The Bratva Faction - Feedback Please (1400+ Views)

[Gooose26]

Likw bro a couple dys ago you were saying that this needed more comments, but then he comments and you just told him he's wrong, like wtf? At least argue your point lol

[BuckeyeNation]

Urgh. Fine, I'll bite. I wasn't trying to just ignore you; I just disagreed so hard that my "political posts on Facebook since September" reaction kicked in and I tried not to engage. I'm sorry.

- Suggesting that this would switch Town's 80% winrate to guaranteed victories for Bratva is more than a little ludicrous.

- You made a lot of things sound so very complicated; they're really not. For starters:
- Brigadier is just "visit person, scare away visitors", not some sort of mishmash Franken-role with a lot of elements.
- The dual nature of the Assassin's killing has strategic importance, not a matter of necessity. Kill like normal, or kill their visitors only. I nerfed both modes a little bit specifically to avoid OP-ness.
- Assassin can kill like a Mafioso nerfed against TP just fine if you want to. Or you can burn a night to go be a sniper, but not be able to touch some of the most important roles in the game. Whichever way, it's still not an overcomplicated concept. There's a risk/reward to both ways.
- Mystic is "block others, or help Bratva". Still not complicated.
- Ventriloquist actions are announced at the start of a day cycle. You'd think that people would figure out that the person spouting Nazi rhetoric that day might be the puppet and wait to report the Ventriloquist instead.
- The point of Enforcer is to garble their text and make them lose seeing day chat, not killing. The kill after the third day was just added earlier today, it's not a core mechanism.
- Spotter is a rehash of Lookout, which has no Mafia counterpart. Given this Faction's "Visiting Counter-Offensive" dynamic, it fits.
- Enforcer and Spotter do not have a Mafia counterpart.
- Identity Thief and Deceiver, yes, are rehashes of Mafia roles.
- Having a framer-type role is going to be a necessity no matter what Faction is being played against. The only difference Deceiver has is that it ups the consequences of a mislynch. I can tone those down if needed.
- Identity Thief is only different from Janitor in that you keep a role to claim instead of the inherent weakness of being forced to claim Medium.
- I'd actually argue that Consigliere is OP compared to Informant. Consigliere gets their exact role; Informant gets all 3 options like an Investigator. They do get to see who the target visits, but that has situational strategic value. Hardly OP.

In conclusion:
Roles Unlike Mafia - Brigadier, Spotter, Enforcer
Roles Dissimilar Enough To Mafia - Assassin, Mystic, Ventriloquist
Rehashes of Mafia - Deceiver, Identity Thief

I would call that different enough from Mafia to offer a different gameplay experience for people that are tired of always playing against Godfather and Mafioso.

[BuckeyeNation]

Furthermore:

Role ideas and mechanics repeat because they are essential to how the game progresses, not because of laziness and unoriginality. A faction would need a Boss. A killer. A spy. A roleblocker. An investigative. A framer. Not because they are unoriginal, but because these are roles that need to be present for the game to even work. You can't be spyless. You can't lack a roleblocker. You can't just have zero investigative power. You need to have the possibility of a Framer. These mechanics need to be present for a Faction pitch to work.

So yeah, every faction pitch will share elements with Mafia. It's what's different that makes the gameplay experience unique. My "Godfather" is entirely different. My "Mafioso" is entirely different. That's most of the game right there.

[HereThereEverywhere]

We need new factions to keep the game from getting stale, you guys say.
We need to reuse these ideas, to keep the factions from being terrible, you guys say.

[Gooose26]

We need new factions to keep the game from getting staleI feel like a lot of people already feel it's stale, you guys say.Yes we do
We need to reuseReinvent would be a better idea these ideas, to keep the factions from being terribleNot terrible, more like complete, you guys say.Yes we do

We nwed new factions to make the game less stale, you guys say.

We need to reinvent these ideas, to make the factions complete, you guys say

That's how I'd say it

[HereThereEverywhere]

I wont argue that the ideas are different, at least.

[BuckeyeNation]

Yeah, it turns out that you can't just radically alter gameplay and have it remain the same game. There's actually balancing concerns that are the reason for certain roles to exist. Weird, right?

[HereThereEverywhere]

Radical changes =/= unbalanced game.
They don't always make for unbalanced or bad changes, but in the wrong hands they definitely would.

[Gooose26]

Yea you could radically change every single role in the game and still have a balnced role. Like if every single card got some sort of buff, then it equals out but plays completely different. Some people have suggested we use towns that cant do anything, but if we debuff the mafia with that thwn it equals out.

[BuckeyeNation]

So.... given that BMG announced the Witches Coven expansion to severely mixed reactions, I'd like to resubmit the Bratva Faction idea, lol. It'd be nice to see feedback with fresh eyes, especially after seeing the new roles that Blank Media Games is putting into the game.

[Gooose26]

So.... given that BMG announced the Witches Coven expansion to severely mixed reactions, I'd like to resubmit the Bratva Faction idea, lol. It'd be nice to see feedback with fresh eyes, especially after seeing the new roles that Blank Media Games is putting into the game.

Well the reason that it died out was because it was mafia-like. As in, even though it is really balanced(in my opinion at least), the roles could work 100% in the mafia, and that's why some people may believe that it is stupid to make a new faction. Have any changes bsen made recently, I remember this pretty well I believe...

But it needs some aspects that make it different than the mafia. Like my cult is based off of guessing who will get lynched, and having more kill-capable roles with less kpn, instead of just 1 player with 1 kpn

[BuckeyeNation]

Well the reason that it died out was because it was mafia-like. As in, even though it is really balanced(in my opinion at least), the roles could work 100% in the mafia

I see what you're saying, but at the same time, I disagree. The Godfather/Mafioso dynamic is quite different from the Brigadier/Assassin dynamic, and that's 2/3 of the faction. The Random Bratva roles have similarities to Random Mafia roles, particularly at the bottom of the list, but I think they're different enough to make gameplay feel different, especially at the top.

Also, I dislike how BMG gave the Mafia another RM killing role that basically does the sniper half of Assassin. That'll be a bloodbath with 2 maf killers out there. At least Assassin has both in the same role, lol

[Gooose26]

Well the reason that it died out was because it was mafia-like. As in, even though it is really balanced(in my opinion at least), the roles could work 100% in the mafia

I see what you're saying, but at the same time, I disagree. The Godfather/Mafioso dynamic is quite different from the Brigadier/Assassin dynamic, and that's 2/3 of the faction. The Random Bratva roles have similarities to Random Mafia roles, particularly at the bottom of the list, but I think they're different enough to make gameplay feel different, especially at the top.

Also, I dislike how BMG gave the Mafia another RM killing role that basically does the sniper half of Assassin. That'll be a bloodbath with 2 maf killers out there. At least Assassin has both in the same role, lol

Brigadier - Godfather that will scare his targets away, basically more power
Assassin - Mafioso that has the ability to perch up if needed, so not necessarily overpowered but more powerful in the sense it has options
Random Bratva - Roles based on mafia roles, but redone in a similar way. The thing is that they could all fit into the mafia just fine.

So you have more powerful Godfather, more powerful Mafioso, and then Random Mafia roles that would work just fine in the mafia. So it might as well be a log of mafia buffs/new roles. I think it would work great that way, but you clearly want a new faction. It has to be drastically different.

When you look at the Coven, would you even remotely think of the mafia? Sure it sucks ***, but they are still different. BMG needs to work on balancing, you need to work on uniqueness.

[Mroz4k]

I am not going to get into the individual roles right now, maybe sometime later when I have the time to go through them and decide them individually, if I ever find the time.

But I dont like this in general, for similar reasons I dont like the new Witch faction in TOS DLC. Not that there is anything wrong with new roles or new factions, but they tend to screw around with balance way too much, as its a major change in-game.

I also dont like the fact you would replace Mafia with this faction entirely. It would be simply better to put in a rule that only two "major" factions can be in-game. Meaning you could have Mafia vs Bratva kind of game where there would be 4-5 members of each faction pitted in against each other, and then 5 neutrals to fill in the blanks. Such a multiball (game with multiple "Mafias" would be balanced in its own way, and can be a lot of fun).
But considering there are 15 players only, it would be impossible to pit 3 factions against each other and expect them to have similar win chances.

soon we could have enough factions for a Faction Tournament

Thats a pretty dumb statement considering the game still requires 15 players tops, so more then two factions against each other is just hardly possible. 3 at most, maybe. Any more then that and you have the issue of vote confliction. If there are only two factions, then the votes will be split roughly half way. Three factions, 3 ways. etc. Meaning that the game would no longer be governed by voting, but simply by killing at night, and other role actions during the night.

Not saying it wouldnt be viable, but the game would be mostly determined by how good is individual killer for each faction, and their ability to steer towards victory. It wouldnt be very engaging for the rest of that faction.

[BuckeyeNation]

Not that there is anything wrong with new roles or new factions, but they tend to screw around with balance way too much, as its a major change in-game.

I also dont like the fact you would replace Mafia with this faction entirely. It would be simply better to put in a rule that only two "major" factions can be in-game.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it would replace the Mafia entirely. Heavens no, I'll try to make that more obvious. Just a faction for players to tee off against instead of Mafia with a different power structure than Mafia. ToS can get repetitive; it would be nice to have the option of playing against something other than Godfather and Mafioso every now and then. And option is the word I want to emphasize. (fixed the wording in the original post)

soon we could have enough factions for a Faction Tournament

Thats a pretty dumb statement considering the game still requires 15 players tops, so more then two factions against each other is just hardly possible.

He meant like there are role idea tournaments, there are/were a few different faction ideas going around. It's a forum thing.

[BuckeyeNation]

I'm going to start trying to rework the bottom few roles in this pitch because I know I can do better. If you have any ideas, please feel free to pitch in.

Alternate concept for Identity Thief to differentiate it from Janitor a little bit. What do you think? Changes in red.

The Identity Thief - Original
Spoiler: Name: Identity Thief

Alignment: Bratva Deception

Abilities: Choose a person to clean at night and claim their role the following day.

Attributes: If your target dies their role and last will won't be revealed to the Town.
Only you will see the cleaned targets role and last will.
If lynched, your role in the Graveyard will appear as the first cleaned person’s role. [Your own Will still appears]
If killed during night phase, your role will show up as Bratva.
You may only perform 3 cleanings.
If there are no kill capable Bratva roles left, you will become an Assassin.

Special Attributes: none

Goal: Kill all who will not submit to the will of the Bratva.

Win Conditions: Wins with Bratva, Witch, and Survivor; Must kill Town/etc

Investigative Results: Sheriff- Your target is a member of the Bratva!
Investigator – Your target works with dead bodies. They must be a Medium, Identity Thief, or Electrician.
Consigliere/Witch – Your target steals their victim’s role. They must be an Identity Thief!

Skin/Avatar: In my mind, I picture an Observer from Fringe. Taller, skinny, bald, suit with hat.

The Identity Thief - Reworked
Spoiler: Name: Identity Thief

Alignment: Bratva Deception

Abilities: [Choose a person to kill and clean at night, and claim their role for the rest of the game.]

Attributes: [You may only kill and clean a target one time.]
If your target dies, their role and last will won't be revealed to the Town.
Only you will see the cleaned target's role and last will.
[The cleaned target will not be able to communicate in the afterlife for the day/night following their death, but can after.]
[You become your target's role entirely, with full access to their night ability, but are still a member of the Bratva.]
[After killing/cleaning, investigative results will match those of the Identity claimed.]
[When killed, your identity will be revealed as Bratva.]
If there are no kill capable Bratva roles left, you will become an Assassin.

Special Attributes: none

Goal: Kill all who will not submit to the will of the Bratva.

Win Conditions: Wins with Bratva, Witch, and Survivor; Must kill Town/etc

Investigative Results: Sheriff- Your target is a member of the Bratva!
Investigator – Your target works with dead bodies. They must be a Medium, Identity Thief, or Electrician.
Consigliere/Witch – Your target steals their victim’s role. They must be an Identity Thief!
[After killing/cleaning, investigative results will match those of the Identity claimed.]

Skin/Avatar: In my mind, I picture an Observer from Fringe. Taller, skinny, bald, suit with hat.

Reasons I Like The Change
Spoiler: This role is only as good as the person playing it. You get one kill/clean and you're stuck with it for the rest of the game. Several different strategies to go with - do you steal survivor and get the vests? Do you steal Doctor and spam healing on the Assassin? Do you accidentally steal Sheriff and become absolutely useless? Each game is a new challenge, since there are different philosophies in playing it. Do you wait to deliberately target, or just random n1 and hope for the best?

Also, for a Mystic enhancement, I'm thinking keeping the victim silent in the afterlife indefinitely, or having the kill be able to pierce immunity. Which would be better?

[Gooose26]

Well how is it deception then? Now it's a killing role.

[BuckeyeNation]

I guess. It only kills one time total though. After that, much more deception.

[Mystoc]

looks good but is obv better than mafia in every situation some of you roles are basically two mafia role combines most times

Spotter- is LO but can target other Bratva - fools spy ( this is your only role that isn't two combined)

informant - is tracker + invesg/sherrif - sometimes(this also makes it a consig for LO invest and sheriff and spy) + ( you will know if they find NK or your allies)

assassin - mafioso(weaker to tp) + (a bit weaker veteran) + (a risk free asro one night to douse then ignite same idea but bg cant stop you and LO doesn't see you)

Brigadier - is clearly GF + mass reverse role blocking consort

Identity Thief - is disguiser(is permanent once they die) + janitor

Mystic - consort + plus very strong buff stuff that mafia doesn't have

Deceiver - is framer + janitor(if hanged)

well i get that you won't get this faction all the time it will just feel bad when u end getting mafia as the evil faction instead of this faction it will definitely cause people to leave if they get mafia over this awesome faction

of course if BMG like this faction idea enough they will just make it a different game mode for it like they did for witches and make it 10 dollar expansion that way you will always get Bratva over mafia

basicly having it so you can get this faction or mafia clearly won't work cause this is clearly better it would have to be its own game mode like with coven

this faction is very well thought out and i like these ideas / roles and will give town aactual trouble but have mafia and Bratva alternations won't work

i'd be all for this replacing mafia too mafia is just too weak

[BuckeyeNation]

I agree that the Random Bratva roles are more powerful than the Random Mafia roles.

To be fair though, most of the Random Mafia roles kinda suck, even being entirely useless in a game with a Spy.

I'm looking to rework some of the roles at the moment (Brigadier could use a debuff; for example, taking away night immunity), but I'm actually pretty happy with some of them. What do you think of the Identity Thief rework a few posts ago?

[Mystoc]

no they are good well thought out role is just mafia is just bad compared to them if you can't really nerf them to the level of mafia without taking away what they do

it would be good if this was its own game mode like the coven

edit new identity thief looks worse i like the idea of claiming their role(with no abilities) if you get them hanged and and no one knowing what it was (sorta like deceiver + identify theif but with no framing)

just killing them and cleaning them is OP and boring you even made it so they cant talk in dead chat that's a big nono to me

also identify theif and deceiver both share cleaning abilities this is bad you might need to rework one having overlap of abilities makes roles un unique look at forger and janitor