Shapeshifter (Neutral Killing) (Update 18)

[Crazyzombie168]

I am thinking of lowing the pool of transformations Shapeshifter has. Or, I make it so 5 random transformations pop up for the first 2 nights. What do you guys think?

[sunbird1002]

Random transformations? Doesn't that go against the no random rule which BMG enforfed on all roles?

[randomguyhavingfun]

Random transformations? Doesn't that go against the no random rule which BMG enforfed on all roles?

Yes it does. But otherwise the dragon could be cheated through

[Crazyzombie168]

If BMG enfroces the rule I ain't doing it. The thing is, I want players to have to many choices at once, but not have the pool lowered, since I like it being 10. So the transformations list being randomly picked each night seems good. The transformation is not randomly picked, just the list you get. This would also allow the Shapeshifter to be different 90% of the time each game, which is something I kinda want.

[JudgeFiach]

Think about it.

Sorry, I can't think right now so I'm going piece by piece. It's like 1 AM here.

If the Shapeshifter is the only NK in the game and NK is CLEARLY pasted onto the role list, people are going to realize.

Just because they realize that there is a neutral killing does not mean that A. they will know it is a shapeshifter (could be an AFK SK, an Arsonist who's been either really lucky or really unlucky with their douses, or maybe even a WW trying to lay low for a while.) or B. that they will know who it is.

And what if a Witch, EXE or jester whip out? Surely there is an any but it could eventually be proven wrong, leaving the Shapeshifter to die.

Just because an EXE comes out of hiding doesn't mean that the shapeshifter is automatically revealed. Only in the "trying to play EXE" situation does that actually mean anything.

Just going to pause for a second here, I think you are fixated on the EXE tactic I threw out there. That was off the top of my head, and not at all my ultimate point I'm trying to make. The one most definite point I am trying to make is that your role has too many forms and not enough built-in unique weaknesses. Killing roles can be stopped by a witch, transporter, or night immunes. Investigatives can be thrown off by a framer or the holes built into their own investigations. Protectors have to pick the guy who's dying, etc.

Your role can't attack until the third day, sure, but I am afraid it won't be enough. There are plenty of killing roles each game that will keep the game going for them and by the time they appear they have a big shiny toolbox full of ways to make up for it, including but not limited to: Fire defeating the entire purpose of keeping a will that round, Shadow making the Lookout totally helpless to stop it, Half-Steel negating the Bodyguard, Owl being able to help silence anyone who comes close and doesn't put their neck out to the entire enemy faction the next day, and Cheetah, which mathematically reduces the Shapeshifter's downside to that of the minor side of the Vigilante's. From what I see, the most OP of the bunch is probably a Fire/Owl combination, which forces investigators to both reveal themselves and get an entire town to trust them by the end of the day, or risk death and half-cleaning. And then die by competent mafia.

Lets not forget Medium for the Demon situation.

This requires a game to have a medium. And for people to listen to the medium. And for that medium to not be an executioner or jester.

Alternatively, there could be a retributionist. Who would have to make a possibly not-so-great revive choice quickly to ensure that the shapeshifter doesn't kill them before they have the chance.

If none of this pans out, then the Demon situation adds about 1-3 days of search time for the next hanging.

Its really only these power transformations people really need to worry about being OP (dragon and demon).

Honestly, Dragon isn't even that OP. It's just.... weird. The thought that they just win if there are only 3 other people left besides them is a bit off.

All the OP stuff comes from the lack of identifiable weaknesses for the role or any of its forms. Most of them are direct counters to other roles.

And thing is, who knows how it would actually play in the game.

That's kind of what we're here for.

I didn't make this role to be in the game, no.

I don't know if that makes this a joke role or not...

Either way this might not be the subforum for you.

I make roles for fun and this role is probably my best since all of my others have failed.

I'm curious to know what constitutes as "failing" for a "for fun" role...

I want to get this role into the testing grounds

You sure they accept "for fun" roles?

Anyways, just wanted to say before I go on that I am not totally against this role. It is a fun idea and could probably be balanced incredibly easily, but as it stands I just feel it has too many forms and not enough weaknesses.

The whole idea of vet is to make evil roles more cautious about visiting at night. A cat/half-steel combination takes almost all the risk out of visiting.

but I want to wait for more supports before suggesting it.

You seem to be getting a decent amount of support already. Like I said this role has potential, it just needs worked out. I support the idea of this role, but in its current state I think it needs work.

You could try suggesting it at the next opportunity and seeing what they say, and I'd highly suggest taking whatever advice they have to heart.

Yes it is complex, it can catch new people off guard, but the devs (If it somehow gets programmed) can make a system in the role to hopefully let them understand what the role is.

System in the role?
I have no idea what you mean. Could you elaborate?

Also I doubt there is ever going to be a best combo for this role, since many people have different thing they would want.

Fire owl. Any escorts can be dealt with the night they let up, any sheriffs can be eliminated before they have the chance to actually announce (unless they throw their life away to reveal shapeshifter), and there will be no evidence they even visited you. Nobody who visits lives to tell the tale, and if they are any level of important then their whole round was for nothing if they hadn't revealed their information beforehand.


Hey, sorry if I sounded rude at any time during this. It's like 1 AM here so I might end up being a bit more blunt than I meant to be.

Again, people WILL pick up on that EXE tactic, some people lynch EXE claims because it could be killing trying to cover for the immunity. Demon basically loses a lot of kills for his power and the town will notice and see that and will probably want to get the Shapeshifter killed at night. And IDK, they could probably try and set up some code thing. Well how would you suggest I nerf it without nerfing any of the transformations? And by making an idea for fun. I make ideas for fun a lot, it is my hobby.

Sorry if I have somehow upset you.

The EXE tactic was a thing that I came up with off the top of my head, and has its flaws. I most certainly do not mean to use it as an example of a flawless method of victory. Also, I believe you misunderstand the concept of it. The idea is to get someone lynched, then gloat like an executioner would. To act like an executioner rather than to claim one.

Demon loses a lot of kills, yes, but the shapeshifter cannot be killed at night without a jailor or arsonist. And yes, a passcode could help if done properly.

I think this role could potentially be balanced. Or not. It could go either way, which is why I was trying to have a discussion about it. If these flaws aren't found out now, then they could seriously hinder the role's ability to pass muster down the line should it be actively tested. Still, it is your role. If you feel it is fine the way it is, then keep it the way it is.

Finally, I was just concerned as to what exactly a "for fun" role is, and whether it would be within the guidelines of this subforum. Thinking about it now I think it should probably be fine.

Well ok. Aren't all Neutral Killing roles basically made to be creative and fun? I mean their main goal is to kill all town, mafia and other killings and most have no impact on invest results. Also I think not killing till night 3 is a weakness, since you are a sitting duck. A Sheriff could come along and find you before you even had the chance to kill them. And since you can't kill the first 2 nights it gives town more time to gain info without worry. I honestly think this role is fine as is, I just feel I should do something about demon, owl and Fire Elemental. I have a change in mind for fire elemental, which is every second kill you burn the will.

Hey sorry, all my posts were being made at like 4:00 AM so I don't think my head was all here. It's midday and I have been up for a while so I am pretty sure I'm thinking clearly right now.


Yes, NKs are supposed to be creative and fun. Yours actually fits that description pretty well. And the not killing until night 3 is most definitely a weakness, and gives the town a distinct advantage going in.

What I was mostly worried about was the fact that there are 10 forms you can choose from. And, that a few of them are direct counters to very powerful town roles, which would be fine if they weren't capable of being mixed together in such extremely complimentary ways.

However, now that I have had time to think about it, the role can be taken out, and for the most part the combinations aren't too OP. Also, I guess for some odd reason I didn't entirely notice that you can only have 2 of the forms at once and can't change back and forth mid-game, which takes care of the OP part pretty easily. I am still a bit concerned about the sheer volume of roles, though. I just feel that it is too many. I would think that getting rid of maybe 2 or 3 would help that point, but it's your decision.

I'm still not sure that this role has the "feel" of a ToS role yet, but at least it sounds like something people would want to play and wouldn't be entirely devastating playing against. I apologize for not spending more time thinking about these things before posting before.

[Crazyzombie168]

Think about it.

Sorry, I can't think right now so I'm going piece by piece. It's like 1 AM here.

If the Shapeshifter is the only NK in the game and NK is CLEARLY pasted onto the role list, people are going to realize.

Just because they realize that there is a neutral killing does not mean that A. they will know it is a shapeshifter (could be an AFK SK, an Arsonist who's been either really lucky or really unlucky with their douses, or maybe even a WW trying to lay low for a while.) or B. that they will know who it is.

And what if a Witch, EXE or jester whip out? Surely there is an any but it could eventually be proven wrong, leaving the Shapeshifter to die.

Just because an EXE comes out of hiding doesn't mean that the shapeshifter is automatically revealed. Only in the "trying to play EXE" situation does that actually mean anything.

Just going to pause for a second here, I think you are fixated on the EXE tactic I threw out there. That was off the top of my head, and not at all my ultimate point I'm trying to make. The one most definite point I am trying to make is that your role has too many forms and not enough built-in unique weaknesses. Killing roles can be stopped by a witch, transporter, or night immunes. Investigatives can be thrown off by a framer or the holes built into their own investigations. Protectors have to pick the guy who's dying, etc.

Your role can't attack until the third day, sure, but I am afraid it won't be enough. There are plenty of killing roles each game that will keep the game going for them and by the time they appear they have a big shiny toolbox full of ways to make up for it, including but not limited to: Fire defeating the entire purpose of keeping a will that round, Shadow making the Lookout totally helpless to stop it, Half-Steel negating the Bodyguard, Owl being able to help silence anyone who comes close and doesn't put their neck out to the entire enemy faction the next day, and Cheetah, which mathematically reduces the Shapeshifter's downside to that of the minor side of the Vigilante's. From what I see, the most OP of the bunch is probably a Fire/Owl combination, which forces investigators to both reveal themselves and get an entire town to trust them by the end of the day, or risk death and half-cleaning. And then die by competent mafia.

Lets not forget Medium for the Demon situation.

This requires a game to have a medium. And for people to listen to the medium. And for that medium to not be an executioner or jester.

Alternatively, there could be a retributionist. Who would have to make a possibly not-so-great revive choice quickly to ensure that the shapeshifter doesn't kill them before they have the chance.

If none of this pans out, then the Demon situation adds about 1-3 days of search time for the next hanging.

Its really only these power transformations people really need to worry about being OP (dragon and demon).

Honestly, Dragon isn't even that OP. It's just.... weird. The thought that they just win if there are only 3 other people left besides them is a bit off.

All the OP stuff comes from the lack of identifiable weaknesses for the role or any of its forms. Most of them are direct counters to other roles.

And thing is, who knows how it would actually play in the game.

That's kind of what we're here for.

I didn't make this role to be in the game, no.

I don't know if that makes this a joke role or not...

Either way this might not be the subforum for you.

I make roles for fun and this role is probably my best since all of my others have failed.

I'm curious to know what constitutes as "failing" for a "for fun" role...

I want to get this role into the testing grounds

You sure they accept "for fun" roles?

Anyways, just wanted to say before I go on that I am not totally against this role. It is a fun idea and could probably be balanced incredibly easily, but as it stands I just feel it has too many forms and not enough weaknesses.

The whole idea of vet is to make evil roles more cautious about visiting at night. A cat/half-steel combination takes almost all the risk out of visiting.

but I want to wait for more supports before suggesting it.

You seem to be getting a decent amount of support already. Like I said this role has potential, it just needs worked out. I support the idea of this role, but in its current state I think it needs work.

You could try suggesting it at the next opportunity and seeing what they say, and I'd highly suggest taking whatever advice they have to heart.

Yes it is complex, it can catch new people off guard, but the devs (If it somehow gets programmed) can make a system in the role to hopefully let them understand what the role is.

System in the role?
I have no idea what you mean. Could you elaborate?

Also I doubt there is ever going to be a best combo for this role, since many people have different thing they would want.

Fire owl. Any escorts can be dealt with the night they let up, any sheriffs can be eliminated before they have the chance to actually announce (unless they throw their life away to reveal shapeshifter), and there will be no evidence they even visited you. Nobody who visits lives to tell the tale, and if they are any level of important then their whole round was for nothing if they hadn't revealed their information beforehand.


Hey, sorry if I sounded rude at any time during this. It's like 1 AM here so I might end up being a bit more blunt than I meant to be.

Again, people WILL pick up on that EXE tactic, some people lynch EXE claims because it could be killing trying to cover for the immunity. Demon basically loses a lot of kills for his power and the town will notice and see that and will probably want to get the Shapeshifter killed at night. And IDK, they could probably try and set up some code thing. Well how would you suggest I nerf it without nerfing any of the transformations? And by making an idea for fun. I make ideas for fun a lot, it is my hobby.

Sorry if I have somehow upset you.

The EXE tactic was a thing that I came up with off the top of my head, and has its flaws. I most certainly do not mean to use it as an example of a flawless method of victory. Also, I believe you misunderstand the concept of it. The idea is to get someone lynched, then gloat like an executioner would. To act like an executioner rather than to claim one.

Demon loses a lot of kills, yes, but the shapeshifter cannot be killed at night without a jailor or arsonist. And yes, a passcode could help if done properly.

I think this role could potentially be balanced. Or not. It could go either way, which is why I was trying to have a discussion about it. If these flaws aren't found out now, then they could seriously hinder the role's ability to pass muster down the line should it be actively tested. Still, it is your role. If you feel it is fine the way it is, then keep it the way it is.

Finally, I was just concerned as to what exactly a "for fun" role is, and whether it would be within the guidelines of this subforum. Thinking about it now I think it should probably be fine.

Well ok. Aren't all Neutral Killing roles basically made to be creative and fun? I mean their main goal is to kill all town, mafia and other killings and most have no impact on invest results. Also I think not killing till night 3 is a weakness, since you are a sitting duck. A Sheriff could come along and find you before you even had the chance to kill them. And since you can't kill the first 2 nights it gives town more time to gain info without worry. I honestly think this role is fine as is, I just feel I should do something about demon, owl and Fire Elemental. I have a change in mind for fire elemental, which is every second kill you burn the will.

Hey sorry, all my posts were being made at like 4:00 AM so I don't think my head was all here. It's midday and I have been up for a while so I am pretty sure I'm thinking clearly right now.


Yes, NKs are supposed to be creative and fun. Yours actually fits that description pretty well. And the not killing until night 3 is most definitely a weakness, and gives the town a distinct advantage going in.

What I was mostly worried about was the fact that there are 10 forms you can choose from. And, that a few of them are direct counters to very powerful town roles, which would be fine if they weren't capable of being mixed together in such extremely complimentary ways.

However, now that I have had time to think about it, the role can be taken out, and for the most part the combinations aren't too OP. Also, I guess for some odd reason I didn't entirely notice that you can only have 2 of the forms at once and can't change back and forth mid-game, which takes care of the OP part pretty easily. I am still a bit concerned about the sheer volume of roles, though. I just feel that it is too many. I would think that getting rid of maybe 2 or 3 would help that point, but it's your decision.

I'm still not sure that this role has the "feel" of a ToS role yet, but at least it sounds like something people would want to play and wouldn't be entirely devastating playing against. I apologize for not spending more time thinking about these things before posting before.

I am thinking of either lowing the pool of transformations or making a system where, the first 2 nights of every game, you can pick 3 out of the 10 transformations. This would make it so players don't have to many choices and would make it so it can be different every game. And by pick 3 out of the 10, I mean that night 1, you could choose between 3 different transformations. Same for night 2. Of course it would kinda break the RNG rule, but I don't see it as a problem. I am still debating on this though.

[JudgeFiach]

I honestly think that a better idea would be to split the roles into "night 1" roles and "night 2" roles, putting all the stronger roles into the first night and the lesser roles into night 2.

[randomguyhavingfun]

I honestly think that a better idea would be to split the roles into "night 1" roles and "night 2" roles, putting all the stronger roles into the first night and the lesser roles into night 2.

Yeah this could e a good idea but it is hard to tell apart the strong ones from the Lesser ones

[JudgeFiach]

I honestly think that a better idea would be to split the roles into "night 1" roles and "night 2" roles, putting all the stronger roles into the first night and the lesser roles into night 2.

Yeah this could e a good idea but it is hard to tell apart the strong ones from the Lesser ones

Fire, Owl, Lion, Dragon and Half-steel are probably stronger ones, being able to counter powerful roles. And Dragon.

Snake, Cat, Demon, Cheetah and Shadow are probably weaker ones, providing abilities that help in specific situations and not much else.

[I think Snake might be a bad idea actually... It takes the will but then publicly broadcasts it two days later, which kind of negates the point of getting rid of the will. Unless I misunderstand and you see the will at night, in which case it is actually an interesting way to get information out of confirmed investigatives.]

[Crazyzombie168]

I honestly think that a better idea would be to split the roles into "night 1" roles and "night 2" roles, putting all the stronger roles into the first night and the lesser roles into night 2.

Yeah this could e a good idea but it is hard to tell apart the strong ones from the Lesser ones

Fire, Owl, Lion, Dragon and Half-steel are probably stronger ones, being able to counter powerful roles. And Dragon.

Snake, Cat, Demon, Cheetah and Shadow are probably weaker ones, providing abilities that help in specific situations and not much else.

[I think Snake might be a bad idea actually... It takes the will but then publicly broadcasts it two days later, which kind of negates the point of getting rid of the will. Unless I misunderstand and you see the will at night, in which case it is actually an interesting way to get information out of confirmed investigatives.]

Yes, you can read the will when you steal it. Also, I like the idea of splitting transformations into nights. I will use this no questions asked, thanks.

[randomguyhavingfun]

So why is it rng now? Like seriously why are they randomly picked?

[JudgeFiach]

Rng probably isn't a good idea. Partly because testing grounds and BMG don't like it, but primarily because the game and its victory become entirely dependent upon the forms you are given at the start.

I could probably let it slide personally, as it looks like a decent way to keep the power of the role in check, but by and large it has been decided that random number roles are not good for ToS. If you feel like leaving it as-is, go ahead, but I am almost definitely certain that it will not be accepted anywhere if it has the random number stipulation.

[Crazyzombie168]

Rng probably isn't a good idea. Partly because testing grounds and BMG don't like it, but primarily because the game and its victory become entirely dependent upon the forms you are given at the start.

I could probably let it slide personally, as it looks like a decent way to keep the power of the role in check, but by and large it has been decided that random number roles are not good for ToS. If you feel like leaving it as-is, go ahead, but I am almost definitely certain that it will not be accepted anywhere if it has the random number stipulation.

No, its the RNG OR your idea. I decided to put both for more options.

[JudgeFiach]

Ah, Ok. Sorry about that.

[randomguyhavingfun]

It's ok everyone makes mistakes

[Galathrax]

Interesting role. I like it!

[randomguyhavingfun]

The invest result puts a lot more pressure on Sheriffs, maybe not the best idea

Sheriff needs pressure becasue he is a claim

[ChandlerofGEM]

Huh, interesting concept. You have my support.

[Crazyzombie168]

I submitted this role to the Mafia Testing Grounds! Wish it luck.