Shadowalker (Neutral Killing)

[TheWolfBuddy]

I think this role is great, not only does it give a NK the ability to frame people, it also gives a way to bypass BGs but only if you can find them. People are saying that it has immunity to BG and Lookout, but (like witch) Lookout can see the person they "follow(/witch)" and say they follow Person A to Person B, but Person C is guarding Person B, person C will die to and kill the SW, but if the SW follows Person C to Person B, they'll kill Person B with no repercussions. Then say Person A is a lookout, they'll see Person C visit Person B, and Person B die. But if Person A watched Person C, they would see the SW visit him, but have no idea who visited Person B. So it's not Lookout/Bodyguard immunity, as it is screwing with them. Say that the jailor is dead and he had in his will the person who claimed BG, and there is a mayor. The SW visits the Bodyguard, and kills the mayor, with any lookout seeing it as the Bodyguard killing the Mayor. But if they decide to kill the Mayor directly, because the Mayor doesn't visit anyone. The BG will kill the SW, and the Lookout will see both the Bodyguard and the Shadowalker visiting the mayor.

Not sure if this is a problem now but [/i]I got annoyed[/i] of seeing people post how it was up to RNG who you killed and that it was a hard-counter to Bodyguard.

...
No, it doesn't give the ability to frame people. Maybe in the beginning, but eventually people will get smart.

And it's not RNG. Random would have been a better word, but still.

Not once did I say it was RNG, it's more like the lookout, where some people say it's luck and the other's say it's skill. I'm one of the people who say it's skill but eh.
If you know what I meant about the framing, why did you say it wasn't possible to frame them? You admit it's possible to frame them but before that you say no you can't.

[murat1996]

You really can't. It just hides you and, if the target is a visiting role (and most of the time with non-visiting roles) it will confirm people caught by a lookout as not godfather.

Lookout is 100% skill whereas this is not. There is no strategy to this role. (._. )

There is a strategy, its called working under the radar.

[Frightened]

All the things I have said could be wrong,cuz think I got the ability wrong :S
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Can't it be unique? Because it seems like it is a combination of SK and WW and WW is already unique

Spoiler: If you are making it Non-Unique,just downgrade some skills.Cuz,it gets the win so easily(imagine all of the town goes for a night ability-townie and you are going for it.
Everyone would die except that townie.)
Questions:
1)Does it kill the followed one's followers,or the one who the followed one has followed?
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2)And if you follow a person and mafia killing does the same,will mafia killing still kill the person you followed?(MK will die anyway)
3)If you follow a vet and MK,WW and 2 Townies do the same,would you still be alive?(cuz you are killing followed person's followers,NOT the followed person,right?)
BTW,I really liked the idea,but in a game with WW/Arso or Mafia(because of the majority),neither Shadowalker nor Town(to Shadowalker) would stand a chance.
And can you tell about the role's priorities? (Like Shadowalker>Arso>SK...)

[ToSPlayerre]

Every NK has a weak spot or multiple weakish spots. SK doesn't pierce. Arsonist has hard invest results and a difficult time of who and when to douse. WW has to wait a night between kills, doubling the chance a TI will find them before they can kill the TI.

I feel that this role's weak spot should be that if the person's shadow that you are walking in dies, you die.

It fit's the role like a glove. The strategy would be picking someone unlikely to be visited. The golden moment would be finding someone night immune. But eventually, you kill your host, and be forced to move on.

Otherwise, /support

[BPsycho2]

Your target sticks to the shadows. They are either a Lookout, Witch, Forger, or Shadow Walker.


Anyways, Playerre, no. Target selection Is based on "who will they visit" rather than "am I going to get killed"

[murat1996]

Every NK has a weak spot or multiple weakish spots. SK doesn't pierce. Arsonist has hard invest results and a difficult time of who and when to douse. WW has to wait a night between kills, doubling the chance a TI will find them before they can kill the TI.

I feel that this role's weak spot should be that if the person's shadow that you are walking in dies, you die.

It fit's the role like a glove. The strategy would be picking someone unlikely to be visited. The golden moment would be finding someone night immune. But eventually, you kill your host, and be forced to move on.

Otherwise, /support

Let's say your host is night immune, you wouldn't be able to kill him if they visit you.

But that depends on the circumstances.

Your target sticks to the shadows. They are either a Lookout, Witch, Forger, or Shadow Walker.


Anyways, Playerre, no. Target selection Is based on "who will they visit" rather than "am I going to get killed"

Sure, I'll add it.

[Cenas4life]

It's an interesting concept, but it's just essentially a serial killer who doesn't get to choose who he kills, someone else chooses for him. I also don't think that bodyguards shouldn't be able to protect from him because that is just stupid and nerfs the bodyguard. /No Support

[murat1996]

It's an interesting concept, but it's just essentially a serial killer who doesn't get to choose who he kills, someone else chooses for him. I also don't think that bodyguards shouldn't be able to protect from him because that is just stupid and nerfs the bodyguard. /No Support

So you want to be killed by visiting one?

Remember, the BG is only nerfed slightly. BG can't protect your attack only if you targeted them, if you didn't they can still kill you.

Also not knowing isn't that bad, I mean its to be a different every night killer, so what did you expect?

Plus this was originally posted on May 20, 2015.

And back then it was actually rather popular, and devs gave a mention in their ama once.

[405UserNotAllowed]

Best way to make this role completely fair would be to remove night immunity. It would still be a good role, even without it.

Last post got removed. boring

Either way, terrible idea. All NK's need night immunity to properly function.

Completely untrue. There is no reason a NK actually needs night immunity.

[405UserNotAllowed]

What are the interactions with Vet?

If your target visits the Vet while on alert, you will kill the Vet and the vet will kill your target, but you will be unseen by Lookouts. If you target a Vet and they go on alert, I assume you die rather than kill them and live.

This kind of defeats the veteran a bit, and nerfs the role. The veteran can and will kill ANYONE who visits them. I think the shadowalker should die if their target is a vet on alert, AND if the targets target is a vet on alert. You are kind of giving the shadowalker vet immunity, and that is SUPER overpowered.

[murat1996]

What are the interactions with Vet?

If your target visits the Vet while on alert, you will kill the Vet and the vet will kill your target, but you will be unseen by Lookouts. If you target a Vet and they go on alert, I assume you die rather than kill them and live.

This kind of defeats the veteran a bit, and nerfs the role. The veteran can and will kill ANYONE who visits them. I think the shadowalker should die if their target is a vet on alert, AND if the targets target is a vet on alert. You are kind of giving the shadowalker vet immunity, and that is SUPER overpowered.

He does die to vet.

[BPsycho2]

welp. 1.5 is out.

Your target sticks to the shadows. they are either a Lookout, Amnesiac, Forger, or Shadowalker.

Until Orange makes a better result sheet, I guess this is it.

[murat1996]

welp. 1.5 is out.

Your target sticks to the shadows. they are either a Lookout, Amnesiac, Forger, or Shadowalker.

Until Orange makes a better result sheet, I guess this is it.

Ye, thanks for that I clearly forgot :/

[Skulomania]

My face reading through the comments. Spoiler:

I think the role is alright, although its main issue is that at its core, its based on random chance and the reliance on others. The other issue is that the whole lookout and BG thing totally messes with my mind.

Although to clearly outline my concerns as a concerned citizen of Salem ;

1. Its kills are random and based on another person's actions. This has several implications

1.1: You have little control on if you will attack or not attack. The person your shadowing can choose not to visit or he may not be able to visit anyone.

1.2: Due to its lack of control over killing, it actually may be utterly useless come late-game situations if all other killing roles are dead. Everyone can just decide not to visit anyone and bank on lynching through role claims.

1.3: Another implication of not being fully in control, is that strategy diminishes. This role essentially plans for other people do certain things. Yes there may be some strategy in certain situations, like shadowing a confirmed investigator, but at the end of the day your strategy relies on other people's decision to act or not. Yes the idea is cool in theory and could possibly be fun in the same aspects that Witch is fun, but is it realistic for a Neutral Killing role? I don't think so.

1.4: Also in regards to that investigator situation, if you do shadow that confirmed townie, do you not die if a BG is protecting him? If you don't die i think that is pretty unbalanced and rather boring, as in where is the challenge? Although if you do die to BG, then damn you might as well just randomly shadow people and pray to gods, because the odds are the investigator will know hes being shadowed and tell the TP to be on him, or the TP will already be on him, making you continually visit him a horrible idea.

Well i think that is it. Overall it's a cool idea, nothing to complex, although i do not think it would be a viable NK role in the game due to the fundamental principles that this role was built upon.

I mean it could work, but if only 1 new NK were to be added in the game, this would not be high on my priority list, as i think the game would benefit from a different NK role.

[murat1996]

My face reading through the comments. Spoiler:

I think the role is alright, although its main issue is that at its core, its based on random chance and the reliance on others. The other issue is that the whole lookout and BG thing totally messes with my mind.

Although to clearly outline my concerns as a concerned citizen of Salem ;

1. Its kills are random and based on another person's actions. This has several implications

1.1: You have little control on if you will attack or not attack. The person your shadowing can choose not to visit or he may not be able to visit anyone.

1.2: Due to its lack of control over killing, it actually may be utterly useless come late-game situations if all other killing roles are dead. Everyone can just decide not to visit anyone and bank on lynching through role claims.

1.3: Another implication of not being fully in control, is that strategy diminishes. This role essentially plans for other people do certain things. Yes there may be some strategy in certain situations, like shadowing a confirmed investigator, but at the end of the day your strategy relies on other people's decision to act or not. Yes the idea is cool in theory and could possibly be fun in the same aspects that Witch is fun, but is it realistic for a Neutral Killing role? I don't think so.

1.4: Also in regards to that investigator situation, if you do shadow that confirmed townie, do you not die if a BG is protecting him? If you don't die i think that is pretty unbalanced and rather boring, as in where is the challenge? Although if you do die to BG, then damn you might as well just randomly shadow people and pray to gods, because the odds are the investigator will know hes being shadowed and tell the TP to be on him, or the TP will already be on him, making you continually visit him a horrible idea.

Well i think that is it. Overall it's a cool idea, nothing to complex, although i do not think it would be a viable NK role in the game due to the fundamental principles that this role was built upon.

I mean it could work, but if only 1 new NK were to be added in the game, this would not be high on my priority list, as i think the game would benefit from a different NK role.

1.1/1.2 umm if they don't visit, they will be attacked directly.

1.3 yes I understand that coming up with a strategy will be hard, but it's still doable.

1.4 technically speaking, you wouldn't be killing the invest as he is visiting someone, but I suppose the BG would be triggered?

Now that can be debatable.

[Skulomania]

1.1/1.2 umm if they don't visit, they will be attacked directly.

1.3 yes I understand that coming up with a strategy will be hard, but it's still doable.

1.4 technically speaking, you wouldn't be killing the invest as he is visiting someone, but I suppose the BG would be triggered?

Now that can be debatable.

Oh right i forgot about the fact that it kills if the individual does not visit. For some reason i read it and when when i clicked 'reply' it just totally blanked out. So yeah the two points regarding targets not deciding to act are wrong.

Although the points towards the strategy being rather difficult because of the lack of control on who you kill and its interaction with the BG are still issues i have with the role. The role is definitely better (than when i thought for some reason you don't kill the target if he doesn't act) but again, with most roles having visiting abilities, i feel like it will be almost impossible to actually kill someone you want, which again relates to the difficulty with strategy.

So yeah, the role is nice in its totality, but I'm not a fan of the lack of control the Shadowalker has over its main function, which is killing. It's definitely doable as you have stated though, but I just feel that extra challenge and difficulty, especially for alignment that is already hard to win as, is unnecessary.

Not to mention the Shadowalkers full potential is compromised because the user is unable to be in full control of who he kills, and rather relies on others to visit the specific target in mind (or relies that the role is a non-visiting role), which is totally absurd though because why wouldn't you just kill the target you want and be done with it. Which is what i mean by an unnecessary difficulty that the NK alignment does not need.

[405UserNotAllowed]

What are the interactions with Vet?

If your target visits the Vet while on alert, you will kill the Vet and the vet will kill your target, but you will be unseen by Lookouts. If you target a Vet and they go on alert, I assume you die rather than kill them and live.

This kind of defeats the veteran a bit, and nerfs the role. The veteran can and will kill ANYONE who visits them. I think the shadowalker should die if their target is a vet on alert, AND if the targets target is a vet on alert. You are kind of giving the shadowalker vet immunity, and that is SUPER overpowered.

He does die to vet.

Noooo, as it says above "If your target visits a the vet while on alert, [b]You will KILL the vet, and the vet will kill your target./b] The vet should kill you as well. Otherwise this makes the role super overpowered, and can supposedly go through night immunity.

[Cenas4life]

What are the interactions with Vet?

If your target visits the Vet while on alert, you will kill the Vet and the vet will kill your target, but you will be unseen by Lookouts. If you target a Vet and they go on alert, I assume you die rather than kill them and live.

This kind of defeats the veteran a bit, and nerfs the role. The veteran can and will kill ANYONE who visits them. I think the shadowalker should die if their target is a vet on alert, AND if the targets target is a vet on alert. You are kind of giving the shadowalker vet immunity, and that is SUPER overpowered.

He does die to vet.

Noooo, as it says above "If your target visits a the vet while on alert, [b]You will KILL the vet, and the vet will kill your target./b] The vet should kill you as well. Otherwise this makes the role super overpowered, and can supposedly go through night immunity.

Agreed. The vet should kill you to.

[murat1996]

What are the interactions with Vet?

If your target visits the Vet while on alert, you will kill the Vet and the vet will kill your target, but you will be unseen by Lookouts. If you target a Vet and they go on alert, I assume you die rather than kill them and live.

This kind of defeats the veteran a bit, and nerfs the role. The veteran can and will kill ANYONE who visits them. I think the shadowalker should die if their target is a vet on alert, AND if the targets target is a vet on alert. You are kind of giving the shadowalker vet immunity, and that is SUPER overpowered.

He does die to vet.

Noooo, as it says above "If your target visits a the vet while on alert, [b]You will KILL the vet, and the vet will kill your target./b] The vet should kill you as well. Otherwise this makes the role super overpowered, and can supposedly go through night immunity.

Agreed. The vet should kill you to.

Yes it should kill you, since you followed someone that visited them after all.

[murat1996]

I have changed or added something's

Tell me, does it make it better or worse?

[Parallax7]

The only change is showing up as NS, correct?

Yeah, I remember playing a year or so ago when Werewolf wasn't immune... feltbadman.

[Parallax7]

And how does that relate?

In short NK needs night immunity...

[Parallax7]

This NK has night immunity.

I was replying to your statement about Werewolf not having it a while back.

[Gooose26]

So it can't technically control who he kills, unless he has substantial information, so that's a bit swingy. I mean he ignores anybody who could make that bad against you, but not being able to kill who you need to kill without guessing correctly is extremely swingy in my opinion.

I've played this in TG and I can't stand it as, even though there are basically only 6 players in a game, I can never kill anybody who needs to die. How would you deal with jailor against this? As we know jailor can rip apart scum if left untouched, same thing with vigilante, and this can't reliably deal with that. In fact it can't reliably deal with anything, just avoid tp and lookout.

Is there a way we can vote this out of TG? There are a lot of roles in there I don't like, in fact

[murat1996]

The only change is showing up as NS, correct?

Its in the Info section, that I wanted checked out.