Politician (Neutral Evil)

Old Role Ideas

Vote if you think this should be added to the game

Yes
165
83%
Yes
35
18%
 
Total votes : 200

Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby nebulosity » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:19 pm

I like this a lot. It adds voting power for evil roles, something that can be really beneficial for non-town. /fullsupport
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby BPsycho2 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:00 pm

Better Consigliere results in accordance to the better Consigliere results list provided by Orangeandblack5 and myself.

Your target always has a spare suit and tie. They must be the Politician!

That's an example. You can probably think of something else, probably something that has to do with money. I'll think about this more as well.


Edit: What's the hex code for the Politician again? I tried to put the color in, but it ended up looking like Amnesiac.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:18 pm

Wouldn't a lot of roles have spare suits and ties?

A better one: Your target has pictures of town leaders and nooses scattered all over his house.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby BPsycho2 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:58 pm

I know it isn't good, just my first thought. About yours, if it has nooses everywhere, it would be Exe.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:26 pm

BPsycho2 wrote:Edit: What's the hex code for the Politician again? I tried to put the color in, but it ended up looking like Amnesiac.

#80BFBF
And I might update the Consig results.
I'll take all ideas into consideration.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:27 pm

BPsycho2 wrote:I know it isn't good, just my first thought. About yours, if it has nooses everywhere, it would be Exe.

No, an EXE would have pictures of it's target, each marked with a bloody red X.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:31 pm

Maybe:
Your target is a corrupt businessperson?
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:39 pm

B wants Consig results to be more investigator than psychiatrist.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby kookeekwisp » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:59 pm

What's the point of having a double Yes?
Everyone already votes according to [1=yes | 2=no] anyways, so stop inflating your ego.

As for the role, Gaining someone's vote with force seems more like a Vampire trait. It should be Neutral (Chaos), because it can win against town alone.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby cxl1024 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:10 pm

kookeekwisp wrote:What's the point of having a double Yes?
Everyone already votes according to [1=yes | 2=no] anyways, so stop inflating your ego.

As for the role, Gaining someone's vote with force seems more like a Vampire trait. It should be Neutral (Chaos), because it can win against town alone.


Got a problem with the double yes? If you like the role, then you vote yes. If you don't like the role, you vote yes. I don't see the issue here haha
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:19 pm

FFS it's not a poll, it's a petition.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:25 pm

kookeekwisp wrote:What's the point of having a double Yes?
Everyone already votes according to [1=yes | 2=no] anyways, so stop inflating your ego.

As for the role, Gaining someone's vote with force seems more like a Vampire trait. It should be Neutral (Chaos), because it can win against town alone.

1. It's a petition, not a poll. If people don't like it they can give me feedback in the comments.
2. It fits better as NE because it's wincon is to see the Town lose the game. NE is against Town, and wins with all non-Town. NC is for roles that win with themselves, Witches, Survivors, Exe, Amne, and Jester.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby BPsycho2 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:32 pm

Politician can win alone, but the Witch can win alone as well.

This is NE, and that's how It should stay.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby JohnnyReklaw » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:34 pm

I have a major mathematical issue with this role. You're not just removing one town vote, you're giving town a potential -2 in voting power to town. The politician isn't just having 2 votes, he's negating one (probably town) vote. This is a gain of 1 vote for "evil" purposes and -1 for "good" purposes. Overall, -2 for town.

Take a standard ranked game with 3 mafia, 1 NK, NE, NB, and 9 town. Assume the mafia hits 2 nights of killing town and town player count is 13 (doesn't even count NK's kills). Also take into consideration the probability of everyone knowing at LEAST 1 Confirmed town member. Politician steals confirmed town's vote, now leaving 5 votes that don't want Mafia hung. If NK kills just once, you're down to needing 6 for majority votes, which is every town member. How often is everyone in town going to agree on day 3? Suddenly, one random vote turns into lynching town, and this position being OVERPOWERED for Evil.

With a mayor in play, this role simply balances the mayor's votes essentially making mayor a normal voter (as town is -2 voting power but +2 with Mayor).

I know how often games go into 7+ days of play, but this role would negate the necessity of there being more than about 5 in-game days of a game. If mafia has 3 members (or in some cases, 4), majority voting power soon lies with them if they can find a politician (consig, asking players) as they gain not only Neutral Evil's vote, but a town vote is stolen and used against them. Yes, vigilante, Jailor, veteran MAY even the scores, but this is not putting the town in any better position as its likely to go -1 vote good, -1 vote evil. (1 town killed, 1 evil killed).

I can see a few possible solutions, however, that would make it more balanced.
1) No vote stealing, just vote blocking. Now you're down to a 1 vote difference, not 2.
2) Make the politician NOT win with Mafia. He takes orders from no one (Godfather or Mayor), so he doesn't win with town or mafia. He now has to know who has majority, and keep swaying votes to "balance" the majority. Furthermore, this gives Arsonists, WW, and SK's an ally who can help them because winning with Neutral Killing is HARD. (Perhaps he just has to get GF and Mayor killed?) [Yes, this would require a mayor in game, but VH requires vampires]
3) Limit the uses of stolen votes. I assume you steal a vote a night, so you determine ahead of time what day you'll steal a vote; but also make them only have the power 2 times (maybe 3, though if you wait until mid-game, you can sway for mafia too quickly IMHO).

I love the idea of the character, but mathematically you're swaying 2 votes from town, which can cripple the town.


The ideas within this post are my personal opinion, please take nothing personally.

Thanks,
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby JazzMusicStops » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:49 pm

JohnnyReklaw wrote:I have a major mathematical issue with this role. You're not just removing one town vote, you're giving town a potential -2 in voting power to town. The politician isn't just having 2 votes, he's negating one (probably town) vote. This is a gain of 1 vote for "evil" purposes and -1 for "good" purposes. Overall, -2 for town.

Take a standard ranked game with 3 mafia, 1 NK, NE, NB, and 9 town. Assume the mafia hits 2 nights of killing town and town player count is 13 (doesn't even count NK's kills). Also take into consideration the probability of everyone knowing at LEAST 1 Confirmed town member. Politician steals confirmed town's vote, now leaving 5 votes that don't want Mafia hung. If NK kills just once, you're down to needing 6 for majority votes, which is every town member. How often is everyone in town going to agree on day 3? Suddenly, one random vote turns into lynching town, and this position being OVERPOWERED for Evil.

With a mayor in play, this role simply balances the mayor's votes essentially making mayor a normal voter (as town is -2 voting power but +2 with Mayor).

I know how often games go into 7+ days of play, but this role would negate the necessity of there being more than about 5 in-game days of a game. If mafia has 3 members (or in some cases, 4), majority voting power soon lies with them if they can find a politician (consig, asking players) as they gain not only Neutral Evil's vote, but a town vote is stolen and used against them. Yes, vigilante, Jailor, veteran MAY even the scores, but this is not putting the town in any better position as its likely to go -1 vote good, -1 vote evil. (1 town killed, 1 evil killed).

I can see a few possible solutions, however, that would make it more balanced.
1) No vote stealing, just vote blocking. Now you're down to a 1 vote difference, not 2.
2) Make the politician NOT win with Mafia. He takes orders from no one (Godfather or Mayor), so he doesn't win with town or mafia. He now has to know who has majority, and keep swaying votes to "balance" the majority. Furthermore, this gives Arsonists, WW, and SK's an ally who can help them because winning with Neutral Killing is HARD. (Perhaps he just has to get GF and Mayor killed?) [Yes, this would require a mayor in game, but VH requires vampires]
3) Limit the uses of stolen votes. I assume you steal a vote a night, so you determine ahead of time what day you'll steal a vote; but also make them only have the power 2 times (maybe 3, though if you wait until mid-game, you can sway for mafia too quickly IMHO).

I love the idea of the character, but mathematically you're swaying 2 votes from town, which can cripple the town.


The ideas within this post are my personal opinion, please take nothing personally.

Thanks,

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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:49 pm

JohnnyReklaw wrote:I have a major mathematical issue with this role. You're not just removing one town vote, you're giving town a potential -2 in voting power to town. The politician isn't just having 2 votes, he's negating one (probably town) vote. This is a gain of 1 vote for "evil" purposes and -1 for "good" purposes. Overall, -2 for town. It's not an issue, it's main purpose to to take votes, and that's what it does, it helps the bad guys.

Take a standard ranked game with 3 mafia, 1 NK, NE, NB, and 9 town. Assume the mafia hits 2 nights of killing town and town player count is 13 (doesn't even count NK's kills). Also take into consideration the probability of everyone knowing at LEAST 1 Confirmed town member. Politician steals confirmed town's vote, now leaving 5 votes that don't want Mafia hung. If NK kills just once, you're down to needing 6 for majority votes, which is every town member. How often is everyone in town going to agree on day 3? Suddenly, one random vote turns into lynching town, and this position being OVERPOWERED for Evil. It suits NE perfectly fine, it's main goal is to screw with Town.

With a mayor in play, this role simply balances the mayor's votes essentially making mayor a normal voter (as town is -2 voting power but +2 with Mayor). Did you read all of the OP? Politician can't bribe a revealed Mayor.

I know how often games go into 7+ days of play, but this role would negate the necessity of there being more than about 5 in-game days of a game. If mafia has 3 members (or in some cases, 4), majority voting power soon lies with them if they can find a politician (consig, asking players) as they gain not only Neutral Evil's vote, but a town vote is stolen and used against them. Yes, vigilante, Jailor, veteran MAY even the scores, but this is not putting the town in any better position as its likely to go -1 vote good, -1 vote evil. (1 town killed, 1 evil killed).

I can see a few possible solutions, however, that would make it more balanced.
1) No vote stealing, just vote blocking. Now you're down to a 1 vote difference, not 2. No. Then it will hurt its allies more than help them. If you bribe a Mafia member (in your way) the evil roles lose a vote. If you bribe a Mafia member (My way) The evil roles don't lose any votes. It's more balanced the way it is.
2) Make the politician NOT win with Mafia. He takes orders from no one (Godfather or Mayor), so he doesn't win with town or mafia. He now has to know who has majority, and keep swaying votes to "balance" the majority. Furthermore, this gives Arsonists, WW, and SK's an ally who can help them because winning with Neutral Killing is HARD. (Perhaps he just has to get GF and Mayor killed?) [Yes, this would require a mayor in game, but VH requires vampires] Don't bring up VH, it was a huge mistake to add on the developers' part, and is completely unbalanced. Taking away its ability to win with Mafia makes it almost impossible to put into another Neutral alignment. NE is for roles that win with all scum roles. NB is for roles that win with everyone. NC is for roles that win alone with Survivors and Witches, don't kill, and have a unique goal. NK is for roles that kill, have a unique goal, and win alone with Survivors and Witches. If we make it unable to win with Mafia, we might as well make it Town.
3) Limit the uses of stolen votes. I assume you steal a vote a night, so you determine ahead of time what day you'll steal a vote; but also make them only have the power 2 times (maybe 3, though if you wait until mid-game, you can sway for mafia too quickly IMHO). IMO no NE should have limited uses, as their main goal is to cripple Town, with limited uses after they use them up the only thing they can do to help scum is an extra vote.So no.

I love the idea of the character, but mathematically you're swaying 2 votes from town, which can cripple the town. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF IT BEING NEUTRAL EVIL! NE is meant to cripple Town.


The ideas within this post are my personal opinion, please take nothing personally.

Thanks,
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby BPsycho2 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:26 pm

So, this man, Johnny Reklaw basically wants Politician to be neutral chaos and have to bounce back and forth trying to kill both Mafia and Town
No.

Or He wants it to be a role who instantly wins when both the Mayor and Godfather die?
No.

And he justifies it using the Vampire Hunter, a pitiful excuse for a Town Killer that ONLY fits in NB (And that's a stretch. It should be gone, but NB will do.)
NO!

Someone help this man.

Help this man see that this role is designed purely to screw with the town.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby JohnnyReklaw » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:32 am

BPsycho2 wrote:So, this man, Johnny Reklaw basically wants Politician to be neutral chaos and have to bounce back and forth trying to kill both Mafia and Town
No.

Or He wants it to be a role who instantly wins when both the Mayor and Godfather die?
No.

And he justifies it using the Vampire Hunter, a pitiful excuse for a Town Killer that ONLY fits in NB (And that's a stretch. It should be gone, but NB will do.)
NO!

Someone help this man.

Help this man see that this role is designed purely to screw with the town.


I understand your point, and I think it cripples town by simply stealing 1 vote. By making town -2 in votes, you give majority to mafia or other evils too early. Mafia and Evil roles are overpowered because they don't have numbers. Town is only overpowered because of voting power. Forgive me, but I think -2 for town is too much of a sway that means town doesn't stand a chance.

But I'm just one guy. If you don't like my feedback, thats okay with me.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:55 am

JohnnyReklaw wrote:
BPsycho2 wrote:So, this man, Johnny Reklaw basically wants Politician to be neutral chaos and have to bounce back and forth trying to kill both Mafia and Town
No.

Or He wants it to be a role who instantly wins when both the Mayor and Godfather die?
No.

And he justifies it using the Vampire Hunter, a pitiful excuse for a Town Killer that ONLY fits in NB (And that's a stretch. It should be gone, but NB will do.)
NO!

Someone help this man.

Help this man see that this role is designed purely to screw with the town.


I understand your point, and I think it cripples town by simply stealing 1 vote. By making town -2 in votes, you give majority to mafia or other evils too early. Mafia and Evil roles are overpowered because they don't have numbers. Town is only overpowered because of voting power. Forgive me, but I think -2 for town is too much of a sway that means town doesn't stand a chance.

But I'm just one guy. If you don't like my feedback, thats okay with me.

Town is the most overpowered faction in the game, this would make them less overpowered.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby BPsycho2 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:27 pm

Slightly less overpowered.

It's one vote, or two if you count where it is being used.

Considering that there are only 3 Mafia and one NK in any given ranked game, which is what we're balancing for, I do think it's fair considering every other single vote is to Town, the Politician's original vote, and another one for town unless Mafia or NK can sway them. Oh, and the Any that is most likely to be town.

Scum has literally 6 votes, 7 at most, AND they're all against each other. Mafia has three, NB has one, NE has one, NK has one. Any MIGHT happen to have a scum vote. Town has all he rest of them. This doesn't even count if the Amnesiac just flat out becomes the first town role they see. That's ANOTHER town vote, AND they're now confirmed, so they're basically the Mayor. That's something considering that there might be an actual Mayor which increases Town's votes further. And Oh, what if NE is Executioner and since he's broken right now, He bargains with the town to lynch the lowly Transporter who basically only messes things up? Town doesn't gain a vote, BUT scum loses a vote. And what if NK is found out early as they usually are (not that it's a problem. uninformed minority, that kind of thing) well that's another scum vote gone.

Town has way more votes than any of us think in the end. taking away ONE. literally ONE and giving it to scum (who are fighting each other anyways) won't do anything but good.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby dafish1 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:45 pm

Hi I love the idea but I have one question. It may have already been asked so I'm sorry if it's a repeat. Say the Politician bribes an unrevealed mayor and the Mayor then reveals the next day while he was bribed. What would happen?

a) bribe gets cancelled and basically no one is bribed that day
b) Politician gets to control the 3 votes because the mayor was bribed before revealing
c) Politician gets the standard 1 extra vote and the mayor just can't vote
d) the mayor isn't allowed to reveal that day

Also can you make someone vote against him/herself?

(again sorry if anything is a repeat....not intentional)

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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby SnekTheSnek » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:58 pm

Great job, this should be added to town of salem! at first I thought it was a joke (sorry, but seeing a politician as a neutral EVIL was kinda ironic) but its great!
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby Mace8937 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:15 pm

dafish1 wrote:Hi I love the idea but I have one question. It may have already been asked so I'm sorry if it's a repeat. Say the Politician bribes an unrevealed mayor and the Mayor then reveals the next day while he was bribed. What would happen?

a) bribe gets cancelled and basically no one is bribed that day
b) Politician gets to control the 3 votes because the mayor was bribed before revealing
c) Politician gets the standard 1 extra vote and the mayor just can't vote
d) the mayor isn't allowed to reveal that day

Also can you make someone vote against him/herself?

(again sorry if anything is a repeat....not intentional)

your friendly neighborhood fish

a) No.
b) Would make this role more OP than the game needs.
c) Yes, precisely what would happen.
d) No.

Also, in the game's core mechanics, you can't vote for yourself, so do you think they would implement a role that defies a core mechanic? The bribing does not occur if you choose for the player to vote for themself.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby BPsycho2 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:18 pm

I asked a question about that earlier.

You said that if you make someone vote themself, the counter goes up but it doesn't say the voted thing.
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Re: Politician (Neutral Evil)

Postby dafish1 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:46 pm

Mace8937 wrote:
dafish1 wrote:Hi I love the idea but I have one question. It may have already been asked so I'm sorry if it's a repeat. Say the Politician bribes an unrevealed mayor and the Mayor then reveals the next day while he was bribed. What would happen?

a) bribe gets cancelled and basically no one is bribed that day
b) Politician gets to control the 3 votes because the mayor was bribed before revealing
c) Politician gets the standard 1 extra vote and the mayor just can't vote
d) the mayor isn't allowed to reveal that day

Also can you make someone vote against him/herself?

(again sorry if anything is a repeat....not intentional)

your friendly neighborhood fish

a) No.
b) Would make this role more OP than the game needs.
c) Yes, precisely what would happen.
d) No.

Also, in the game's core mechanics, you can't vote for yourself, so do you think they would implement a role that defies a core mechanic? The bribing does not occur if you choose for the player to vote for themself.



okey dokey thanks for clarifying and great job with this role (:
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