their action so invest's won't know the person they checked results etc...

Not much writing here but yeah...that's my idea on how to make witch/coven leader 'better'. Also on the plus side it means we wouldn't need Enchantress as a coven role for the sake of 'countering' escort, because Witch/Coven Leader's control is already a better roleblock so I suggest my Witch change instead.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:06 pm
by kookeekwisp
Huh...
Y'know, if BMG never puts in a Coven roleblocker, this is exactly the idea coven needs!!!

/FullSupport

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:35 pm
by Blackwolfe99
I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".

Edit: However, I do like the investigative result change.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:39 pm
by timurtheking
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".


Yes but their 2 'special flowers' and this is for overall balance, I think its better to have this then a coven roleblocker or just in general a buff for witch. Instead of Witch claiming invest they can claim escort with ease/easier. With SK, yes escort/consort would of died while witch wouldn't but SK would know they were witched therefore knowing witch exists but they want witch alive anyway.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:49 pm
by Blackwolfe99
timurtheking wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".


Yes but their 2 'special flowers' and this is for overall balance, I think its better to have this then a coven roleblocker or just in general a buff for witch. Instead of Witch claiming invest they can claim escort with ease/easier. With SK, yes escort/consort would of died while witch wouldn't but SK would know they were witched therefore knowing witch exists but they want witch alive anyway.

Veteran, escort, transporter, doctor who successfully heals, BG who dies protecting someone, Investigators, Sheriff, LO who sees someone get visited, spy, VH who visits a vampire won't automatically make people realize there's a witch then?
It's not a horrible idea, but it's about as logical as the rb potion that people keep suggesting.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:50 pm
by kookeekwisp
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".

Jailor's case is as rare as a blue moon. Both targets have to be exactly right for it to work.

It's a situational thing. Invest, Psy & Sheriff will know the day they're controlled, but so can any role that can be notified, like TP and Transporter. (wait, transporter is immune to both...)

You should also make it so the target is blind to all notifications if their ability succeeds, except RB-immune roles.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:51 pm
by timurtheking
kookeekwisp wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".

Jailor's case is as rare as a blue moon. Both targets have to be exactly right for it to work.

It's a situational thing. Invest, Psy & Sheriff will know the day they're controlled, but so can any role that can be notified, like TP and Transporter. (wait, transporter is immune to both...)

You should also make it so the target is blind to all notifications if their ability succeeds, except RB-immune roles.


all notifications including stuff that happens to you like attacked but healed etc?

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:52 pm
by timurtheking
Blackwolfe99 wrote:
timurtheking wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".


Yes but their 2 'special flowers' and this is for overall balance, I think its better to have this then a coven roleblocker or just in general a buff for witch. Instead of Witch claiming invest they can claim escort with ease/easier. With SK, yes escort/consort would of died while witch wouldn't but SK would know they were witched therefore knowing witch exists but they want witch alive anyway.

Veteran, escort, transporter, doctor who successfully heals, BG who dies protecting someone, Investigators, Sheriff, LO who sees someone get visited, spy, VH who visits a vampire won't automatically make people realize there's a witch then?
It's not a horrible idea, but it's about as logical as the rb potion that people keep suggesting.
but a lot of these situations are rare like witch making doc heal someone from an attack etc

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:04 pm
by kookeekwisp
timurtheking wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".

Jailor's case is as rare as a blue moon. Both targets have to be exactly right for it to work.

It's a situational thing. Invest, Psy & Sheriff will know the day they're controlled, but so can any role that can be notified, like TP and Transporter. (wait, transporter is immune to both...)

You should also make it so the target is blind to all notifications if their ability succeeds, except RB-immune roles.


all notifications including stuff that happens to you like attacked but healed etc?

No, just the ones caused by you using your role's ability.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:06 pm
by Blackwolfe99
timurtheking wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:
timurtheking wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".


Yes but their 2 'special flowers' and this is for overall balance, I think its better to have this then a coven roleblocker or just in general a buff for witch. Instead of Witch claiming invest they can claim escort with ease/easier. With SK, yes escort/consort would of died while witch wouldn't but SK would know they were witched therefore knowing witch exists but they want witch alive anyway.

Veteran, escort, transporter, doctor who successfully heals, BG who dies protecting someone, Investigators, Sheriff, LO who sees someone get visited, spy, VH who visits a vampire won't automatically make people realize there's a witch then?
It's not a horrible idea, but it's about as logical as the rb potion that people keep suggesting.
but a lot of these situations are rare like witch making doc heal someone from an attack etc

Investigators always get a notification when they investigate someone (except Jugg)
Sheriff gets his interrogation notification
Spy sees mafia visits
First three are immune to rb

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:07 pm
by Blackwolfe99
kookeekwisp wrote:
timurtheking wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".

Jailor's case is as rare as a blue moon. Both targets have to be exactly right for it to work.

It's a situational thing. Invest, Psy & Sheriff will know the day they're controlled, but so can any role that can be notified, like TP and Transporter. (wait, transporter is immune to both...)

You should also make it so the target is blind to all notifications if their ability succeeds, except RB-immune roles.


all notifications including stuff that happens to you like attacked but healed etc?

No, just the ones caused by you using your role's ability.

Basically the point I'm trying to make

Edit: Even with this, Witch just becomes buffed escort/consort.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:18 pm
by kookeekwisp
Well, remove the investigative ability, or it's autovest.
I vote Autovest for Witch, and Invest for CL.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:00 pm
by lemonader666
This could give witch a really good fakeclaim, but i don't know how it will do to the roles that get a result at the end of their night. Maybe the target doesn't get any result from their night action but instead the witch does? That could be good.
/support

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:04 pm
by JGaming08
This is actually a really good idea!
So, if this were added will it be added into the Escort, Transporter, Consort, Hypnotist or Witch correct?
Anyways,

/Support!

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:04 am
by timurtheking
Blackwolfe99 wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:
timurtheking wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".

Jailor's case is as rare as a blue moon. Both targets have to be exactly right for it to work.

It's a situational thing. Invest, Psy & Sheriff will know the day they're controlled, but so can any role that can be notified, like TP and Transporter. (wait, transporter is immune to both...)

You should also make it so the target is blind to all notifications if their ability succeeds, except RB-immune roles.


all notifications including stuff that happens to you like attacked but healed etc?

No, just the ones caused by you using your role's ability.

Basically the point I'm trying to make

Edit: Even with this, Witch just becomes buffed escort/consort.

If u think about it witch is already a 'buffed escort' controls are basicallt better roleblocks

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:45 am
by Blackwolfe99
timurtheking wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:
timurtheking wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:I disagree, but I'm also considering something that I imagine was overlooked: Roleblock immune roles, Vigilante, and Jailor.
Roles like SK who kill roleblockers and roles who are immune to roleblock are going to instantly make this ineffective.
Then we go onto Vigilante or Jailor who get "roleblocked". In Vig's case a town member dies and they die from guilt the following night or in Jailor's case their target is executed despite the fact that they were "roleblocked".

Jailor's case is as rare as a blue moon. Both targets have to be exactly right for it to work.

It's a situational thing. Invest, Psy & Sheriff will know the day they're controlled, but so can any role that can be notified, like TP and Transporter. (wait, transporter is immune to both...)

You should also make it so the target is blind to all notifications if their ability succeeds, except RB-immune roles.


all notifications including stuff that happens to you like attacked but healed etc?

No, just the ones caused by you using your role's ability.

Basically the point I'm trying to make

Edit: Even with this, Witch just becomes buffed escort/consort.

If u think about it witch is already a 'buffed escort' controls are basicallt better roleblocks

Stun vs mind control argument.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:19 pm
by kookeekwisp
First off, delete old quotes in your post or put some in a spoiler.
Second, in what way is mind control WORSE than roleblocking?

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:32 pm
by Blackwolfe99
kookeekwisp wrote:First off, delete old quotes in your post or put some in a spoiler.
Second, in what way is mind control WORSE than roleblocking?

First, You should see the other constantly requoted post discussions I've been in.

Second, I didn't say worse, in fact no one did. I'm saying that it's the same arguments used for deciding which is better for crowd control: Mind Control or Stun? Result almost always being that they have different uses.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:55 am
by kookeekwisp
Blackwolfe99 wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:First off, delete old quotes in your post or put some in a spoiler.
Second, in what way is mind control WORSE than roleblocking?

First, You should see the other constantly requoted post discussions I've been in.

Second, I didn't say worse, in fact no one did. I'm saying that it's the same arguments used for deciding which is better for crowd control: Mind Control or Stun? Result almost always being that they have different uses.

That would imply that BOTH abilities have disadvantages to the other.
If one is in no way worse than the other, there's nothing it can't do that RBing can't do worse, so controlling is in every way better than roleblocking. Is that right?

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:01 am
by Blackwolfe99
kookeekwisp wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:First off, delete old quotes in your post or put some in a spoiler.
Second, in what way is mind control WORSE than roleblocking?

First, You should see the other constantly requoted post discussions I've been in.

Second, I didn't say worse, in fact no one did. I'm saying that it's the same arguments used for deciding which is better for crowd control: Mind Control or Stun? Result almost always being that they have different uses.

That would imply that BOTH abilities have disadvantages to the other.
If one is in no way worse than the other, there's nothing it can't do that RBing can't do worse, so controlling is in every way better than roleblocking. Is that right?

No, in fact what you're saying contradicts the earlier statement. Roleblocking completely stops someone from using their ability, whereas Controlling forces them to use it on someone else based on the controller's choice. You can't stop a killing role as a witch without basically sacrificing yourself or making the killer attack themself (Obviously not working with vet, WW, SK, GF, Arso, or Pestilence) whereas a roleblocker can with obvious deadly exceptions.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:52 am
by kookeekwisp
Again, you haven't proved my statement wrong in the least. They're not the same, but there's absolutely no consequence worse than Escort to using your ability, if you don't make them visit you.

The only exception to this rule is the reason this thread was made in the first place!

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:26 am
by Blackwolfe99
Analyze pros and cons of both and tell me how controlling is better beyond knowing your target's role. (Which was a buff specifically made so Witch could find allies)

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:36 am
by kookeekwisp
Blackwolfe99 wrote:Analyze pros and cons of both and tell me how controlling is better beyond knowing your target's role. (Which was a buff specifically made so Witch could find allies)

Off the top of my head?
-Target can visit confirmed Veteran
-You don't die to SK and WW
-Can make any TP protect you
-Force a Vigilante to shoot someone AND themselves
-Make Jailor execute a Townie

Oh i can go on.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:38 am
by Blackwolfe99
kookeekwisp wrote:
Blackwolfe99 wrote:Analyze pros and cons of both and tell me how controlling is better beyond knowing your target's role. (Which was a buff specifically made so Witch could find allies)

Off the top of my head?
-Target can visit confirmed Veteran Only works if Vet alerts when you send them.
-You don't die to SK and WW Granted, but if WW gets roleblocked Witch is fucked.
-Can make any TP protect you If there are any.
-Force a Vigilante to shoot someone AND themselves True, happens more often than not.
-Make Jailor execute a Townie This is so rare, it really doesn't apply.

Oh i can go on.

Re: Witch change/buff?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:00 pm
by kookeekwisp
The point you're trying to make still doesn't make sense :/
Since you won't, i will

-Can mistake Killings for TP (without knowing role)
-Target knows Scum is visiting them (Being debated)
-Can make TP protect themselves & kill you

Two of these are considering you don't choose a target & someone other than your target and you.
As long as you do that, everything bad would happen as normal