Polymath (Neutral Benign)

[BPsycho2]

I think the Mayor should be top priority.

I haven't any real reasoning besides the Mafia could make quick work of the Mayor before he reveals.

[Skulomania]

I think the Mayor should be top priority.

I haven't any real reasoning besides the Mafia could make quick work of the Mayor before he reveals.

Yeah, for even after the mayor nerf, there are still VFR games that occur and other ways the mayor can still impact the game when revealed, and not to mention, the mayor revealing essentially confirms a townie and potentially gets a bodyguard on it for a period of time which causes other problems as confirmed townies are always a problem. So while the mayor cannot whisper, it is still a threat to the other opposing alignments that in turn may want to neutralize before it 'activates', as in before the role reveals itself and becomes a problem.

[BPsycho2]

is VFR = Vote For Roles?

[Skulomania]

is VFR = Vote For Roles?

Yeah. Essentially any confirmed townie can do it though, which includes the mayor, but with the mayor being able to reveal so easily and having 3 votes and whatnot, it makes it more of a threat. But that is just one way the mayor is a threat, as revealing late can also prove fatal for scum roles.

So essentially, as you said, giving the scum a chance to get rid of the mayor before it reveals and becomes a problem is definitely a big asset.

[BPsycho2]

Revealing late has been the greatest and most honorable strategy the Mayor has had since day one.

Ah, the good old days.

Either way, that is kinda gg for any evils that happened to make it so far as to get the game to that point.

[ReEvolve]

This role would be amazing to have in the game, and would be very fun to play as. A short summary of each subcategory would be nice, as it is a lot of reading which could discourage some users, however you have clearly made a huge effort and I applaud you 100%. Has this been in the testing grounds yet? If not, push for it. This deserves to be in the game.

[Skulomania]

This role would be amazing to have in the game, and would be very fun to play as. A short summary of each subcategory would be nice, as it is a lot of reading which could discourage some users, however you have clearly made a huge effort and I applaud you 100%. Has this been in the testing grounds yet? If not, push for it. This deserves to be in the game.

I appreciate the positive feedback. And I will look into making the 'paragraphs' easier to read.

It has not been submitted to Testing Grounds yet, but rest assured that I will attempt it at a later date. Currently focusing on the Plastic Surgeon. I'm also waiting for the role to get a bit more votes before I act, although I will act regardless, however not at this present time.

[PoptartPresident]

This is by far, one of the greatest role ideas I've ever seen on the role ideas forum.
It's unique, it's very creative, and goes outside the box of Town of Salem. It's also a perfect balance for the neutral benign alignment as both town, neutrals, and mafia would want to spare you for the amount of information you can gain. I honestly don't see any flaws in this role because any flaw I could've thought of was abruptly taken by a "Ooooh right that's why that's there."


Only real issue I see with it is that it is sorta complicated. I had to re-read this for a bit until I finally shoved it into my head.
For a lot of new players, this role would be very confusing to know and play. But I imagine, like any role, people will get use to it after a certain amount of time.

Truly one of the best role suggestions I've seen in a long time.


/Support

[Skulomania]

This is by far, one of the greatest role ideas I've ever seen on the role ideas forum.
It's unique, it's very creative, and goes outside the box of Town of Salem. It's also a perfect balance for the neutral benign alignment as both town, neutrals, and mafia would want to spare you for the amount of information you can gain. I honestly don't see any flaws in this role because any flaw I could've thought of was abruptly taken by a "Ooooh right that's why that's there."


Only real issue I see with it is that it is sorta complicated. I had to re-read this for a bit until I finally shoved it into my head.
For a lot of new players, this role would be very confusing to know and play. But I imagine, like any role, people will get use to it after a certain amount of time.

Truly one of the best role suggestions I've seen in a long time.


/Support

Thank you for the positive feedback. Definitely means a lot.

Although I think it is more that the other alignments would want to kill you rather than spare you, although the alignments, particularly Mafia can attempt to exploit you which is what you might of meant, for example the mafia can wait for you to leak the town's identity, and then get rid of you before you leak the mafia's identity to a Neutral Killing or potentially Town if neutrals are all dead, or allow the Polymath to leak their identity to a potential witch if they know the witch has to be the neutral leader , or even stop you before you inform an amnesiac of mafia's identity and risk it becoming town to expose you or even an executioner pretending to be sheriff with the information , and etc so there is an abundance of strategies and impacts revolving around Mafia and Neutral. (Although the Polymath is a huge threat for both but they have some room for exploitation however it is a risk/reward situation). However the Neutral Killing is an odd exception that is relatively left alone, and benefits more-so, but it still may be uneasy about the Polymath knowing its potential identity, even if it won't be leaked.

Although for Town, there is very little room for exploitation due to the how I created the Polymath, making the Polymath mostly a Kill on Sight priority target for Town, especially early in the game (Before Polymath leaks the town's leader), however they do relatively benefit later in the game as they can potentially be informed of the identity of a jester,executioner,survivor,amnesiac,witch so that they can either lynch them or confirm them to help with role-claims later in the game or whatever they wish to do, and if all Neutrals die before the Polymath identifies the mafia's leader, the Town can gamble with the Polymath in hopes of being informed of a mafia identity leak which would be the most impactful for Town. However knowing what alignment the Polymath is currently identifying or where he is on the Alignment Order is filled with uncertainty, so attempting to gamble/exploit the Polymath is very risky, and can either help you or leave you dead.

[BPsycho2]

Yes, yes.

It's great. Only NB I'd have put in first is the Undertaker.

Should the Neutral Leader be the Witch? Hm..

[Skulomania]

Should the Neutral Leader be the Witch? Hm..

The Neutral Killing as #1 would be better suited as it benefits the Neutral Killings while also giving a lot of incentive for the mafia(also Town if the mafia are dead) to target the Polymath. However the Witch is the front-runner right after so it is definitely not left alone in anyway (if NK dies or not present and there is no vampire).

[BPsycho2]

I suppose, yes.

that works.

[Abelisk]

Really cool role. Personally, it confused me a little bit and it does introduce a whole lot of new mechanics to get used to, but it's worth it IMO.

Looking forward to it being released (if ever).

[Skulomania]

Really cool role. Personally, it confused me a little bit and it does introduce a whole lot of new mechanics to get used to, but it's worth it IMO.

Looking forward to it being released (if ever).

Thanks for the positive feedback and I am glad you are as eager as me to potentially have the Polymath in the game, and I can assure you that I will try to do my best to have the Polymath considered for implementation in the future.

[JudgeFiach]

A decent idea, could shake things up immensely.

My main concern is that the role is kind of difficult to understand. It is also slightly concerning that the role can so easily cripple the town early on, and I think that knowing 3 potential targets makes it a little too easy to find them.

Also, the grammar and wording of a few of the messages is slightly off. "Does not exceed expectations" means that they were what they were expecting to be or less than what they were expecting. Also, what exactly is an "unexamined life?" One that nobody is looking at? A player that doesn't get checked out by an investigator? However, this is just a nitpick.

Also, if the mayor reveals, the polymath ceases to be a threat to the town as his information will only be what the mafia already knows. And I don't believe that telling the SK who the godfather is is really going to help anyone, what with the night immunity and no voting power and whatnot.

Also, I don't get what the point is of not identifying a neutral killing to the town if he is able to automatically out both a jailor and a godfather. Doesn't seem to truly "impact the game equally without picking favorites." I can understand not outing himself, but not outing the arsonist or the serial killer seems a bit counterintuitive.

My final concern is that once the Polymath has won, they can very easily out most if not all of the mafia just to get the game over with so they can get their town points. Should they hit the framer and the godfather, for example, then they can simply announce 2 mafia members at the beginning of the day after they have identified the godfather, and under normal circumstances that would account for 2/3 of the mafia.

Overall, good idea, has the potential to really change the game, but might be a bit too easy for the role to instantly and automatically identify a jailor to the godfather within 2-3 nights and might need a bit of changing to avoid being overpowered.

[Skulomania]

A decent idea, could shake things up immensely.

My main concern is that the role is kind of difficult to understand. It is also slightly concerning that the role can so easily cripple the town early on, and I think that knowing 3 potential targets makes it a little too easy to find them.

Also, the grammar and wording of a few of the messages is slightly off. "Does not exceed expectations" means that they were what they were expecting to be or less than what they were expecting. Also, what exactly is an "unexamined life?" One that nobody is looking at? A player that doesn't get checked out by an investigator? However, this is just a nitpick.

Also, if the mayor reveals, the polymath ceases to be a threat to the town as his information will only be what the mafia already knows. And I don't believe that telling the SK who the godfather is is really going to help anyone, what with the night immunity and no voting power and whatnot.

Also, I don't get what the point is of not identifying a neutral killing to the town if he is able to automatically out both a jailor and a godfather. Doesn't seem to truly "impact the game equally without picking favorites." I can understand not outing himself, but not outing the arsonist or the serial killer seems a bit counterintuitive.

My final concern is that once the Polymath has won, they can very easily out most if not all of the mafia just to get the game over with so they can get their town points. Should they hit the framer and the godfather, for example, then they can simply announce 2 mafia members at the beginning of the day after they have identified the godfather, and under normal circumstances that would account for 2/3 of the mafia.

Overall, good idea, has the potential to really change the game, but might be a bit too easy for the role to instantly and automatically identify a jailor to the godfather within 2-3 nights and might need a bit of changing to avoid being overpowered.

Thank you for the feedback. I will do my best to answer all of your concerns. I will be responding in relative order to your paragraphs. This is going to be long.

I don't think it is too complicated, you just have to wrap your head around the basic functions of the role. And its ability to impact town first (not necessarily early depending on the skill of the Polymath and luck) is so that it gives Town a lot of incentive to find and get rid of the role especially early in the game. Keep in mind the biggest problem with Neutral Benigns is that they are heavily town-sided, and with town boasting a 77% win ratio, the Polymath I think remedies this quite well. Also it is not automatic, and town have time to stop the Polymath if they actually try so it is not like they are helpless. If they sit back and do nothing, well then yeah, they are bound to get their highest priority player leaked to the next alignment. And for the 3 targets, I mean, that would require testing to see its difficulty, however mathematically it limits the time-frame to a specific amount, which was done on purpose. Ensuring the factions are found and impacted in relative time-frames, however those vary depending on the skill of the Polymath.

"Does not exceed expectations" is referring to the priority. The polymath expects the person they target to exceed their expectations, and if they don't, well then they are not the highest priority leader. When the polymath does find the right target, it says that they 'exceed expectations'. I mean i can re-word it to say " the target does not meet expectations". The 'examined life' is a famous quote by Socrates, and you may search it up yourself as to learn more of the context. Essentially, it is the philosophy that the love of wisdom is most important pursuit above all else. It is similiar to the quote rationale of " I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees". But yeah, that is not really related to the game, however if you were to relate it, it would simply be the love of exploring the world and people around him.

If the mayor does reveal, the Polymath essentially gets a free target, which does seem quite redundant. However it does not stop being a threat to town. Keep in mind the Polymath can loop the alignment order, meaning the Polymath, if not dealt with, can come right back and identity the priority leader of town later in the game. Also it benefits town later in the game when it potentially reveals NE/NB/NC's to town. Although with that said, I am maybe thinking that if the Mayor reveals while the Polymath is trying to identify the town leader, the Polymath is forced to find the next leader and thus the Polymath is given 2 new clues, similiar to what happens when an alignment leader dies while the Polymath is identifying that alignment. Although keep in mind with the new update, the Mayor does not reveal alot early in the game, however the Polymath can psychologically impact the Mayor. Should the mayor stay hidden and hope to reveal later in the game, or reveal early in fear of the Polymath secretly leaking its identity to mafia and the Mayor potentially dying with no hope of any protection. And I don't see why the SK knowing of the Godfather/Mafios's identity is not helping anyone? It is supposed to help the Neutral Killing. Knowing of the identity of the Godfather/Mafioso can allow the Serial Killer to potentially claim a TI role(or whatever role to deceive town) and get the gf/mafioso lynched, avoid the role as to waste a night on an immune, or kill it at night, and etc. There is plenty of implications that can occur for an SK That finds the topdogs of the mafia. (Happens even now when NK's hit immunes)

The Polymath impacts the playing field equally and fairly. Key word is fairly. The Neutral Killings boast a nice 0-3% win percentage, and to have a Neutral Benign essentially give the Neutral Killing identity to a Town seems absurdly unfair. The NK would literally lose 100% of the time in end-game situations. And the Neutral Killing cannot automatically out both a jailer and godfather. The Neutral Killing only gets the identity of the mafia's leader, and only if the mafia are dead while the Polymath is identifying the town, would the leak skip the mafia and end up in the Neutral Killings hand. So yeah it doesn't work like that. Also keep in mind the roles are not leaked. So knowing what role is leaked to you is up to you to figure out as you must analyze the role-list and what roles are in the game, and knowing such information can get blurry later in the game. For example a Mafia may get a veteran's identity leaked and end up killing themselves thinking they were another role, and etc. So yeah, it is not counter-intuitive to the Polymath in anyway. It is how the role was built.

The implications at post-goal are valid concerns. The Polymath however has to loop the entire alignment and get town in order to get the mafia and essentially have the potential to leak all or most their identities. This is very hard to do, and a big part of the Polymath is that it is a threat to everyone. If the Polymath lives that long, well then...Mafia are too blame for their tragic demise as it was completely/partially avoidable. Also mathematically, unless your super good and lucky , the game would essentially either be over at that time or almost over. This is also because you would give the mafia a leader of town, and if you have already looped the order, this is potentially late-game, and you may of just helped Mafia win the game. The Polymath's threat grows and grows as the game goes on as identities become more dangerous as the player number decreases, which is why it should never be ignored. Ignore it and you will be constantly having your members leaked and thus could bury your chances of winning, and this includes town mafia and neutral. There is no excuse for not targeting the Polymath. The Polymath is just as much a threat as any other alignment.

I appreciate the feedback , and I mean the 'easiness' is up to debate and would be better analyzed under future testing. Also the Polymath may get the Jailor N2-N3, however it may also take up to N4-N5. I do not think such leak is overpowered, because then again, it does not automatically leak the role but only its priority, and having the Mafia get rid of the Jailor around N3-N5 is not game-breaking at all. The Jailor is an insanely OP role, and the mafia getting rid of it relatively early/mid-game will not in anyway break town. Will it negatively impact them ? Of course. That is the point. Town must shift their focus to the Polymath in the beginning of the game just as much as to the mafia and etc. That is the whole point. And again, Town boasting a 77% win ratio, they need more pressure, especially when the current Neutral Benign roles are suckers for town. Keep in mind the Polymath also gives the identity of Mafia right after, so it is a give and take, for all factions. Mafia benefit, but they also potentially hurt just as much, which means the Mafia also cannot ignore the Polymath even after they have been given an identity(even more-so after they have been given a leak as they know they are next), and this applies to all factions.

Thank you very much for the constructive feedback, and feel free to let me know if you have any more concerns, or if I have helped clear some up. I am glad we are getting more discussions going, as communication is key to ensure the role and all its features and aspects are better understood by everyone, including me, and that the role may be improved upon through further analysis.

[JudgeFiach]

A decent idea, could shake things up immensely.

My main concern is that the role is kind of difficult to understand. It is also slightly concerning that the role can so easily cripple the town early on, and I think that knowing 3 potential targets makes it a little too easy to find them.

Also, the grammar and wording of a few of the messages is slightly off. "Does not exceed expectations" means that they were what they were expecting to be or less than what they were expecting. Also, what exactly is an "unexamined life?" One that nobody is looking at? A player that doesn't get checked out by an investigator? However, this is just a nitpick.

Also, if the mayor reveals, the polymath ceases to be a threat to the town as his information will only be what the mafia already knows. And I don't believe that telling the SK who the godfather is is really going to help anyone, what with the night immunity and no voting power and whatnot.

Also, I don't get what the point is of not identifying a neutral killing to the town if he is able to automatically out both a jailor and a godfather. Doesn't seem to truly "impact the game equally without picking favorites." I can understand not outing himself, but not outing the arsonist or the serial killer seems a bit counterintuitive.

My final concern is that once the Polymath has won, they can very easily out most if not all of the mafia just to get the game over with so they can get their town points. Should they hit the framer and the godfather, for example, then they can simply announce 2 mafia members at the beginning of the day after they have identified the godfather, and under normal circumstances that would account for 2/3 of the mafia.

Overall, good idea, has the potential to really change the game, but might be a bit too easy for the role to instantly and automatically identify a jailor to the godfather within 2-3 nights and might need a bit of changing to avoid being overpowered.

Thank you for the feedback. I will do my best to answer all of your concerns. I will be responding in relative order to your paragraphs. This is going to be long.

I don't think it is too complicated, you just have to wrap your head around the basic functions of the role. And its ability to impact town first (not necessarily early depending on the skill of the Polymath and luck) is so that it gives Town a lot of incentive to find and get rid of the role especially early in the game. Keep in mind the biggest problem with Neutral Benigns is that they are heavily town-sided, and with town boasting a 77% win ratio, the Polymath I think remedies this quite well. Also it is not automatic, and town have time to stop the Polymath if they actually try so it is not like they are helpless. If they sit back and do nothing, well then yeah, they are bound to get their highest priority player leaked to the next alignment. And for the 3 targets, I mean, that would require testing to see its difficulty, however mathematically it limits the time-frame to a specific amount, which was done on purpose. Ensuring the factions are found and impacted in relative time-frames, however those vary depending on the skill of the Polymath.

"Does not exceed expectations" is referring to the priority. The polymath expects the person they target to exceed their expectations, and if they don't, well then they are not the highest priority leader. When the polymath does find the right target, it says that they 'exceed expectations'. I mean i can re-word it to say " the target does not meet expectations". The 'examined life' is a famous quote by Socrates, and you may search it up yourself as to learn more of the context. Essentially, it is the philosophy that the love of wisdom is most important pursuit above all else. It is similiar to the quote rationale of " I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees". But yeah, that is not really related to the game, however if you were to relate it, it would simply be the love of exploring the world and people around him.

If the mayor does reveal, the Polymath essentially gets a free target, which does seem quite redundant. However it does not stop being a threat to town. Keep in mind the Polymath can loop the alignment order, meaning the Polymath, if not dealt with, can come right back and identity the priority leader of town later in the game. Also it benefits town later in the game when it potentially reveals NE/NB/NC's to town. Although with that said, I am maybe thinking that if the Mayor reveals while the Polymath is trying to identify the town leader, the Polymath is forced to find the next leader and thus the Polymath is given 2 new clues, similiar to what happens when an alignment leader dies while the Polymath is identifying that alignment. Although keep in mind with the new update, the Mayor does not reveal alot early in the game, however the Polymath can psychologically impact the Mayor. Should the mayor stay hidden and hope to reveal later in the game, or reveal early in fear of the Polymath secretly leaking its identity to mafia and the Mayor potentially dying with no hope of any protection. And I don't see why the SK knowing of the Godfather/Mafios's identity is not helping anyone? It is supposed to help the Neutral Killing. Knowing of the identity of the Godfather/Mafioso can allow the Serial Killer to potentially claim a TI role(or whatever role to deceive town) and get the gf/mafioso lynched, avoid the role as to waste a night on an immune, or kill it at night, and etc. There is plenty of implications that can occur for an SK That finds the topdogs of the mafia. (Happens even now when NK's hit immunes)

The Polymath impacts the playing field equally and fairly. Key word is fairly. The Neutral Killings boast a nice 0-3% win percentage, and to have a Neutral Benign essentially give the Neutral Killing identity to a Town seems absurdly unfair. The NK would literally lose 100% of the time in end-game situations. And the Neutral Killing cannot automatically out both a jailer and godfather. The Neutral Killing only gets the identity of the mafia's leader, and only if the mafia are dead while the Polymath is identifying the town, would the leak skip the mafia and end up in the Neutral Killings hand. So yeah it doesn't work like that. Also keep in mind the roles are not leaked. So knowing what role is leaked to you is up to you to figure out as you must analyze the role-list and what roles are in the game, and knowing such information can get blurry later in the game. For example a Mafia may get a veteran's identity leaked and end up killing themselves thinking they were another role, and etc. So yeah, it is not counter-intuitive to the Polymath in anyway. It is how the role was built.

The implications at post-goal are valid concerns. The Polymath however has to loop the entire alignment and get town in order to get the mafia and essentially have the potential to leak all or most their identities. This is very hard to do, and a big part of the Polymath is that it is a threat to everyone. If the Polymath lives that long, well then...Mafia are too blame for their tragic demise as it was completely/partially avoidable. Also mathematically, unless your super good and lucky , the game would essentially either be over at that time or almost over. This is also because you would give the mafia a leader of town, and if you have already looped the order, this is potentially late-game, and you may of just helped Mafia win the game. The Polymath's threat grows and grows as the game goes on as identities become more dangerous as the player number decreases, which is why it should never be ignored. Ignore it and you will be constantly having your members leaked and thus could bury your chances of winning, and this includes town mafia and neutral. There is no excuse for not targeting the Polymath. The Polymath is just as much a threat as any other alignment.

I appreciate the feedback , and I mean the 'easiness' is up to debate and would be better analyzed under future testing. Also the Polymath may get the Jailor N2-N3, however it may also take up to N4-N5. I do not think such leak is overpowered, because then again, it does not automatically leak the role but only its priority, and having the Mafia get rid of the Jailor around N3-N5 is not game-breaking at all. The Jailor is an insanely OP role, and the mafia getting rid of it relatively early/mid-game will not in anyway break town. Will it negatively impact them ? Of course. That is the point. Town must shift their focus to the Polymath in the beginning of the game just as much as to the mafia and etc. That is the whole point. And again, Town boasting a 77% win ratio, they need more pressure, especially when the current Neutral Benign roles are suckers for town. Keep in mind the Polymath also gives the identity of Mafia right after, so it is a give and take, for all factions. Mafia benefit, but they also potentially hurt just as much, which means the Mafia also cannot ignore the Polymath even after they have been given an identity(even more-so after they have been given a leak as they know they are next), and this applies to all factions.

Thank you very much for the constructive feedback, and feel free to let me know if you have any more concerns, or if I have helped clear some up. I am glad we are getting more discussions going, as communication is key to ensure the role and all its features and aspects are better understood by everyone, including me, and that the role may be improved upon through further analysis.

I will attempt to remain brief.

The problem would be that almost the entire town is townies. If there isn't a mayor, but there is a jailor, then it can very easily result in the jailor being found out and revealed as early as night two if the polymath is lucky. Any competent mafia will have the jailor dead by night 3 in this scenario.

I still think the wording is a bit weird, but it's my personal opinion on semantics, so take it as you will.

I think that the polymath would probably have a little trouble looping the alignment order due to all the work required and how swiftly a town can empty out. Even if they do, it would be extremely late game and the mafia wouldn't have much use for the information due to most likely having some level of majority or having had the priority town almost wrapped up. However, it is very easy for a situation to arise where such information would be a game-changer late game, so maybe I'm just stupid or something.

My reasoning for why the SK's knowledge of the godfather is not of much use is that the godfather is night immune. The serial killer couldn't touch the godfather and he couldn't very well announce during the day because he'd reveal who he was. In the event that there is no godfather, however, the SK would benefit from the information, but not by much. The SK would want to be getting rid of large majorities that could find them out and vote them to death, and the mafia most likely would not have one of those until later in the game. Which is actually pretty conveniently when the SK would be receiving this information. This is, however, only if the serial killer has gone undetected up to this point, and would remain undetected from this point on.

As for the serial killer bit, I was talking about the Polymath being able to out a jailor and godfather. And, even if the SK never wins, it is still a little unfair that the Neutral Killing would be completely immune to the Polymath's effect. (Also, the counter-intuitive-ness I mentioned was the fact that the NK would also want them dead, a point which I now realize is moot.) Come to think of it though, the Polymath by this point would know who the SK is by virtue of having to have identified them correctly. And, as I mentioned, the Polymath has already won by this point. The only reason they would have to continue playing would be to expedite somebody's victory, and all they would have to do is announce who their research led them to that night and it would all have the same effect.

What I intended to say regarding the "leak the entire mafia" bit was that it is very rare that a Polymath would identify the godfather on their first guess. Most likely they would stumble upon a consort or the like first, thus knowing who one mafia member is. Then, they would have a choice between 3 random players, one of whom is a second mafia and their ticket to victory. Once they have that victory, they also have 2 mafia they could out to the town to have hung. In most game modes the town would only have one mafia left to deal with, and even if they decide to kill the polymath immediately after, the Polymath has won and has shaved a few minutes off his wait time, which will probably be spent in the graveyard (because, as you said, the Polymath is a huge threat to absolutely everyone.)

I LOVE this idea, and I am thankful that not only is my input valued by the actual creator, but also considered to be potentially helpful in the long run. I hope that this role is considered for the game.

[Skulomania]

I will attempt to remain brief.

The problem would be that almost the entire town is townies. If there isn't a mayor, but there is a jailor, then it can very easily result in the jailor being found out and revealed as early as night two if the polymath is lucky. Any competent mafia will have the jailor dead by night 3 in this scenario.

I still think the wording is a bit weird, but it's my personal opinion on semantics, so take it as you will.

I think that the polymath would probably have a little trouble looping the alignment order due to all the work required and how swiftly a town can empty out. Even if they do, it would be extremely late game and the mafia wouldn't have much use for the information due to most likely having some level of majority or having had the priority town almost wrapped up. However, it is very easy for a situation to arise where such information would be a game-changer late game, so maybe I'm just stupid or something.

My reasoning for why the SK's knowledge of the godfather is not of much use is that the godfather is night immune. The serial killer couldn't touch the godfather and he couldn't very well announce during the day because he'd reveal who he was. In the event that there is no godfather, however, the SK would benefit from the information, but not by much. The SK would want to be getting rid of large majorities that could find them out and vote them to death, and the mafia most likely would not have one of those until later in the game. Which is actually pretty conveniently when the SK would be receiving this information. This is, however, only if the serial killer has gone undetected up to this point, and would remain undetected from this point on.

As for the serial killer bit, I was talking about the Polymath being able to out a jailor and godfather. And, even if the SK never wins, it is still a little unfair that the Neutral Killing would be completely immune to the Polymath's effect. (Also, the counter-intuitive-ness I mentioned was the fact that the NK would also want them dead, a point which I now realize is moot.) Come to think of it though, the Polymath by this point would know who the SK is by virtue of having to have identified them correctly. And, as I mentioned, the Polymath has already won by this point. The only reason they would have to continue playing would be to expedite somebody's victory, and all they would have to do is announce who their research led them to that night and it would all have the same effect.

What I intended to say regarding the "leak the entire mafia" bit was that it is very rare that a Polymath would identify the godfather on their first guess. Most likely they would stumble upon a consort or the like first, thus knowing who one mafia member is. Then, they would have a choice between 3 random players, one of whom is a second mafia and their ticket to victory. Once they have that victory, they also have 2 mafia they could out to the town to have hung. In most game modes the town would only have one mafia left to deal with, and even if they decide to kill the polymath immediately after, the Polymath has won and has shaved a few minutes off his wait time, which will probably be spent in the graveyard (because, as you said, the Polymath is a huge threat to absolutely everyone.)

I LOVE this idea, and I am thankful that not only is my input valued by the actual creator, but also considered to be potentially helpful in the long run. I hope that this role is considered for the game.

Thank you for you added feedback. The comments are relative to your paragraphs, as previously. This will be of relative length again as I wish to properly discuss these valid concerns in as much detail as can be and as well as offer potential changes to help "remedy" these concerns. (However it should be the last lengthy post regarding these concerns)

The Jailor being potentially found around N3-N4 I think is perfectly fine imo, as again, it will not break town in anyway(An amnesiac becoming mafia probably has more impact as an example). It will just make it more difficult. And who knows, maybe the Jailor dies N1-N4 before you identify the town leader, so your forced to find the next leader, which is the veteran,(but if the veteran isn't in the game, it goes to the next and etc), so there still lies uncertainty as games never go perfectly. You may also be jailed one night or transported the next and thus messing you up, and heck you may even be executed or lynched because again, you're in no way left alone by town, as we have both stated before due to the consequences of the leak. Also, just a quick little fun reasoning to why the Veteran is also very high up is that it gives the Polymath incentive to do his/her work quick, and punishes the Polymath if the role does not find the Town leader in time(Jailor, Mayor). Also, with the adaptive nature of humans, what can potentially happen is if no amnesiac has turned, and no one has claimed survivor, the Jailor may take the chances of their being a polymath around N3-N5 and expose himself and ask for protection or even execute a potential Polymath(Maybe we can make the fake-claim less believable to put more pressure on the Polymath). So , there is definitely a lot of things each faction and individual roles can do to minimize the Polymath's threat. I'm sure there are more ways that you might have or I but I just cannot come up with at this time.

I will look into the wording more and see if I can change anything up, as I made it relatively on improvise while making the simulated game-play.

Looping the alignment order is definitely hard, however it is still possible and could potentially prove vital/dangerous for Town/Mafia and Neutral, as in the Polymath may leak the potential Veteran's identity(if still alive and hidden) and have the Mafia avoid the player instead of potentially hitting an unknown veteran and losing, or getting the Bodyguard instead of dying to the target of the bodyguard, etc. But yeah looping the alignment order again is tough and is not necessarily apart of the role, as most of the impact and aspects of the role comes in the 1st loop, but again, if you leave the Polymath alone and the Polymath is relatively good at scum-reading and town-reading, the role could definitely loop the alignment order twice and screw whichever faction two times over.

The Serial Killer getting the mafioso rather than the godfather is definitely more attractive, however gaining the godfather's identity is still useful, but it is for the Serial Killer to figure out how to approach such leverage given. If it is rather late-game in this scenario that you stated, then every kill counts. Hitting an immune and losing a night is quite devastating for a Neutral Killing, as every little mistake leads to your evident death. Limit as many mistakes as you can, and you have a higher chance of winning. The Serial Killer if unable to deceive town in its present form it can also use a deathnote, saying something like "14 is Godfather his identity was leaked to me by the Polymath or whatever", which may also screw up the Polymath's cover as usually people don't know of the Polymath except if the top leaders want to expose them(However that is a different topic). Essentially what this does is buys the Serial Killer time and distraction. If the SK can waste a day getting the Godfather lynched, he may very well of won the game in a late-game situation. And it can also potentially avoid the Polymath if it thinks it knows who the Polymath is and thus kill someone more town important rather than waste a night on a non-townie in such late game situations. So yeah, I mean, I am sure there are ways the Serial Killer can confront such situations and I think it is definitely helpful but it would require creativity.

While the Neutral Killings are left relatively alone from harm and more for benefit, they still may find the Polymath a relative danger in some situations, like you have brought up. The NK might feel wary of the Polymath potentially knowing its identity, and may want to get rid of it at night in case it ever exposes you for whatever reason, but yeah the NK was given sympathy in the creation of this role, as I tried to be as fair as possible. NK's are given the win in draws, for the same reasoning the Polymath doesn't expose them. And yeah , the Polymath could potentially just expose the Neutral Killing (however not 100%, for example there may be 2 NK's in the game and you are unaware of which one you got, or maybe one died and the other is hiding and the Polymath does not know that there is actually a NK in the game), but...To kind of remedy the potential for the Polymath to 'throw in the towel' after its goal is completed, I created progressive achievements. The progressive achievements were made as incentive for the Polymath to continue to try to examine top players in all alignments. I want to reward the Polymath for winning, and I do not want to just make it commit suicide or something dull like that. The Polymath, if played properly, would not expose anyone except to cover its own ass in terms of fake-claiming and getting someone lynched so it can continue to live and find more leaders. However the Polymath, if it cares none for achievements and challenge and game itself, could potentially out the 2 mafia after its goal is completed, and the NK if it wishes after finding it. This may seem kind of dull, and it is, but it is also avoidable. The potential for the Polymath to directly expose the mafia and also leaking their identity to the NK hold similiar consequences, ones that the Mafia should not let happen. The Mafia have to make a concerted effort to get the Polymath before such events can unfold, and while it can exploit the Polymath to get the town faction leader, it cannot risk its identities getting leaked. This also applies to the Neutral Killing, as when the NK gets the mafia's identities, it may very well potentially target the Polymath in fear it may be exposed directly. So in this regard, this is actually a good thing ,as the Neutral Killing can potentially be harmed, but has alot of time to potentially avoid it. Nothing the Polymath does is unstoppable. It is all relatively avoidable or remedied.

The mafia part I spoke about at the above paragraph, although keep in mind your concern is very valid, but it acts as just another reason to why the Mafia have to get rid of the role as i spoke in the above paragraph. One thing I also want to mention is that the Polymath exposing the 2 mafia in that scenario and getting lynched and then waiting until the game ends is 1)quite sad and I have tried to make sure people who play Polymath approach the game differently and have also added potential changes/additions that may semi-remedy this potential situation but 2) Can also be a Jester or Executioner strategy, or even a random scum claim for Mafia/NK strategy at the end of a game to get a townie or whoever lynched. So again, such an event can still be quite heavily manipulated. Maybe you don't trust the Polymath claim, as the role cannot really prove itself. But yeah the concern is valid in its essence, but again, it isn't as cut and dry as one may think, as it can be manipulated by other roles and it acts as another reason to why the Polymath should get killed before it has the ability to act out such situations.(This happens later in the game, so there is plenty of time)

Overall though regarding post-goal concerns,If you have any suggestions that may promote the Polymath to continue examining accordingly post-goal and to avoid what I again call a form of 'gamethrowing' on the part of the Polymath(However as stated before it is a situation that can be avoided by other factions(mafia in particular) and adds more of a reason to kill the Polymath), then feel free to suggest it and I will definitely consider.(I will attempt to come up with further solutions) Currently, the achievement system of the Polymath works to ensure the Polymath's best interests lie in continuing to examine players, and no benefit would come from exposing and getting yourself killed for the simple sake that you're bored and want the game to end. And also to note, the goal was to initially to find the leaders of all 3 factions but it was deemed to difficult, so it was decreased to at-least 2, but you can examine the 3rd faction and loop if you wish. However in the future, if the role through testing is deemed too easy and or post-goal issues arise, the goal may be reverted back to finding all 3, as that would keep the Polymath busy for most of the game, however it may be too challenging, although that is a topic for the future when the Polymath is hopefully tested.

(This paragraph will contain possible changes/additions to the Polymath in light of these concerns)
Also as we spoke before, I can definitely consider making the Polymath forced to find the next top leader after/if the Mayor reveals if the Polymath has not yet found the town leader, making it take longer for the Polymath to find the town's leader and essentially help make it more challenging. So essentially a mayor can choose to reveal early which will not only ensure its protection but also can screw over the Polymath as it now will take longer to find the next town leader, giving town some extra time to stop the Polymath. What we can also do is maybe even make the Retributionist go above the Jailor, but if the Retributionist revives, the Polymath is forced to find the next town leader(which now would be the jailor if ret is in the game and has just revived), which again, would add more challenge and would take more time for the Polymath to find the leader and in this case, the Jailor. Also the ret being above the Jailor will not really take anything away from the Polymath impact wise as the retributionist can be argued as the best role in the game and giving mafia the ret before it revives can prove game-changing, however giving the retributionist after it has revived seems redundant which is why the Polymath will have to find the next top leader if the ret revives before the Polymath identifies the town leader. So it is win-win , impact plus more skill/challenge for the fact that the ret may revive before you find him. Heck maybe I can even make it have 4 players as a clue if it is deemed to easy, as this would take longer for the Polymath to find the leader and thus make it add more skill and would also keep the Polymath more busy and avoid the potential for the 'throwing' situations, or in other words, give other factions as much room as we can to give them a fair chance to prevent such situations from occurring, because if we give enough of a fair chance, then the faction being exposed is just as much in the fault for the consequences and cannot cry out that they did not have any chance to stop it or whatever if you get what I mean. So yeah, there is definitely a lot of options we have to help remedy these concerns, and I would love your feedback on them and what other changes we may have as options that do not necessarily remove such concerns, but minimize them and add more skill/challenge to the role (that do not change the role too much). I also would like to thank you for helping me come up with these potential solutions that may definitely well help 'remedy' these concerns and make the role better overall.

And I am glad you enjoy this role and are actively providing constructive feedback to ensure aspects of the Polymath are discussed to ensure it is the best it can be, as this role is very much just as much mine as it is everyone who actively is involved in it providing feedback/improvements etc. No concern is ever invalid and I always heavily consider everything given by people, and respond accordingly to comments. If you provide detailed feedback, I will do the same.

Thanks again and let me know if I have cleared up some of the concerns that have been further discussed, and if you have anymore you wish to discuss or have clarified, and feel free to let me know what you think of the suggestions I have given ,and even add your own suggestion feedback if you have any.

[JudgeFiach]

Spoiler: I will attempt to remain brief.

The problem would be that almost the entire town is townies. If there isn't a mayor, but there is a jailor, then it can very easily result in the jailor being found out and revealed as early as night two if the polymath is lucky. Any competent mafia will have the jailor dead by night 3 in this scenario.

I still think the wording is a bit weird, but it's my personal opinion on semantics, so take it as you will.

I think that the polymath would probably have a little trouble looping the alignment order due to all the work required and how swiftly a town can empty out. Even if they do, it would be extremely late game and the mafia wouldn't have much use for the information due to most likely having some level of majority or having had the priority town almost wrapped up. However, it is very easy for a situation to arise where such information would be a game-changer late game, so maybe I'm just stupid or something.

My reasoning for why the SK's knowledge of the godfather is not of much use is that the godfather is night immune. The serial killer couldn't touch the godfather and he couldn't very well announce during the day because he'd reveal who he was. In the event that there is no godfather, however, the SK would benefit from the information, but not by much. The SK would want to be getting rid of large majorities that could find them out and vote them to death, and the mafia most likely would not have one of those until later in the game. Which is actually pretty conveniently when the SK would be receiving this information. This is, however, only if the serial killer has gone undetected up to this point, and would remain undetected from this point on.

As for the serial killer bit, I was talking about the Polymath being able to out a jailor and godfather. And, even if the SK never wins, it is still a little unfair that the Neutral Killing would be completely immune to the Polymath's effect. (Also, the counter-intuitive-ness I mentioned was the fact that the NK would also want them dead, a point which I now realize is moot.) Come to think of it though, the Polymath by this point would know who the SK is by virtue of having to have identified them correctly. And, as I mentioned, the Polymath has already won by this point. The only reason they would have to continue playing would be to expedite somebody's victory, and all they would have to do is announce who their research led them to that night and it would all have the same effect.

What I intended to say regarding the "leak the entire mafia" bit was that it is very rare that a Polymath would identify the godfather on their first guess. Most likely they would stumble upon a consort or the like first, thus knowing who one mafia member is. Then, they would have a choice between 3 random players, one of whom is a second mafia and their ticket to victory. Once they have that victory, they also have 2 mafia they could out to the town to have hung. In most game modes the town would only have one mafia left to deal with, and even if they decide to kill the polymath immediately after, the Polymath has won and has shaved a few minutes off his wait time, which will probably be spent in the graveyard (because, as you said, the Polymath is a huge threat to absolutely everyone.)

I LOVE this idea, and I am thankful that not only is my input valued by the actual creator, but also considered to be potentially helpful in the long run. I hope that this role is considered for the game.

Spoiler: Thank you for you added feedback. The comments are relative to your paragraphs, as previously. This will be of relative length again as I wish to properly discuss these valid concerns in as much detail as can be and as well as offer potential changes to help "remedy" these concerns. (However it should be the last lengthy post regarding these concerns)

The Jailor being potentially found around N3-N4 I think is perfectly fine imo, as again, it will not break town in anyway(An amnesiac becoming mafia probably has more impact as an example). It will just make it more difficult. And who knows, maybe the Jailor dies N1-N4 before you identify the town leader, so your forced to find the next leader, which is the veteran,(but if the veteran isn't in the game, it goes to the next and etc), so there still lies uncertainty as games never go perfectly. You may also be jailed one night or transported the next and thus messing you up, and heck you may even be executed or lynched because again, you're in no way left alone by town, as we have both stated before due to the consequences of the leak. Also, just a quick little fun reasoning to why the Veteran is also very high up is that it gives the Polymath incentive to do his/her work quick, and punishes the Polymath if the role does not find the Town leader in time(Jailor, Mayor). Also, with the adaptive nature of humans, what can potentially happen is if no amnesiac has turned, and no one has claimed survivor, the Jailor may take the chances of their being a polymath around N3-N5 and expose himself and ask for protection or even execute a potential Polymath(Maybe we can make the fake-claim less believable to put more pressure on the Polymath). So , there is definitely a lot of things each faction and individual roles can do to minimize the Polymath's threat. I'm sure there are more ways that you might have or I but I just cannot come up with at this time.

I will look into the wording more and see if I can change anything up, as I made it relatively on improvise while making the simulated game-play.

Looping the alignment order is definitely hard, however it is still possible and could potentially prove vital/dangerous for Town/Mafia and Neutral, as in the Polymath may leak the potential Veteran's identity(if still alive and hidden) and have the Mafia avoid the player instead of potentially hitting an unknown veteran and losing, or getting the Bodyguard instead of dying to the target of the bodyguard, etc. But yeah looping the alignment order again is tough and is not necessarily apart of the role, as most of the impact and aspects of the role comes in the 1st loop, but again, if you leave the Polymath alone and the Polymath is relatively good at scum-reading and town-reading, the role could definitely loop the alignment order twice and screw whichever faction two times over.

The Serial Killer getting the mafioso rather than the godfather is definitely more attractive, however gaining the godfather's identity is still useful, but it is for the Serial Killer to figure out how to approach such leverage given. If it is rather late-game in this scenario that you stated, then every kill counts. Hitting an immune and losing a night is quite devastating for a Neutral Killing, as every little mistake leads to your evident death. Limit as many mistakes as you can, and you have a higher chance of winning. The Serial Killer if unable to deceive town in its present form it can also use a deathnote, saying something like "14 is Godfather his identity was leaked to me by the Polymath or whatever", which may also screw up the Polymath's cover as usually people don't know of the Polymath except if the top leaders want to expose them(However that is a different topic). Essentially what this does is buys the Serial Killer time and distraction. If the SK can waste a day getting the Godfather lynched, he may very well of won the game in a late-game situation. And it can also potentially avoid the Polymath if it thinks it knows who the Polymath is and thus kill someone more town important rather than waste a night on a non-townie in such late game situations. So yeah, I mean, I am sure there are ways the Serial Killer can confront such situations and I think it is definitely helpful but it would require creativity.

While the Neutral Killings are left relatively alone from harm and more for benefit, they still may find the Polymath a relative danger in some situations, like you have brought up. The NK might feel wary of the Polymath potentially knowing its identity, and may want to get rid of it at night in case it ever exposes you for whatever reason, but yeah the NK was given sympathy in the creation of this role, as I tried to be as fair as possible. NK's are given the win in draws, for the same reasoning the Polymath doesn't expose them. And yeah , the Polymath could potentially just expose the Neutral Killing (however not 100%, for example there may be 2 NK's in the game and you are unaware of which one you got, or maybe one died and the other is hiding and the Polymath does not know that there is actually a NK in the game), but...To kind of remedy the potential for the Polymath to 'throw in the towel' after its goal is completed, I created progressive achievements. The progressive achievements were made as incentive for the Polymath to continue to try to examine top players in all alignments. I want to reward the Polymath for winning, and I do not want to just make it commit suicide or something dull like that. The Polymath, if played properly, would not expose anyone except to cover its own ass in terms of fake-claiming and getting someone lynched so it can continue to live and find more leaders. However the Polymath, if it cares none for achievements and challenge and game itself, could potentially out the 2 mafia after its goal is completed, and the NK if it wishes after finding it. This may seem kind of dull, and it is, but it is also avoidable. The potential for the Polymath to directly expose the mafia and also leaking their identity to the NK hold similiar consequences, ones that the Mafia should not let happen. The Mafia have to make a concerted effort to get the Polymath before such events can unfold, and while it can exploit the Polymath to get the town faction leader, it cannot risk its identities getting leaked. This also applies to the Neutral Killing, as when the NK gets the mafia's identities, it may very well potentially target the Polymath in fear it may be exposed directly. So in this regard, this is actually a good thing ,as the Neutral Killing can potentially be harmed, but has alot of time to potentially avoid it. Nothing the Polymath does is unstoppable. It is all relatively avoidable or remedied.

The mafia part I spoke about at the above paragraph, although keep in mind your concern is very valid, but it acts as just another reason to why the Mafia have to get rid of the role as i spoke in the above paragraph. One thing I also want to mention is that the Polymath exposing the 2 mafia in that scenario and getting lynched and then waiting until the game ends is 1)quite sad and I have tried to make sure people who play Polymath approach the game differently and have also added potential changes/additions that may semi-remedy this potential situation but 2) Can also be a Jester or Executioner strategy, or even a random scum claim for Mafia/NK strategy at the end of a game to get a townie or whoever lynched. So again, such an event can still be quite heavily manipulated. Maybe you don't trust the Polymath claim, as the role cannot really prove itself. But yeah the concern is valid in its essence, but again, it isn't as cut and dry as one may think, as it can be manipulated by other roles and it acts as another reason to why the Polymath should get killed before it has the ability to act out such situations.(This happens later in the game, so there is plenty of time)

Overall though regarding post-goal concerns,If you have any suggestions that may promote the Polymath to continue examining accordingly post-goal and to avoid what I again call a form of 'gamethrowing' on the part of the Polymath(However as stated before it is a situation that can be avoided by other factions(mafia in particular) and adds more of a reason to kill the Polymath), then feel free to suggest it and I will definitely consider.(I will attempt to come up with further solutions) Currently, the achievement system of the Polymath works to ensure the Polymath's best interests lie in continuing to examine players, and no benefit would come from exposing and getting yourself killed for the simple sake that you're bored and want the game to end. And also to note, the goal was to initially to find the leaders of all 3 factions but it was deemed to difficult, so it was decreased to at-least 2, but you can examine the 3rd faction and loop if you wish. However in the future, if the role through testing is deemed too easy and or post-goal issues arise, the goal may be reverted back to finding all 3, as that would keep the Polymath busy for most of the game, however it may be too challenging, although that is a topic for the future when the Polymath is hopefully tested.

(This paragraph will contain possible changes/additions to the Polymath in light of these concerns)
Also as we spoke before, I can definitely consider making the Polymath forced to find the next top leader after/if the Mayor reveals if the Polymath has not yet found the town leader, making it take longer for the Polymath to find the town's leader and essentially help make it more challenging. So essentially a mayor can choose to reveal early which will not only ensure its protection but also can screw over the Polymath as it now will take longer to find the next town leader, giving town some extra time to stop the Polymath. What we can also do is maybe even make the Retributionist go above the Jailor, but if the Retributionist revives, the Polymath is forced to find the next town leader(which now would be the jailor if ret is in the game and has just revived), which again, would add more challenge and would take more time for the Polymath to find the leader and in this case, the Jailor. Also the ret being above the Jailor will not really take anything away from the Polymath impact wise as the retributionist can be argued as the best role in the game and giving mafia the ret before it revives can prove game-changing, however giving the retributionist after it has revived seems redundant which is why the Polymath will have to find the next top leader if the ret revives before the Polymath identifies the town leader. So it is win-win , impact plus more skill/challenge for the fact that the ret may revive before you find him. Heck maybe I can even make it have 4 players as a clue if it is deemed to easy, as this would take longer for the Polymath to find the leader and thus make it add more skill and would also keep the Polymath more busy and avoid the potential for the 'throwing' situations, or in other words, give other factions as much room as we can to give them a fair chance to prevent such situations from occurring, because if we give enough of a fair chance, then the faction being exposed is just as much in the fault for the consequences and cannot cry out that they did not have any chance to stop it or whatever if you get what I mean. So yeah, there is definitely a lot of options we have to help remedy these concerns, and I would love your feedback on them and what other changes we may have as options that do not necessarily remove such concerns, but minimize them and add more skill/challenge to the role (that do not change the role too much). I also would like to thank you for helping me come up with these potential solutions that may definitely well help 'remedy' these concerns and make the role better overall.

And I am glad you enjoy this role and are actively providing constructive feedback to ensure aspects of the Polymath are discussed to ensure it is the best it can be, as this role is very much just as much mine as it is everyone who actively is involved in it providing feedback/improvements etc. No concern is ever invalid and I always heavily consider everything given by people, and respond accordingly to comments. If you provide detailed feedback, I will do the same.

Thanks again and let me know if I have cleared up some of the concerns that have been further discussed, and if you have anymore you wish to discuss or have clarified, and feel free to let me know what you think of the suggestions I have given ,and even add your own suggestion feedback if you have any.

I'll try to be brief, sorry for all my lengthy posts.

I think, now that I'm looking over everything, that while some players would most definitely be inclined to just reveal the mafia they had found the day after, it might actually be in their best interest to also find any NKs running around, and perhaps looping over as well. If the Polymath dies before they can locate, say, a Serial Killer, then the game might go on for a great while longer, as now both major factions have been seriously harmed depending on the circumstances and the SK has 2 free nights to murder townies to screw over the voting process. Also, the knowledge gained during the research could potentially be of use in determining who to vote for late-game, depending on how many confirmed town, mafia, and neutrals they find.

Your ideas to extend the time it takes to identify the teams are interesting, particularly the "4 players to guess" and "no revealed mayors" ideas. I feel this role seems to be more about reading people than random pass/fail tests, and adding another button to press might help immensely in trying to get players to actually think rather than just pushing something every night. I still feel like the Polymath should only need 2 leaders to Identify, though, and the priority order is probably fine as is.

I think that the role definitely has the potential for cheap tactics, but as long as there's enough incentive to play post-goal and the event of the Polymath actually finding the GF is reasonably postponed, then experienced players will probably keep it up. Revealing a neutral role (if there are no killers) to the town late-game might help guide their votes, knowing the identity of the SK might give the SK incentive to avoid killing a suspected polymath at night in case the Polymath keeps information in their will, etc. Perhaps adding some inherent penalty to outing yourself the moment after you learn everything would be the way to go? (Though probably not "don't die after you learn GF", seeing as that late in the game killers could easily just throw a rock and hit the polymath, which wouldn't exactly be fair)


Also, one more question (apologies):
If the top-priority town is bitten by a vampire the night after you get the list of 3 names, what would happen?

[Skulomania]

I'll try to be brief, sorry for all my lengthy posts.

I think, now that I'm looking over everything, that while some players would most definitely be inclined to just reveal the mafia they had found the day after, it might actually be in their best interest to also find any NKs running around, and perhaps looping over as well. If the Polymath dies before they can locate, say, a Serial Killer, then the game might go on for a great while longer, as now both major factions have been seriously harmed depending on the circumstances and the SK has 2 free nights to murder townies to screw over the voting process. Also, the knowledge gained during the research could potentially be of use in determining who to vote for late-game, depending on how many confirmed town, mafia, and neutrals they find.

Your ideas to extend the time it takes to identify the teams are interesting, particularly the "4 players to guess" and "no revealed mayors" ideas. I feel this role seems to be more about reading people than random pass/fail tests, and adding another button to press might help immensely in trying to get players to actually think rather than just pushing something every night. I still feel like the Polymath should only need 2 leaders to Identify, though, and the priority order is probably fine as is.

I think that the role definitely has the potential for cheap tactics, but as long as there's enough incentive to play post-goal and the event of the Polymath actually finding the GF is reasonably postponed, then experienced players will probably keep it up. Revealing a neutral role (if there are no killers) to the town late-game might help guide their votes, knowing the identity of the SK might give the SK incentive to avoid killing a suspected polymath at night in case the Polymath keeps information in their will, etc. Perhaps adding some inherent penalty to outing yourself the moment after you learn everything would be the way to go? (Though probably not "don't die after you learn GF", seeing as that late in the game killers could easily just throw a rock and hit the polymath, which wouldn't exactly be fair)


Also, one more question (apologies):
If the top-priority town is bitten by a vampire the night after you get the list of 3 names, what would happen?

No problem on the lengths of the post I think our responses will now be getting shorter . Also if you are unaware of how to only quote my previous comment, you can simply delete everything coming up to my previous comment, and remove all the quotation names at the top except for the 1st one which will be the most recent.(Like i am doing now)

And yeah you bring up a good point too, as if the Polymath attempts to speed up the game, he/she would actually be better off simply finding the other alignments, as the more alignment leaders you find and leak, the faster the games goes. And yeah, actually exposing the 2 mafia relatively mid-early game would actually benefit the Neutral Killing a lot,as it buys a few days of distraction.

Yeah the Polymath is definitely about testing your scum/town -reading and analysis skills, knowing how to differentiate town from mafia, mafia from town, neutral from etc and being able to differentiate roles themselves, etc. I do not want the role being about luck and button-mashing. I also want to ensure the role is challenging enough where it requires skill to complete, but that it does not become too hard. I am most definitely considering adding 4 players instead of 3. If you have 3, and you randomly pick one , you essentially have a 50/50 the next night, which is relatively luck based. If you have 4 targets, you very well need to pick them right,because if you take the entire 4 targets to get the person, you may have essentially lowered your chances of completing your goal to 0 while if you take all 3 targets for both town and mafia you may still win the game which seems really unfair challenge wise. The whole idea is to limit your choices, but limit them in a way that still requires skill to execute. If you take the entire 4 targets to get both town and mafia, you most likely have lost. Also keep in mind it may take a few days to get the target alignment, as getting a mafia is particularly harder as it is similiar to finding a mafia as sheriff.

So yeah, I am heavily considering changing it from 3 to 4 targets, and it would also make a little more sense in terms of the clue being cut down to 2 when the faction leader dies, as in it is simply cutting the clue names in half. And I will also most likely add the mayor reveal addition. I think with these potential additions, the Jailor should stay in its relative spot as there is already further challenge being added, and thus the concern about the Jailor diminishes.

Yeah I definitely think keeping the Polymath as busy as possible throughout the game and giving enough incentive post-goal is important to avoid any 'throwing' behavior from the Polymath, however as stated before, such situations are used also as reasons to kill the Polymath and can also be heavily manipulated by other roles making such situations lose its credibility. I think adding more challenge to the role would be a start, such as making the clues 4 players and adding the mayor addition, and for incentive I'm thinking more reward than possible punishment. The achievements currently act as a way to promote the Polymath playing post-goal and continuing to identify faction leaders, however there can definitely be more incentive added. But also as stated before, identifying leaders can potentially make the game go faster, so that's an incentive in itself that kind of attempts to discourage the reasoning for the exposing route. However the Polymath may very well expose a target if need to be to fake-claim and whatnot to ensure its own survival in order to continue examining the factions, but what we are talking about is that end-goal 'throwing' scenario where the Polymath just accepts death and wants the game to end.

And the vampire question is a good question (Feel free to ask as many questions as you like don't be sorry!)....Hmm. On one hand, if it does get a new set of clues, and the role is not dead, the Polymath may very well of just confirmed that the person was bitten and may of confirmed vampires in the game which may be kind of unfair(or would it be fair?). And on the other hand, it seems a bit odd to still continue to find the person after being bitten because they are no longer town, and the mafia if they get the leak, would be getting a vampire identity so that doesn't make much sense. Hm... I will give this some thought, thank you for bringing it up. Feel free to come up with possible suggestions to what happens if a vampire bites the leader of the faction your identifying while you have the original clues.

[JudgeFiach]

No problem on the lengths of the post I think our responses will now be getting shorter . Also if you are unaware of how to only quote my previous comment, you can simply delete everything coming up to my previous comment, and remove all the quotation names at the top except for the 1st one which will be the most recent.(Like i am doing now)

And yeah you bring up a good point too, as if the Polymath attempts to speed up the game, he/she would actually be better off simply finding the other alignments, as the more alignment leaders you find and leak, the faster the games goes. And yeah, actually exposing the 2 mafia relatively mid-early game would actually benefit the Neutral Killing a lot,as it buys a few days of distraction.

Yeah the Polymath is definitely about testing your scum/town -reading and analysis skills, knowing how to differentiate town from mafia, mafia from town, neutral from etc and being able to differentiate roles themselves, etc. I do not want the role being about luck and button-mashing. I also want to ensure the role is challenging enough where it requires skill to complete, but that it does not become too hard. I am most definitely considering adding 4 players instead of 3. If you have 3, and you randomly pick one , you essentially have a 50/50 the next night, which is relatively luck based. If you have 4 targets, you very well need to pick them right,because if you take the entire 4 targets to get the person, you may have essentially lowered your chances of completing your goal to 0 while if you take all 3 targets for both town and mafia you may still win the game which seems really unfair challenge wise. The whole idea is to limit your choices, but limit them in a way that still requires skill to execute. If you take the entire 4 targets to get both town and mafia, you most likely have lost. Also keep in mind it may take a few days to get the target alignment, as getting a mafia is particularly harder as it is similiar to finding a mafia as sheriff.

So yeah, I am heavily considering changing it from 3 to 4 targets, and it would also make a little more sense in terms of the clue being cut down to 2 when the faction leader dies, as in it is simply cutting the clue names in half. And I will also most likely add the mayor reveal addition. I think with these potential additions, the Jailor should stay in its relative spot as there is already further challenge being added, and thus the concern about the Jailor diminishes.

Yeah I definitely think keeping the Polymath as busy as possible throughout the game and giving enough incentive post-goal is important to avoid any 'throwing' behavior from the Polymath, however as stated before, such situations are used also as reasons to kill the Polymath and can also be heavily manipulated by other roles making such situations lose its credibility. I think adding more challenge to the role would be a start, such as making the clues 4 players and adding the mayor addition, and for incentive I'm thinking more reward than possible punishment. The achievements currently act as a way to promote the Polymath playing post-goal and continuing to identify faction leaders, however there can definitely be more incentive added. But also as stated before, identifying leaders can potentially make the game go faster, so that's an incentive in itself that kind of attempts to discourage the reasoning for the exposing route. However the Polymath may very well expose a target if need to be to fake-claim and whatnot to ensure its own survival in order to continue examining the factions, but what we are talking about is that end-goal 'throwing' scenario where the Polymath just accepts death and wants the game to end.

And the vampire question is a good question (Feel free to ask as many questions as you like don't be sorry!)....Hmm. On one hand, if it does get a new set of clues, and the role is not dead, the Polymath may very well of just confirmed that the person was bitten and may of confirmed vampires in the game which may be kind of unfair(or would it be fair?). And on the other hand, it seems a bit odd to still continue to find the person after being bitten because they are no longer town, and the mafia if they get the leak, would be getting a vampire identity so that doesn't make much sense. Hm... I will give this some thought, thank you for bringing it up. Feel free to come up with possible suggestions to what happens if a vampire bites the leader of the faction your identifying while you have the original clues.

Achievements are good incentives, but they lose their effect after the first time you receive them. And, while it would be smart for the polymath to keep searching after victory, I'm afraid that new Polymaths might not know this and will make some severe mistakes on their first few games. Not much we can do about that, though. In all games, even if there is a clear use for a new toy provided to the player, they will always use it improperly the first few times they get a hold of it. It might be best to put that aspect to the side for now.

Also, in terms of making the game go faster, after he wins the Polymath might have a bit of incentive to keep the located targets in his will, which would do the same as the "reveal after the gf is found" thing except with more information having been found and one less hanging the town needs to do the following day. Which gives everyone a reason to track him down late game: Town so they can find threats to hang, Mafia so as to locate someone they should keep off the stand and away from gunfire (to avoid leaking whoever remains of the mafia), and Neutral Killing so they can reveal the mafia and gain a distraction for a few precious nights. This brings a lot of threat to the role near the end game but at that point he's already won so all he's doing at that point is trying to reveal to the mafia who is next on the "to shoot" list, and perhaps a new Mafioso to the NK or Vampires if the Polymath is some kind of wizard.

I think the best solution for the vampire situation would probably be to just change targets. Any decent Polymath wouldn't dare out themselves at this stage, so knowing a selection of who the vampire is shouldn't really effect the game much at this stage except perhaps by making it easier for the Polymath to find their target (with the two choices thing.) It may make it easier for him walking into the Neutral alignment, but by this point he's most likely already won.


Another question: If the last member of a faction dies mid-research (Example: Spoiler: Godfather McMafia is the GF, Dirty Money is the Janitor, and Plato the Polymath finds Dirty N4. Both of them are dead by Werewolf the next day after attempting to clean the Investigator. ), what happens? The Polymath cannot continue his research in the current vein, and he can't get a 2-person selection because there is nobody left in the mafia. Does he simply go on to Neutral and get notified that the Mafia is dead now?

[Skulomania]

Achievements are good incentives, but they lose their effect after the first time you receive them. And, while it would be smart for the polymath to keep searching after victory, I'm afraid that new Polymaths might not know this and will make some severe mistakes on their first few games. Not much we can do about that, though. In all games, even if there is a clear use for a new toy provided to the player, they will always use it improperly the first few times they get a hold of it. It might be best to put that aspect to the side for now.

Also, in terms of making the game go faster, after he wins the Polymath might have a bit of incentive to keep the located targets in his will, which would do the same as the "reveal after the gf is found" thing except with more information having been found and one less hanging the town needs to do the following day. Which gives everyone a reason to track him down late game: Town so they can find threats to hang, Mafia so as to locate someone they should keep off the stand and away from gunfire (to avoid leaking whoever remains of the mafia), and Neutral Killing so they can reveal the mafia and gain a distraction for a few precious nights. This brings a lot of threat to the role near the end game but at that point he's already won so all he's doing at that point is trying to reveal to the mafia who is next on the "to shoot" list, and perhaps a new Mafioso to the NK or Vampires if the Polymath is some kind of wizard.

I think the best solution for the vampire situation would probably be to just change targets. Any decent Polymath wouldn't dare out themselves at this stage, so knowing a selection of who the vampire is shouldn't really effect the game much at this stage except perhaps by making it easier for the Polymath to find their target (with the two choices thing.) It may make it easier for him walking into the Neutral alignment, but by this point he's most likely already won.


Another question: If the last member of a faction dies mid-research (Example: Spoiler: Godfather McMafia is the GF, Dirty Money is the Janitor, and Plato the Polymath finds Dirty N4. Both of them are dead by Werewolf the next day after attempting to clean the Investigator. ), what happens? The Polymath cannot continue his research in the current vein, and he can't get a 2-person selection because there is nobody left in the mafia. Does he simply go on to Neutral and get notified that the Mafia is dead now?

And yeah I am not too worried about what happens if people were to use the role in the beginning, as all roles take time to get good with and understood. For example when I first started playing, I played as disguiser and disguised as someone and thought that I killed myself so I left from embarrassment lol. So I mean all roles take a little time to get used to and are usually filled with some memorable mistakes.

And the achievements do lose their effect after you get them, however that is why I created the progressive identification achievements. Essentially finding all the leaders 25 times for all factions. It gives the Polymath a personal challenge to fulfill, and is bloody difficult and I think will take quite a long time to complete. Maybe there can be incentive to complete all the identification achievements, like maybe you get a medal , lobby icon, rank or something? With the Polymath essentially being one of a kind, we can come up with unique and special one of a kind features to the role. Heck there can even be maybe a Tip saying "Continuing to identify faction leaders post-goal is more beneficial for the Polymath' or something like that, although you get the idea.

And yeah the Polymath's will definitely adds more dynamic to the role and what the Polymath chooses to keep in his will can quite alter the course of the game and adds another threat level to the role, for even killing the role has interesting consequences in some circumstances.

And yeah I am leaning towards making it simply be forced to find the next town leader. It also potentially gives reason for vampires to target the role if they know the Polymath may of figured out vampires are in the game, or even keeping the Polymath alive, in-case the Polymath has noted that vampires are in the game in his will and the vampires want to keep it a secret so their best bet is to keep the Polymath alive. However at the same time, if they keep the Polymath alive for too long they will get themselves outed to Town if the NK dies or is not present, so they must be strategic in exploiting the Polymath. So yeah , it definitely opens up more strategy and implications on the course of the game.

What would happen is that the Polymath would essentially be forced to find the Neutral leader, and thus all the clues will simply disappear and you will have to now target a person with the Neutral faction to begin the search for the Neutral leader. If however there is still a mafia left, like lets say there is 4 or 5 in the game, 2 new clues will be given, but if the mafia were eliminated, you would skip to the Neutrals. If you do not find the Neutrals in time either before the game ends or they die, you lose. Edit: The Polymath can essentially find out if there is any mafia in the game before anyone else does(although some may already know depending on the circumstances), as if 3 mafia die, the Polymath will know if there is a 4th one or if there is no mafia left.

Thanks again for the continued feedback.

[spy]

Maybe It Is Werewolf Immune? Because of the Lore

[BlazinIce]

Maybe It Is Werewolf Immune? Because of the Lore

no

[Skulomania]

I am going to be bring up potential change(not very big) to the role but I would like some further feedback by other people before I implement it.

In light of the discussions with Judge , I am leaning towards making the Clues 4 players instead of 3. I feel this would add more of a challenge to the role, requiring more analysis skills, and also would keep the Polymath busy for a larger part of the game regarding its goal, as to minimize as many potential concerns that may arise post-goal.

Essentially the change will not take anything away from the role but what I have mentioned above. If you think about it, if you have 3 clues, and you randomly pick one, then the next one is a 50/50. So in this aspect, it seems quite luck-based and the fact that you can theoretically take all 3 targets to get the leader of the faction for both town and mafia and still win kind of defeats the purpose of the role requiring skill to complete and basically becomes partially button-mashing. So by making it 4 players, the Polymath will have to be a lot more selective in its choosing, as you most likely will not win the game if you take all 4 targets for both factions. So in this sense, it requires a lot more skill in terms of scum/town-reading and differentiating specific roles from each other and etc.

So yeah, If you could let me know if you support the idea change, or have any other feedback, it would be very much appreciated.