Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Old Role Ideas

Would you like to see this role in-game?

Yes!
82
85%
No (preferably explain why)
7
7%
I dont know yet.
6
6%
I dont understand the role.
1
1%
 
Total votes : 96

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby ShadowOfSkills » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:19 pm

Just heard about this one today, it looks amazing actually. Well, I heard about it after having a nigh identical idea, but not being sure how to work out some of the kinks. Looks like all the kinks are worked out right here.

As for investigative results, I actually have an idea. Since the necromancer is working with dead bodies, why not make their investigation results come up as Medium/Janitor/Necro? Not sure how that affects game balance, but I thought it made sense logically. While that does mean the Invest would have some leverage over them, Invests tend to be a major target for all anti-town anyways. While this means Necro will always be a bit suspicious, since medium is a role that nobody can really confirm, I think it places Necro right where they should be, as someone suspicious, but not necessarily a major target.

I personally think that the revived target of a Necro should be told who revived them; it makes it less likely that the revived target would accidentally kill the Necro. Which would be really bad for the Necro, and give them little motivation to perform their role. As for the revived target dying if the Necro dies, that gives the Necro a little more power too. As one of you pointed out, there's not much stopping the mafia from killing the Necro after the Necro revived one of their guys. Or any other role either. For the revived to die if the Necro dies, and the revived to immediately know the Necro upon being revived, I think is a good balance.

As for the investigator and sheriff results for the revived, I agree that it should likely be the same as their disguised role. After all, Necro would be seriously debuffed if any time someone got revived, the invest would just invest that person to find out if they are what they say they are. It also slightly debuffs investigator, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

As for the revived being able to be immediately outed by a medium, like the disguiser is able to be, that probably should be kept that way for balance reasons. Since a medium can't be confirmed, most games I've been in (admittedly it's mostly All Any), only half the time do people trust the medium regardless. And when they do, it usually takes a while before people listen to them. It's a role that's easy to claim, and impossible to prove.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:05 am

Not using logic here to balance things out. It should, honestly, go against Retributionist claim, to further nerf both the Necro and Retri.

Here is a tip - dont suggest things based on reality/real life logic. Its a game - and invest results should focus on balance rather then IRL logic.

Something else would be better with Medium/Janitor, considering Medium claim is rather weak. It could go with this, sure, but in that case, it would need to be Medium/Janitor/Necro/Retri and we are at four role result.

If anything, Id be opened to Janitor/Necro/Retri result, with Medium getting paired up with Witch and something else.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kikigiri » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:47 pm

I suggested this exact role a while ago. It's still a good idea, though.

I would change three things:

First, I'd remove the limit that if you die, your resurrected puppet will die as well. It just adds unnecessary complexity and would be frustrating for the person you resurrect.

Second, I'd make it so the Necromancer wins if (and only if) they person they resurrected wins, whether the Necromancer survives to the end or not. This serves a number of purposes. In general, I feel that "you must survive to win" mechanics are bad because death is often fairly random (the game encourages night killers to pick unpredictably), so it's better to give the Necromancer the ability to win with another faction even after death. It also eliminates the danger of Necromancers being kingmakers outside of their decision of who to resurrect -- if you don't have this rule, a Necromancer could bring back a Mafia member, then decide to side with the Werewolf later on. I don't feel that that's good for the game. Also, making it so your decision of who to resurrect means you're choosing a side seems more interesting to me.

(It'd also lead to some interesting situations. If you think the Town will suspect a Necromancer, you can resurrect a Jester and win like that.)

With these two things in place, I'd remove the one-shot night immunity. It'd be unnecessary if the Necromancer could win with whoever they resurrected even after dying.

Mroz4k wrote:If anything, Id be opened to Janitor/Necro/Retri result, with Medium getting paired up with Witch and something else.

Problem with that is that the Retri is unique, so both the Janitor and the Necro would have very little usable claimspace... having your Investigative result revealed would instantly let the Retri know you're evil (and if the Retri is dead, you're confirmed as evil.)

I'd just put Necro/Retri together on their own. It's not perfect, yeah (no Mafia result), but in the role list rearrangement thread the big problem was always a lack of Mafia roles anyway, so some results are going to have to lack them; and this would avoid hurting anyone else by shoehorning them into a spot with only the Retri as a town claim. (The Necro has to be paired with Retri, I think, because making Retris harder to prove is part of the point of the role.)
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby BPsycho2 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:11 pm

Kikigiri wrote:I suggested this exact role a while ago. It's still a good idea, though.

I would change three things:

First, I'd remove the limit that if you die, your resurrected puppet will die as well. It just adds unnecessary complexity and would be frustrating for the person you resurrect. Remember this fact. The Mafia wouldn't have to protect the Necromancer if this were true if his target didn't die with him. He's NOT a revived framer. He's just the Necromancer's puppet, whose purpose in life is to serve the Necromancer, and if he fails, he will perish.

Second, I'd make it so the Necromancer wins if (and only if) they person they resurrected wins, whether the Necromancer survives to the end or not. This serves a number of purposes. In general, I feel that "you must survive to win" mechanics are bad because death is often fairly random (the game encourages night killers to pick unpredictably), so it's better to give the Necromancer the ability to win with another faction even after death. It also eliminates the danger of Necromancers being kingmakers outside of their decision of who to resurrect -- if you don't have this rule, a Necromancer could bring back a Mafia member, then decide to side with the Werewolf later on. I don't feel that that's good for the game. Also, making it so your decision of who to resurrect means you're choosing a side seems more interesting to me. once again, The Necromancer isn't supposed to join the Mafia, he simply revives his puppet. He SHOULD join the Mafia, but he doesn't have to.

(It'd also lead to some interesting situations. If you think the Town will suspect a Necromancer, you can resurrect a Jester and win like that.)

With these two things in place, I'd remove the one-shot night immunity. It'd be unnecessary if the Necromancer could win with whoever they resurrected even after dying.

Mroz4k wrote:If anything, Id be opened to Janitor/Necro/Retri result, with Medium getting paired up with Witch and something else.

Problem with that is that the Retri is unique, so both the Janitor and the Necro would have very little usable claimspace... having your Investigative result revealed would instantly let the Retri know you're evil (and if the Retri is dead, you're confirmed as evil.)

I'd just put Necro/Retri together on their own. It's not perfect, yeah (no Mafia result), but in the role list rearrangement thread the big problem was always a lack of Mafia roles anyway, so some results are going to have to lack them; and this would avoid hurting anyone else by shoehorning them into a spot with only the Retri as a town claim. (The Necro has to be paired with Retri, I think, because making Retris harder to prove is part of the point of the role.)
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby DarthMagnus » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:47 pm

i like the IDEA, but there are flaws, 1. medium easily counters this 2. ret instantly knows he's evil, and probably will try to get the evil resurrected role lynched, and then will be confirmed, necro can't do this because then when the newly revived town gets lynched, HE gets lynched, so having a ret or medium on town gets necro rekted. 3. what if WW dies, then someone is resurrected and then WW starts killing again, then town knows who WW is
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:29 am

Bpsycho already answered the comments for me.

Last thing I want to touch on is that Janitor/Retri/Necro comment - whats so wrong about this? Both Necro and Ret are Unique roles, so they claimspace is equally bad for both of them. And as far as Janitor goes, thats the point of making it weaker... its just about the most powerful of lower leveled Mafia, so nerfing it is a good thing.

@DarthMagnus

1. Thats the point. How exactly is that a bad thing? Medium needs to be more useful, and its not easily provable role.
Also, the "good dead person" gets disguised as "scum dead person" so the Medium wouldnt most likely believe their claims, as it could easily just be the real Mafia, trying to set up the ressed Townie for lynching...
2. Actually, yea, Ret does know this... but he cannot prove it. As much as the Necro cant prove he is Retributionist. So it wouldnt be an instant lynch, but it would be a trial and who can manipulate each other better, wins.
Its not a proven thing.
3.Naturally.

So dont ress Werewolf. Or, ress him by the end of the game when others lose their majority.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby BPsycho2 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:08 pm

I'd actually like it if the Necromancer spoke to his puppet and was able to overwrite his target OVER the Godfather. Let's say the Mafioso is executed, force-disguised, and revived as a Medium. Perfect, right?

In this instance, I think the necromancer should be IN the Mafia, and appear to be so when visited by the Sheriff (would slightly encourage reviving NKs)

And if they're a Mafioso, the Necromancer overrides the godfather

Also, Should the necromancer be able to override all night actions? He IS the master.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:20 pm

In this case, you could consider the lore of "Necromancer" to not be an evil wizard who creates zombies to do his bidding, but and evil wizard who brings other thugs back to life, by putting a soul of an evil person into a dead body of a good person.

Thats the way I am looking at it.

Id rather not give Necro ability to interact with the person they ressurected, but I would be willing to consider Necro/necroed target night chat if people think that would be a good idea... so I am opened to suggestions on that.
I think to have Necro boss around the person they ressed and even overthrow Godfather commands is stretching it - it could easily end up with Necro screwing the Mafia around with poor choices becasue he is not part of the allignment. And honestly, I dont really see how it could be beneficial to Necro, other then stopping them from killing him... which already is discouraged because the ressed target dies if the Necro dies.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby BPsycho2 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:47 pm

Perhaps the override is OP. here's some more suggestions.

Join night chat, but appear Mafia, if resurrected Mafia.

Create chat with NK puppet.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:56 pm

Id rather keep the night chat to ressed target + Necro only.

Again, same problem with the Mafia chat - Necro is not neccesary to join Mafia after he resses Mafia. He could ress Mafia just to help remove the Town for NK, letting NK deal with the Mafia later on.

We already have chats that colide together, so I dont think adding another one would be too bad.

Necro/ressed target chat could be perform in a similar manner Seances work, really - with the ressed target knowing who the Necro is, obviously.

Or, if there is a Chat, it might be better if the target doesnt know who ressed them, because Necro can just freely tell him on his own.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby BPsycho2 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:26 am

Mroz4k wrote:Id rather keep the night chat to ressed target + Necro only.

Again, same problem with the Mafia chat - Necro is not neccesary to join Mafia after he resses Mafia. He could ress Mafia just to help remove the Town for NK, letting NK deal with the Mafia later on. it's not 100% necessary, but yes. He should join the Mafia chat in my opinion, but to discourage every necromancer reviving Mafia, the sheriff should see him as Mafia if he does that

We already have chats that colide together, so I dont think adding another one would be too bad.

Necro/ressed target chat could be perform in a similar manner Seances work, really - with the ressed target knowing who the Necro is, obviously.

Or, if there is a Chat, it might be better if the target doesnt know who ressed them, because Necro can just freely tell him on his own.
That could mean a problem. Someone might get revived, then lynch their own Necromancer,not looking at the box.

There's really no downside to saying "you were revived by (name)" because it's not like a Retributionist who would be a confirmed townie if that happened.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:46 am

And, at the same time, if Necro wishes to work against Mafia despite ressing a Mafia member, it could be problem if they knew who he is.

Thats why I think it would be better to not tell the name. Sure, there is a risk of hanging your own Necro... but honestly, thats actually not a bad thing... it nerfs the role a bit, which seems like a good thing to me. But it does give ability to Necro to decide on his own if he wants to help the faction he ressed or not - afterall, he might have used his ability to ress Mafia member just because there was only Mafia member dead in the graveyard.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby TheScyle » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:40 am

I disagree with the outcome if both a retri and a necromancer would revive the same target.

Rather would I expect the following to happen:

The Necromancers ability takes priority. He revives the evil-doer in the town members body.
The Retributionists ability comes second. He targeted the town member, who is now disguised as an evil doer. He still revives him.

Both targets are being revived, with their bodies being exchanged. This would make it more possible to be actually implemented in the game, as it, right now, has no timer that checks when you click on a box, but only if it is checked at the end of the night.

Of course this method would result in an instant lynch of the newly revived evil doer (or of the town member, if the players are very new to the game and havent realised what has just happened)
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby JazzMusicStops » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:06 am

Didn't you say somewhere that Ret and Necro would be mutually exclusive, Mroz?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:54 am

JammySplodge wrote:Didn't you say somewhere that Ret and Necro would be mutually exclusive, Mroz?


The one who clicks the night action first will be the one who gets the priority. They are basically the same role, just different allignment and a bit different mechanic. It follows the universal rule of Two Transporters - the first to click is the first to use ability. The second one will waste his charge, I think thats the best way to go about it.

TheScyle wrote:I disagree with the outcome if both a retri and a necromancer would revive the same target.

Rather would I expect the following to happen:

The Necromancers ability takes priority. He revives the evil-doer in the town members body.
The Retributionists ability comes second. He targeted the town member, who is now disguised as an evil doer. He still revives him.

Both targets are being revived, with their bodies being exchanged. This would make it more possible to be actually implemented in the game, as it, right now, has no timer that checks when you click on a box, but only if it is checked at the end of the night.

Of course this method would result in an instant lynch of the newly revived evil doer (or of the town member, if the players are very new to the game and havent realised what has just happened)


Which means a Mafia member is now clearly ressurected.

Everyone who is not a complete moron will immidiatedly realize that the person who was "Town" is actually Mafia, because Necro ress is first, and the one who looks like "Mafia" is actualy a Town, because Retri resses second.

No, that would be a bad idea - it would completedly, immidiatedly gave away who the necro ressed person is and who was ressed by Retri.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Budderspartan75 » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:36 pm

this idea seems interesting.. an evil retributionist would be a pretty good counter to a regular retri
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby simabean » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:25 pm

This is an amazing idea, but I think puppet should have to serve necromancer (making an undead minion role?)
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:08 pm

simabean wrote:This is an amazing idea, but I think puppet should have to serve necromancer (making an undead minion role?)


Lets not do that. There really is no point to change roles over with an ability - Vampires are already bad enough already.

I have no problem with a Minion role, for as long as its not related to the Necromancer one. Roles depending on other roles are also rather bad - Mafia being an allignment of its own is an exception to that.

Nah, I think the role should stay as is - but the link to the life of Necromancer is neccesary. In a way, the ressurected Minion cannot win without his master (unless Mafia, I guess, but in that case, they win even if they are dead), but Necromancer has a choice who to side up with.

Its basically a different sort of a Witch role - it doesnt control their puppets directly, but moreless makes them dependent on him.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kikigiri » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:04 pm

If they're considering removing Disguiser because of concerns over hard-to-untangle reports, I'd assume this suggestion has no chance, unfortunately.
Please put the Witch in Coven mode. I miss it. :-(
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby simabean » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:22 pm

Simple solution: Make reports before the disguise apply to the original, and post reports apply to the disguiser.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby BPsycho2 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:43 pm

That's what we've been talking about.

It is very simple. Sad Disguiser is going away.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Mon May 02, 2016 4:16 am

simabean wrote:Simple solution: Make reports before the disguise apply to the original, and post reports apply to the disguiser.


Yea, that would also work, at least theoretically. Not sure if its possible development-wise, though.

There are actually bunch of ways to deal with that, thing is, its the Trials that need fixing, not the Disguiser.

Lets hope Devs hear out that argument.

Anyways, I am looking for some more feedback on this:

What do you guys suggest for Achievements for this role? (Except for the usual "win as Necromancer X times")
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Jerme » Mon May 02, 2016 4:31 am

"The new Leader" or "Mistake" - revive someone disguised as the Mayor.
"Something's odd" - Revive a Werewolf.
"Traitor" - Revive someone and win with an other faction.
"I win" - Replace the same townie the Retributionist wanted to revive.
"Jesus" - revive someone disguised as the Retributionist.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Mon May 02, 2016 6:23 am

Jerme wrote:"The new Leader" or "Mistake" - revive someone disguised as the Mayor.
"Something's odd" - Revive a Werewolf.
"Traitor" - Revive someone and win with an other faction.
"I win" - Replace the same townie the Retributionist wanted to revive.
"Jesus" - revive someone disguised as the Retributionist.


hehehe, I like those! :D

What about reviving Consigliere as Investigator, and Consort as Escort? Not sure what the names would be, though.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Jerme » Mon May 02, 2016 6:25 am

"There is no difference" - Revive a Consort as an Escort.
"Death has sharpened their eyes" - Revive a Consigliere as an Investigator.
Visit my role suggestions and give me feedback: http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=28949

I tend to write small stories into my will and dislike Forgers and Janitors for removing them.

If you see a Grim Reaper called 'Zoroark', know that you might have encountered me.

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