Rogue (Neutral Evil) (8000+ Views!) (Overhauled)

[MisterHollywood]

I really like this, but change the name. It doesn't really work because he doesn't want to be a rogue reallly, he wants to be a team. Also, I suggested a role called rogue, and idk what to call it other than that lol . Another thing is, expand allies to all neutrals, and make it so you only have 3 chances. So if you're allies die 3 times you become a jester whether or not there are more neutrals left.

Btw, if you want me to change the name of mine, here's a link so you can check it out and suggest what name I should give it since I honestly am having a blank. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=70277

Name change I can get behind. I don't think it's completely necessary, but Rogue doesn't really fit what this role is.

Also I don't think Rogue should side with all Neutrals. There are only 4 Neutrals: Benign, Evil, Chaos, and Killing. Benign and Evil can already win with everyone, and there's not much point of siding with Chaos since Pirate can win with all and Rogues can't be converted to Vampires. So really it'd only side with Plaguebearer and Pestilence. Rogue being exclusive to Killing is exactly what Killing needs, especially now that Benign is out of Ranked Practice.

[lemonader666]

This is a really great concept but it's lacking of Witch and Mafia, which is bad for a NE.

[Y3E]

> They could be a Spy, Blackmailer, or a Rogue." (I never understood why Jailor was paired with these two)

Because Jailor knows your darkest secrets. And so do the Blackmailer and the Spy.

[MisterHollywood]

> They could be a Spy, Blackmailer, or a Rogue." (I never understood why Jailor was paired with these two)

Because Jailor knows your darkest secrets. And so do the Blackmailer and the Spy.

And apparently the Guardian Angel.

[lemonader666]

> They could be a Spy, Blackmailer, or a Rogue." (I never understood why Jailor was paired with these two)

Because Jailor knows your darkest secrets. And so do the Blackmailer and the Spy.

And apparently the Guardian Angel.

Cause GA knows their target.

[Venusupreme]

I realize now that this role does not fit the spirit of Neutral Evil, as it can only help some evil roles win, and not all of them. I have changed it to Neutral Chaos.

[Chloe42]

I think there's promising stuff here but I have some problems with certain attributes.

1.I don't think reading whispers is necessary in order for this character to find a NK and win. Especially now that the spy cannot.
2. Say you know there's a Juggernaut that's getting pretty powerful,but you haven't found him yet and boom you find an SK that's probably about to lose. You should be able to choose whether you want to be their ally or not if you believe the Jugg has a better chance at winning. Otherwise it's like if the game forced the Ret to choose someone on N3 regardless of if they thought a better role might come along.
3. Your goal should be to find an ally. If your ally dies you have to find a new one. If there are no more NK you shoot yourself like the vig. I can hear you saying already "What if the Godfather kills the only NK in the game a Jugg on N1 how is that fair to the Rogue?" Well how is it fair to the Jugg?
4. Rogue should be a unique role. There is no reason for a SK or WW to have a posse of 2-3 Rogues to help vote with him.

On the other hand
1. The idea of coming together with an otherwise solo killer at night is a powerful and unique tool, keep on the condition that the above changes be made.
2. Getting rid of the ability to read whispers balances the Rogues ability to act as a pseudo Consigliere for the NK faction which is also incredibly powerful.
3. If an arsonist douses you and you become allies with him he will kill you, and if you become him before he ignites you will unknowingly kill yourself because you will still be doused. He should tell you in night chat that you're doused but you can't rely on people's memory like that. This is why you shouldn't become your ally.
4. The only way I could see you becoming your ally's role is if the town is alerted like an amnesiac "A serial killer has a new ally" or something like that. Again this would make partnering with the arsonist extremely difficult as they want to remain hidden.

[Venusupreme]

I think there's promising stuff here but I have some problems with certain attributes.

1.I don't think reading whispers is necessary in order for this character to find a NK and win. Especially now that the spy cannot.
2. Say you know there's a Juggernaut that's getting pretty powerful,but you haven't found him yet and boom you find an SK that's probably about to lose. You should be able to choose whether you want to be their ally or not if you believe the Jugg has a better chance at winning. Otherwise it's like if the game forced the Ret to choose someone on N3 regardless of if they thought a better role might come along.
3. Your goal should be to find an ally. If your ally dies you have to find a new one. If there are no more NK you shoot yourself like the vig. I can hear you saying already "What if the Godfather kills the only NK in the game a Jugg on N1 how is that fair to the Rogue?" Well how is it fair to the Jugg?
4. Rogue should be a unique role. There is no reason for a SK or WW to have a posse of 2-3 Rogues to help vote with him.

On the other hand
1. The idea of coming together with an otherwise solo killer at night is a powerful and unique tool, keep on the condition that the above changes be made.
2. Getting rid of the ability to read whispers balances the Rogues ability to act as a pseudo Consigliere for the NK faction which is also incredibly powerful.
3. If an arsonist douses you and you become allies with him he will kill you, and if you become him before he ignites you will unknowingly kill yourself because you will still be doused. He should tell you in night chat that you're doused but you can't rely on people's memory like that. This is why you shouldn't become your ally.
4. The only way I could see you becoming your ally's role is if the town is alerted like an amnesiac "A serial killer has a new ally" or something like that. Again this would make partnering with the arsonist extremely difficult as they want to remain hidden.

1. Agreed, now that the spy can't read whispers, I'll go ahead and remove that. The only reason it existed was because I believe Spy/BMer/Rogue was a balanced Invest result back when the Spy could read whispers.

2. I suppose that's true, but sometimes, stuff happens and you're just screwed. And besides, you don't really HAVE to check someone each night...

3. I'm going to have to disagree. The point of this role is to buff NK, and by giving them a "one-up" in a way, like a more helpful Amnesiac. As for shooting yourself like a Vigilante... definitely no. You might get REALLY unlucky and the only NK may die before you find them, but I think that if this is the case, becoming a Jester makes more sense. After all, what if an Executioner's target is killed Night 1?

4. I don't really think it matters that much... I'll create a new poll on the topic since most people are clearly in favor of the Rogue being a one-up to their ally's faction in the current poll.


As for the Arsonist part, I'm pretty sure I said somewhere that if you are doused and you then become allied with an Arsonist, you automatically become undoused. If I never said that anywhere, then I am a moron.

And yes, I do agree that the town should be notified "A Rogue has replaced the X!" whenever their ally dies, either at the start of the day, or immediately if their target is hanged.

Thank you for your comment, it was quite possibly the most well-thought out and helpful reply I've gotten.

[Venusupreme]

I realize now that this role does not fit the spirit of Neutral Evil, as it can only help some evil roles win, and not all of them. I have changed it to Neutral Chaos.

That's true or not, still hurts Town. You should make a poll~

It does hurt Town, yes, but it also hurts the Mafia. I mean, imagine having a Rogue in a game as opposed to a Witch.

[Seththeking]

I can’t say I like this or dislike this, I mean the whole thing is an interesting concept HOWEVER
There is no way you will be able to play it in the current Ranked and there’s still a chance on All Any their could be no NK, however for the role itself is good. /HalfSupport

[Venusupreme]

I can’t say I like this or dislike this, I mean the whole thing is an interesting concept HOWEVER
There is no way you will be able to play it in the current Ranked and there’s still a chance on All Any their could be no NK, however for the role itself is good. /HalfSupport

I made this back when Ranked had an Any. Also, I believe I said somewhere in the post that Rogues can not be in the game if there are no Neutral Killings. If I didn't, I'll go and edit that in there.

[Venusupreme]

I’ve finally hit 5,000 views, and have finally been accepted to at least be considered for the Testing Grounds.

Given how old the role is at this point, I’m going to retire all polls. I don’t see much of a need for them anymore, since they’ve always pretty much pointed overwhelmingly toward one option.

[Mystoc]

I’ve finally hit 5,000 views, and have finally been accepted to at least be considered for the Testing Grounds.

Given how old the role is at this point, I’m going to retire all polls. I don’t see much of a need for them anymore, since they’ve always pretty much pointed overwhelmingly toward one option.

seen this role before its a good role

only pet peeve is NE is supposed to be able to win with everyone evil not just NK so teeeeechnically it doesn't fit the requirements of NE but i do agree this fits NE best though

this is sorta like GA but for NK only i see this fitting best in custom games where more than one NK is allowed and idea list for funzies would 2 NK and the rogue and
3 mafia and then rest are town slots

but it could be viable in ranked too


edit: prolly cant change anything since its been accepted to TG

byt have you thought of making it immune to NK like if they try to kill you before you have found them you become their ally instead of dying or is that to strong? it would sorta be like orphan i guess from TG in that regard

[Venusupreme]

It was NE a very long time ago. Several months back I changed it to NC since it can’t win with Mafia. If it was immune to NK, that might make it a bit less luck-based early on, though it shouldn’t have a true auto-vest like the Witch does since Mafia would actually want Rogues to die (eventually).

[Venusupreme]

I’ve made one or two more edits to the role to make some things a bit clearer, and removed a few things that were no longer necessary due to the game being updated since I’d initially put them in.

[Mystoc]

personally i would remove the basic defense once you find ally

i would make the visit to find an ally an astral visit so it doesn't die to ww / vet / ambusher / medusa since all its visit is find an ally it shouldnt be punished for visiting the wrong person

this role should be kill able before it becomes NK and gets a basic defense i think this promotes killing you first before your NK ally which is smart and will buy ur NK time also it promotes this role keeping itself under the radar and not drawing attacks to itself because it wont have a basic defense

and instead have so if NK attacks you before you have found them you become their ally instead

this way its way less likely to die before it finds an ally and once it does it only fears vig and mafia

[Venusupreme]

personally i would remove the basic defense once you find ally

i would make the visit to find an ally an astral visit so it doesn't die to ww / vet / ambusher / medusa since all its visit is find an ally it shouldnt be punished for visiting the wrong person

this role should be kill able before it becomes NK and gets a basic defense i think this promotes killing you first before your NK ally which is smart and will buy ur NK time also it promotes this role keeping itself under the radar and not drawing attacks to itself because it wont have a basic defense

and instead have so if NK attacks you before you have found them you become their ally instead

this way its way less likely to die before it finds an ally and once it does it only fears vig and mafia

Well, you really shouldn’t be trying to draw attention to yourself anyway, but I already added in that part about not being harmed by NK visits.

I disagree about it being an astral visit and about not being Night immune; this role’s initial objective is to find an ally. If they lose night immunity after that, then people may be inclined to wait until the last second to pair up with someone, which defeats the purpose. And Werewolf can never kill this role unless a Rogue already has an different ally. Ambusher, Lookout, Medusa, And Veteran should still be able to kill Rogues as it’s only fair, and I don’t want Rogue to be completely overpowered.

[Mystoc]

what about if it dies when it has its ally all ready it appears has the role it is an ally with?

like disguiser, so if sk was your ally and you died while rogue you appear as sk to town
and get their inves results like disguiser does

this would let the sk choose to not attack anymore if he had lots heat on him as being sk before and was about to get hanged and surprise attack town later towards end of game

i still think this role should not have a basic defense once it finds its ally

but its your role doesn't look i will change your mind

[Venusupreme]

I can sorta see the part about him appearing as his ally’s role working... if Rogue doesn’t get sent off to the Testing stage, as it likely won’t, I’ll make a few more adjustments...

[Venusupreme]

Welp, I'm back from the dead. Anyone have a decent idea for how to convert this into a NE role? I know those still have to be able to win with Mafia/Coven too, but I'm hoping to create something that more heavily favors NK and only wins with Mafia/Coven if there are no other options.

[Venusupreme]

Welp, I'm back from the dead. Anyone have a decent idea for how to convert this into a NE role? I know those still have to be able to win with Mafia/Coven too, but I'm hoping to create something that more heavily favors NK and only wins with Mafia/Coven if there are no other options.

Roles that can win with multiple alignments shouldn't be biased towards any.

And that's kinda my problem. I don't want this to be another NE that just sides with Mafia and screws over the WW 9 games out of 10 like Witch.

[Venusupreme]

Alrighty, I just went through and gave the role a significant overhaul, and now it can help all evils and not just NKs. Thoughts?