Politician (Neutral Evil)

Old Role Ideas

Vote if you think this should be added to the game

Yes
165
83%
Yes
35
18%
 
Total votes : 200

Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:10 pm

I'll allow it, everyone's doing it so I might as well.

It's not like your role has competed yet anyways.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:36 pm

Kirize12 wrote:I'll allow it, everyone's doing it so I might as well.

It's not like your role has competed yet anyways.

Ok, thanks!
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby ReEvolve » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:13 am

I think this should be added however does it mean that if it is just you and one other person you can bribe them to vote against themselves?
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Blaze116 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:11 pm

Don't make any sorta poll with two yes options. It's just pointless because everyone who says no will click the bottom yes.

I support the role, not the poll.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:17 pm

Blaze116 wrote:Don't make any sorta poll with two yes options. It's just pointless because everyone who says no will click the bottom yes.

I support the role, not the poll.

It's not a poll, it's a petition.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby cxl1024 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:54 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Blaze116 wrote:Don't make any sorta poll with two yes options. It's just pointless because everyone who says no will click the bottom yes.

I support the role, not the poll.

It's not a poll, it's a petition.


Yeah but the title of the poll is a question so it's a little misleading. Hilary and Donald don't go around asking "Should I be voted for?" lol...

Mace, can you change it to "Vote to put this in the game."
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:55 pm

cxl1024 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
Blaze116 wrote:Don't make any sorta poll with two yes options. It's just pointless because everyone who says no will click the bottom yes.

I support the role, not the poll.

It's not a poll, it's a petition.


Yeah but the title of the poll is a question so it's a little misleading. Hilary and Donald don't go around asking "Should I be voted for?" lol...

Mace, can you change it to "Vote to put this in the game."

Ok.
ReEvolve wrote:I think this should be added however does it mean that if it is just you and one other person you can bribe them to vote against themselves?

Uhhhh, you do know that you can't vote yourself up, right?
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Cenas4life » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:54 pm

This role sounds quite interesting. I would however suggest making it a mafia role instead of a neutral role as I think that way it would be more effective. Since I overall like it though, /Support
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:38 am

Cenas4life wrote:This role sounds quite interesting. I would however suggest making it a mafia role instead of a neutral role as I think that way it would be more effective. Since I overall like it though, /Support

There's an argument about that on the first page. You could check it out and find out why it's better as Neutral Evil. If you still disagree with it being Neutral, I'll be here to agree to disagree. :)
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Skulomania » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:56 am

The Politician is definitely better as Neutral Evil. With the quite uneventful and lacking NE roles currently in the game, i think this is an NE role that is quite needed in the game.

Most roles on the role-thread are good/fair, but only a few are actually needed and should be implemented in the game. This is one of those roles.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Dylan6249 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:59 am

This is a role that is confirmed to be in the card game. So maybe it will also be in the main game

http://cdn.crowdfundinsider.com/wp-cont ... alem-2.jpg
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Cenas4life » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:09 am

Mace8937 wrote:
Cenas4life wrote:This role sounds quite interesting. I would however suggest making it a mafia role instead of a neutral role as I think that way it would be more effective. Since I overall like it though, /Support

There's an argument about that on the first page. You could check it out and find out why it's better as Neutral Evil. If you still disagree with it being Neutral, I'll be here to agree to disagree. :)


After reading the posts on the first page, I agree that it should be a nuetral evil role. /More Support
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:20 am

Dylan6249 wrote:This is a role that is confirmed to be in the card game. So maybe it will also be in the main game

http://cdn.crowdfundinsider.com/wp-cont ... alem-2.jpg

Did you even read the description?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby JazzMusicStops » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:00 am

Dylan6249 wrote:This is a role that is confirmed to be in the card game. So maybe it will also be in the main game

http://cdn.crowdfundinsider.com/wp-cont ... alem-2.jpg

If you read both roles you would know that they are completely different
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:48 pm

I'm just going to put a message at the top of the OP that will be a reminder that this is not the Card Game's Politician.

Skulomania wrote:The Politician is definitely better as Neutral Evil. With the quite uneventful and lacking NE roles currently in the game, i think this is an NE role that is quite needed in the game.

Most roles on the role-thread are good/fair, but only a few are actually needed and should be implemented in the game. This is one of those roles.

Thank you :D
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby PoptartPresident » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:45 pm

Actually. I while back I came up with a Mafia role very similar to how this works. (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=44766&hilit=+Vote+Blocker)

I'd love it if you'd take my post into consideration, and try to compare it with your politician role.
Because I really believe someone with this similarish ability should be in the game.

Don't you think it'd be a good Mafia support role? (Please reply to this only if you read my post)
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:47 pm

It's too powerful as Mafia Support.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:36 am

In Ranked Mafia already have a confirmed 3-4 votes for their team (4 if the Any is Mafia).
Then add the extra daily vote from the Politician (If he is turned over to being Mafia). That's 4-5 five votes every single day! (Unless Politician is rb'ed)
There are 15 players in a regular game. With the Politician's extra vote, Mafia already has about/exactly 1/3 majority! And that fraction keeps increasing as they keep killing.

Let me just do some math:
So. With the maximum daily votes for the Mafia being 5 votes. 5/15.
With there being 3 Neutrals in the game. 3/15.
3/15 + 5/15 (If Amnesiac turns evil) = 8/15! Which gives the max amount of evil votes in Ranked majority over Town's votes.
If the Amne doesn't turn evil, it does give Town majority (8/15), but that will quickly change through the night with killings.
Like Kirize said, it would be way too powerful as Mafia. Giving it power it shouldn't.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Drackzgull » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:18 am

Excelent role idea, definitely should be added to game. I have just one small suggestion:

If you are forced to target yourself, the ability should just fail, because:
- You are already using the Neutral Evil slot, the presence of a Witch is quite unlikely. (in ranked)
- If there is a Witch anyway, they will almost never make you target yourself. Why would they ever unless just randomly and just once?
- If it was a Transporter that messed you up, then the Transporter did his job, and it's fair that they get you to fail.
- Conceptually it makes no sense to bribe yourself, your money is still your money. It makes even less sense to gain voting power from that.

Other than that this is pure perfection. /Support
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:50 pm

Drackzgull wrote:Excelent role idea, definitely should be added to game. I have just one small suggestion:

If you are forced to target yourself, the ability should just fail, because:
- You are already using the Neutral Evil slot, the presence of a Witch is quite unlikely. (in ranked)
- If there is a Witch anyway, they will almost never make you target yourself. Why would they ever unless just randomly and just once?
- If it was a Transporter that messed you up, then the Transporter did his job, and it's fair that they get you to fail.
- Conceptually it makes no sense to bribe yourself, your money is still your money. It makes even less sense to gain voting power from that.

Other than that this is pure perfection. /Support

Witch: Witch would make you target yourself in case you're Jailor to execute whoever you are jailing. Make you kill yourself, if you have no NI and are able to kill. Arso to ignite. Werewolf to stay at home. etc. There's alot of people who do this if you might be one of these roles.
Last point: Balance > Lore
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Drackzgull » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:01 pm

Mace8937 wrote:
Drackzgull wrote:Excelent role idea, definitely should be added to game. I have just one small suggestion:

If you are forced to target yourself, the ability should just fail, because:
- You are already using the Neutral Evil slot, the presence of a Witch is quite unlikely. (in ranked)
- If there is a Witch anyway, they will almost never make you target yourself. Why would they ever unless just randomly and just once?
- If it was a Transporter that messed you up, then the Transporter did his job, and it's fair that they get you to fail.
- Conceptually it makes no sense to bribe yourself, your money is still your money. It makes even less sense to gain voting power from that.

Other than that this is pure perfection. /Support

Witch: Witch would make you target yourself in case you're Jailor to execute whoever you are jailing. Make you kill yourself, if you have no NI and are able to kill. Arso to ignite. Werewolf to stay at home. etc. There's alot of people who do this if you might be one of these roles.
Last point: Balance > Lore

- To force the Jailor to execute someone the Witch must control them to target the jailed person, not themselves. Making them target themselves roleblocks the execution, but anyone except the jailed person works for that as well.
- Making you kill yourself is almost exclusively beneficial for the Witch if you're a Vigilante, and in that case it's far better to make the Vigilante kill another townie, except in very specific and uncommon late game scenarios where a Politician will almost never be suspected of being the Vigilante.
- An exception to the above is making a Mafioso kill themselves when there is no Godfather and the Witch is taking sides with the Neutral Killing. Again an uncommon late game scenario where the Politician won't be the suspect.
- Forcing a Werewolf to stay home is suicide, they will kill all visitors and the Witch will be one of them.
- Arsonist; that one is a good point.

As I mentioned the Politician is already using the Neutral Evil slot so there also being a Witch is unlikely on top of the unlikeliness of the scenarios where the Politician will be forced on himself by the Witch. I think balacing the possibility of being forced to target yourself around the Transporter far outweights balancing it around the Witch.

Balance > Lore indeed, but Lore still gets a little consideration after balance has been argumented, and I have.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:17 pm

Drackzgull wrote:
Mace8937 wrote:
Drackzgull wrote:Excelent role idea, definitely should be added to game. I have just one small suggestion:

If you are forced to target yourself, the ability should just fail, because:
- You are already using the Neutral Evil slot, the presence of a Witch is quite unlikely. (in ranked)
- If there is a Witch anyway, they will almost never make you target yourself. Why would they ever unless just randomly and just once?
- If it was a Transporter that messed you up, then the Transporter did his job, and it's fair that they get you to fail.
- Conceptually it makes no sense to bribe yourself, your money is still your money. It makes even less sense to gain voting power from that.

Other than that this is pure perfection. /Support

Witch: Witch would make you target yourself in case you're Jailor to execute whoever you are jailing. Make you kill yourself, if you have no NI and are able to kill. Arso to ignite. Werewolf to stay at home. etc. There's alot of people who do this if you might be one of these roles.
Last point: Balance > Lore

- Forcing a Werewolf to stay home is suicide, they will kill all visitors and the Witch will be one of them.

Balance > Lore indeed, but Lore still gets a little consideration after balance has been argumented, and I have.

(Just going to focus on these two points)
1. Suiciding might be worth it to get rid of a few important Townies. But it be gamethrowing, considering you have to survive to the end of the game. Then again, you are killing Townies, which is towards your wincon. But I agree, it's a stupid strategy. Unless you got outed after voting the previous day, and were going to die anyway.
2. However, Lore should not affect the Balance of a role.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Drackzgull » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:25 pm

Mace8937 wrote: Spoiler:
Drackzgull wrote:
Mace8937 wrote:
Drackzgull wrote:Excelent role idea, definitely should be added to game. I have just one small suggestion:

If you are forced to target yourself, the ability should just fail, because:
- You are already using the Neutral Evil slot, the presence of a Witch is quite unlikely. (in ranked)
- If there is a Witch anyway, they will almost never make you target yourself. Why would they ever unless just randomly and just once?
- If it was a Transporter that messed you up, then the Transporter did his job, and it's fair that they get you to fail.
- Conceptually it makes no sense to bribe yourself, your money is still your money. It makes even less sense to gain voting power from that.

Other than that this is pure perfection. /Support

Witch: Witch would make you target yourself in case you're Jailor to execute whoever you are jailing. Make you kill yourself, if you have no NI and are able to kill. Arso to ignite. Werewolf to stay at home. etc. There's alot of people who do this if you might be one of these roles.
Last point: Balance > Lore

- Forcing a Werewolf to stay home is suicide, they will kill all visitors and the Witch will be one of them.

Balance > Lore indeed, but Lore still gets a little consideration after balance has been argumented, and I have.

(Just going to focus on these two points)
1. Suiciding might be worth it to get rid of a few important Townies. But it be gamethrowing, considering you have to survive to the end of the game. Then again, you are killing Townies, which is towards your wincon. But I agree, it's a stupid strategy. Unless you got outed after voting the previous day, and were going to die anyway.
2. However, Lore should not affect the Balance of a role.


You are correct on both points. However the lore is not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that I believe, for reasons I have explained, that when the Politician's ability is forced to be targeted on himself, making the ability fail is a more balanced solution than it's current state. The lore just so happens to agree with my posture.
Meet my role idea: The Sniper (Town Killing)

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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:25 pm

Drackzgull wrote:
Mace8937 wrote: Spoiler:
Drackzgull wrote:
Mace8937 wrote:
Drackzgull wrote:Excelent role idea, definitely should be added to game. I have just one small suggestion:

If you are forced to target yourself, the ability should just fail, because:
- You are already using the Neutral Evil slot, the presence of a Witch is quite unlikely. (in ranked)
- If there is a Witch anyway, they will almost never make you target yourself. Why would they ever unless just randomly and just once?
- If it was a Transporter that messed you up, then the Transporter did his job, and it's fair that they get you to fail.
- Conceptually it makes no sense to bribe yourself, your money is still your money. It makes even less sense to gain voting power from that.

Other than that this is pure perfection. /Support

Witch: Witch would make you target yourself in case you're Jailor to execute whoever you are jailing. Make you kill yourself, if you have no NI and are able to kill. Arso to ignite. Werewolf to stay at home. etc. There's alot of people who do this if you might be one of these roles.
Last point: Balance > Lore

- Forcing a Werewolf to stay home is suicide, they will kill all visitors and the Witch will be one of them.

Balance > Lore indeed, but Lore still gets a little consideration after balance has been argumented, and I have.

(Just going to focus on these two points)
1. Suiciding might be worth it to get rid of a few important Townies. But it be gamethrowing, considering you have to survive to the end of the game. Then again, you are killing Townies, which is towards your wincon. But I agree, it's a stupid strategy. Unless you got outed after voting the previous day, and were going to die anyway.
2. However, Lore should not affect the Balance of a role.


You are correct on both points. However the lore is not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that I believe, for reasons I have explained, that when the Politician's ability is forced to be targeted on himself, making the ability fail is a more balanced solution than it's current state. The lore just so happens to agree with my posture.

However, why would the Politician not be able to do his ability when Witched/Transported to himself when other roles can?
Killing, going on alert, checking if vampire (useless, but still happens), blackmailing, cleaning, etc.
It seems unfair if the Politician is targeted to himself and it does nothing, when other roles have to deal with the consequences/time wasting of targeting themselves.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Drackzgull » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:45 pm

Mace8937 wrote: Spoiler:
Drackzgull wrote:
Mace8937 wrote:
Drackzgull wrote:
Mace8937 wrote:
Drackzgull wrote:Excelent role idea, definitely should be added to game. I have just one small suggestion:

If you are forced to target yourself, the ability should just fail, because:
- You are already using the Neutral Evil slot, the presence of a Witch is quite unlikely. (in ranked)
- If there is a Witch anyway, they will almost never make you target yourself. Why would they ever unless just randomly and just once?
- If it was a Transporter that messed you up, then the Transporter did his job, and it's fair that they get you to fail.
- Conceptually it makes no sense to bribe yourself, your money is still your money. It makes even less sense to gain voting power from that.

Other than that this is pure perfection. /Support

Witch: Witch would make you target yourself in case you're Jailor to execute whoever you are jailing. Make you kill yourself, if you have no NI and are able to kill. Arso to ignite. Werewolf to stay at home. etc. There's alot of people who do this if you might be one of these roles.
Last point: Balance > Lore

- Forcing a Werewolf to stay home is suicide, they will kill all visitors and the Witch will be one of them.

Balance > Lore indeed, but Lore still gets a little consideration after balance has been argumented, and I have.

(Just going to focus on these two points)
1. Suiciding might be worth it to get rid of a few important Townies. But it be gamethrowing, considering you have to survive to the end of the game. Then again, you are killing Townies, which is towards your wincon. But I agree, it's a stupid strategy. Unless you got outed after voting the previous day, and were going to die anyway.
2. However, Lore should not affect the Balance of a role.


You are correct on both points. However the lore is not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that I believe, for reasons I have explained, that when the Politician's ability is forced to be targeted on himself, making the ability fail is a more balanced solution than it's current state. The lore just so happens to agree with my posture.

However, why would the Politician not be able to do his ability when Witched/Transported to himself when other roles can?
Killing, going on alert, checking if vampire (useless, but still happens), blackmailing, cleaning, etc.
It seems unfair if the Politician is targeted to himself and it does nothing, when other roles have to deal with the consequences/time wasting of targeting themselves.


Because the ability of the Politician is stealing someone's vote, if you steal your own vote then you only get your vote, the way you have it it becomes an entirely different ability when used on yourself, duplicating the target's (you) vote instead of stealing it. The Bodyguard is a good example of a similar case, if as a Bodyguard you're forced to target yourself then you get forced to use your vest, if you don't have your vest anymore then you just fail, you don't get to guard yourself, and potentially sacrifice yourself to protect yourself killing your attacker. True, the Bodyguard's vest is a different ability than the one he uses on others, but so is the Politician's, the difference is the Politician can't use this alternate ability unless he's forced to.

EDIT: I actually just thought of a better alternative than just making it fail. Make it disable your LeftBox to cast your vote, while making your RightBox comandeer your vote. This way the ability can be forced on yourself, and it's the same ability you use on anyone else.
Meet my role idea: The Sniper (Town Killing)

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