Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

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Yes!
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85%
No (preferably explain why)
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I dont know yet.
6
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I dont understand the role.
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Total votes : 96

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby ZeEngie » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:38 pm

/support

I like the idea
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby oliy » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:48 am

I don't understand why if you die, the resurrected person dies.
Also, this has the same issue with Disguiser, IMMEDIATELY outed by a Medium or maybe Ret, and this one is permanent. Saying an evil person lying after a revive doesn't help, because the next revive will prove it false after the person is lynched. I'm in a rush, but do the Investigator results change for the person? If so, revived person is dead.
Finally, it in no way can save itself from being killed at night, and this has to see the endgame. At least Witch can control killers, and people are still giving it vests.
The color is dull too.

I will second this in the role idea tourney if some of these issues are fixed.

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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:43 pm

No, thanks, I dont want your second since most of what you said is not really an issue.

Starting from the end: Color - bone-like color seems appropriate, plus is still not taken as a color yet. Most of other colors, especially the darker ones are all taken by different roles - and its better if the roles dont have similar color to an existing color because people are color blind. Fact that its bright does not matter, the in-game background uses different colors anyways so it doesnt matter what color is used this way. I dont see a reason to change the color - better dull but distinguished from other colors. Dont expect that a person who doesnt know anyone color blind would understand why.

It cant save itself in the night, correct, but neither can Jester. Or the Witch. Whenever Witch can control killers is not an argument. Even then, the Witch can still die. No role is completedly safe, ever. The idea behind this is that you dont want to kill this role as Evil because its very convinient for Evil roles. It can bring back dead evil roles. However, if it was immune to them, you cant harm the Necromancer, either. You should be able to. If Necro is supporting the other allignment against you, you should be able to stop them.
The strategy for this is to get attached to an evil allignment, avoid getting found or attacked while your newly gained allignment alliance wins.
Though I can see the "win if your new allignment wins, despite death" working as well. Opinions on that, anyone???

Again with the dumb comment on Medium and Ret outing it. You still dont get it. Okay, again - Medium is not 100% proveable role. In fact, its pretty difficult to confirm. And anyone can fake it, easily. That said, a word from that kind of role holds weaker state by default. But still, yes, Medium "can" out them. Same with Disguiser. BUT, it could be just person lying... you never know.
Concerning your Ret statement - okay, so you have two ressurections. Which one is Necro and which one is Ret? You dont know. Obviously one of them is evil but you dont know which one. In this situation, your ressed person is going to die... but at least they are wasting the time and can get potentionally a Town member hung up. Besides, the whole point is that Retributionists and Mediums are no longer trusted so much. Because this role is a possibility, its possible for people to lie about being Mediums or Retributionists and get away with it.

You still assume they will be 100% confirmed evil. But they are not. The existence of these roles make them less trustworthy.

Good point on the Investigator results, I suppose. It shows a Townie person getting ressurected in the graveyard. Hiding its true results is pretty powerfull buff, not hiding them is quite a nerf. So compromise. Id be fine with Investigator results being the results for the "ressed" Town role, as a means of nerfing the Investigator. At the same time, Sheriff should see through the deception and see the allignment of the ressed person for what they are.

Finally, why does the ressurected person die if Necro dies? Now this one is obvious. To prevent the people who got supported by Necro to get rid of him right away. Afterall, the ressed person learns who the Necro is upon ressurection. And Necro attains their winning role conditions - so they have to work together. If this ability was not in place, what stops the Mafia from killing off Necro after he resses the Consort?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby DerpeZ » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:30 pm

/support
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby oliy » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:47 pm

TBH I don't care for the color. It looks kind of like the Cleaned role White but I made a role that's white so :\
People are arguing for Witch to have protection, and it's implemented in FM, so it would be the right thing to do. As for Jester, I doubt someone would want to attack someone that scummy. Also, it doesn't need to survive, it can last a day or two and win.
Question: Do the revived people flip their real or fake role when they die?
That would help my response.
That gives a Sheriff buff and Investigator nerf somewhat, Godfather tho, but it's definitely in the right direction, might be hard to code though but IDK
I recalled that statement in my head within an hour of making that post :\

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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:25 am

Obviously, if they die, they flip the real role. I thought thats kind of obvious. So yes, its in Necro´s best interest to make sure his ressed puppet doesnt die, especially if he claimed to be the Ret. But if they didnt claim Ret, its not that big of a deal.

If Witch gets the protection, so should the Necromancer, as you said they both have to live till the end of the game. I think that would be fair, considering they are on their own and not part of the biggest allignment like Ret. However it would be a one-time immunity, the shield ability.

I guess I could have included that into the OP already, and in a way, I wanted to, but for some reason I didnt. So thanks for reminding me.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kmenx » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:05 pm

Mroz4k wrote:Concerning your Ret statement - okay, so you have two ressurections. Which one is Necro and which one is Ret? You dont know. Obviously one of them is evil but you dont know which one. In this situation, your ressed person is going to die... but at least they are wasting the time and can get potentionally a Town member hung up. Besides, the whole point is that Retributionists and Mediums are no longer trusted so much. Because this role is a possibility, its possible for people to lie about being Mediums or Retributionists and get away with it.


You are forgetting about Jailor Mayor Spy trio Because necro s revived target Can not pass a spy test/Can t reveal/Can t jail

As an example:
N1:Invest and Consig dies
N2:Necro revives consig as invest (Which is a good thing for scum right ?) and a Mayor dies
N3:Mayor gets revived by the real retri
D4:Mayor revals and lynches the consig


This applies for Jailor and Spy too (Only costs jailor an execute because people will less likely to believe a "revived" jailor at day)

Yeah you are right about it nerfing medium but it won t nerf the retri s power it will only limit the usage of the retri s power
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby oliy » Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:44 pm

Kmenx wrote:
Mroz4k wrote:Concerning your Ret statement - okay, so you have two ressurections. Which one is Necro and which one is Ret? You dont know. Obviously one of them is evil but you dont know which one. In this situation, your ressed person is going to die... but at least they are wasting the time and can get potentionally a Town member hung up. Besides, the whole point is that Retributionists and Mediums are no longer trusted so much. Because this role is a possibility, its possible for people to lie about being Mediums or Retributionists and get away with it.


You are forgetting about Jailor Mayor Spy trio Because necro s revived target Can not pass a spy test/Can t reveal/Can t jail

As an example:
N1:Invest and Consig dies
N2:Necro revives consig as invest (Which is a good thing for scum right ?) and a Mayor dies
N3:Mayor gets revived by the real retri
D4:Mayor revals and lynches the consig


This applies for Jailor and Spy too (Only costs jailor an execute because people will less likely to believe a "revived" jailor at day)

Yeah you are right about it nerfing medium but it won t nerf the retri s power it will only limit the usage of the retri s power

Well obviously for those, but a Mafia role should hear whispers anyways to keep Spy.
Or it could revive in those names and make fakeclaims or reasons not to reveal.

Also, Mroz, will people be notified of a role switch when they die?

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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:58 am

oliy wrote:Also, Mroz, will people be notified of a role switch when they die?

The person who gets ressurected will be notified for sure. They will also learn the name of their ressurector, and the name of their new body.

As far as the person who was originally Town, now appearing as Evil - I dont think its neccesary to notify them, or that it makes little difference. If they are talking, they will immidiatedly notice that they appear as someone different. So I am for notifying others about this switch, it doesnt really make much difference.

@Kmenx - and is that such a bad thing? I mean, the idea that we ress an Evil role turns the game around quite a bit. It brings the evil roles to power by three times - aka Necro and the ressed target both join the evil forces - so if the ressed role is vulnerable to Jailor/Mayor/Spy, then so be it. Besides, its not impossible to fake the Jailor... heck, you could say you jailed the Necro and he would confirm it. People who request jailing for "confirmation" are already pretty susp to begin with, out of being evil... I wouldnt do that as a Jailor, anyways... at most you can always stall for time which is useful for Mafia as well.

I dont see how those radical scenarios are a bad thing. Ressed evil role is powerful buff in itself.

Besides, Im all up for debuffing Mayor and Spy, anyways. Im working on a suggestion with both of those intergrated.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Candela » Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:00 am

Sounds awesome
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kmenx » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:08 pm

@Mroz I gave that example for the "How can you confirm a revived person as town sentence ?" Real retri will just revive Jailor/Mayor/Spy/Transporter to counter Necro
Necro won t be a counter to retri Retri will be a counter to necro

However i am not saying this role is terrible it is a very good role But it can t revive a neutral role(If you do they are likely a dead man walking) and it will not likely win with a NK

(P.S:You can t nerf the mayor you can only nerf the whispers Mayor is a quick momentum builder/an extra vote for the town That s the entire role)
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:43 am

Kmenx wrote:@Mroz I gave that example for the "How can you confirm a revived person as town sentence ?" Real retri will just revive Jailor/Mayor/Spy/Transporter to counter Necro
Necro won t be a counter to retri Retri will be a counter to necro

However i am not saying this role is terrible it is a very good role But it can t revive a neutral role(If you do they are likely a dead man walking) and it will not likely win with a NK

(P.S:You can t nerf the mayor you can only nerf the whispers Mayor is a quick momentum builder/an extra vote for the town That s the entire role)


Yes, you can nerf Mayor. But thats for some other time, and other thread.

And I dissagree with your statement - Retri wont counter Necro, if anything, they will counter each other - I mean, thats what "counter" aka "opposite" means...
In fact, Retris rarely wait for these powerroles to ress them - unless they get killed early on. I dont think that would change. Besides, those roles being confirmable is a problem that needs solving as well, eventually.
I dont think thats a very valid argument, but its considerable I suppose.

If it couldnt ress Neutral roles, it would be a Mafia only role. Which is bad. No, it should be able to ress Neutrals - and afterwards, it gets their win-conditions. Neutral Killings, Vampires and Witch should be ressurectable too - the Necro would just get the same win conditions. Neutral Benigns and Jester/Executioner shouldnt be ressurectable, cause they can work with Town, and thats what we dont want.

In a late-game, ressing NK could be quite a game-changer, but it requires for Necro to wait long and risk dying before ressing, which increases his survivability changes.

Also, it gives Necro a chance to work for his win in case Mafia is dominating, and havent lost a single member yet but the game is going from mid-game to end-game. So its a good thing it can ress Neutral.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby RetralMega » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:46 am

Too OP. It definitely shouldn't tell the revived player who revived them.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:33 pm

RetralMega wrote:Too OP. It definitely shouldn't tell the revived player who revived them.


That would break purpose - thats that Necro and its ressed target ought to work together.

They cant kill the Necro... because that means the ressed person dies as well. And if it didnt tell the ressed player who ressed them, they could accidentaly kill the Necro either way... meaning that if it didnt tell them who ressed them, the role power will be kind of contraproductive.

There is a reason for the "Necro dies = ressed person dies as well"... to encourage them to keep Necro alive.

Which, btw, could be pretty good nerf to Retributionist... if Retributionist dies, the ressed player dies as well...
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby murat1996 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:54 pm

Mroz4k wrote:
RetralMega wrote:Too OP. It definitely shouldn't tell the revived player who revived them.


That would break purpose - thats that Necro and its ressed target ought to work together.

They cant kill the Necro... because that means the ressed person dies as well. And if it didnt tell the ressed player who ressed them, they could accidentaly kill the Necro either way... meaning that if it didnt tell them who ressed them, the role power will be kind of contraproductive.

There is a reason for the "Necro dies = ressed person dies as well"... to encourage them to keep Necro alive.

Which, btw, could be pretty good nerf to Retributionist... if Retributionist dies, the ressed player dies as well...


Problem is that ret sometimes tends to die the SAME night they ressed a townie, so I'm not sure at that front.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:17 pm

murat1996 wrote:
Mroz4k wrote:That would break purpose - thats that Necro and its ressed target ought to work together.

They cant kill the Necro... because that means the ressed person dies as well. And if it didnt tell the ressed player who ressed them, they could accidentaly kill the Necro either way... meaning that if it didnt tell them who ressed them, the role power will be kind of contraproductive.

There is a reason for the "Necro dies = ressed person dies as well"... to encourage them to keep Necro alive.

Which, btw, could be pretty good nerf to Retributionist... if Retributionist dies, the ressed player dies as well...


Problem is that ret sometimes tends to die the SAME night they ressed a townie, so I'm not sure at that front.


Dont see how thats a bad thing. Should have ressed before, or been more subtle about it. It would encourage people to try to stay hidden as best as they can as a Retri, because their death would render their ability useless. And its still very powerful because it brings a dead person back, along with all the info in the dead chat etc.
It wouldnt be a bad thing to give Retris incensive to try to stay alive after using their ability instead of just turning themselves into bait for kills with nothing more then just a simple vote.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby PokemonKidRyan » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:35 pm

Mroz4k wrote:
murat1996 wrote:
Mroz4k wrote:That would break purpose - thats that Necro and its ressed target ought to work together.

They cant kill the Necro... because that means the ressed person dies as well. And if it didnt tell the ressed player who ressed them, they could accidentaly kill the Necro either way... meaning that if it didnt tell them who ressed them, the role power will be kind of contraproductive.

There is a reason for the "Necro dies = ressed person dies as well"... to encourage them to keep Necro alive.

Which, btw, could be pretty good nerf to Retributionist... if Retributionist dies, the ressed player dies as well...


Problem is that ret sometimes tends to die the SAME night they ressed a townie, so I'm not sure at that front.


Dont see how thats a bad thing. Should have ressed before, or been more subtle about it. It would encourage people to try to stay hidden as best as they can as a Retri, because their death would render their ability useless. And its still very powerful because it brings a dead person back, along with all the info in the dead chat etc.
It wouldnt be a bad thing to give Retris incentive to try to stay alive after using their ability instead of just turning themselves into bait for kills with nothing more then just a simple vote.

I fully agree
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby murat1996 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:40 pm

Does the Necromancer die when the reader target dies, or is it just when the Necromancer dies the reader target dies too?
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:53 am

murat1996 wrote:Does the Necromancer die when the reader target dies, or is it just when the Necromancer dies the reader target dies too?


Only if the Necromancer dies, then the ressed target dies as well.

If only the ressed target dies, Necromancer is still living. And he can still easily win, assuming the Town loses the game, since his wincon are the same as Witch.

___________
I remember someone also asked why the Necromancer is just not added onto Mafia chat once he ressurects Mafia. I am unsure whether this was answered. It couldnt be like that, because even if he resses Mafia member, he still can win with the Neutral Killing. Witch wincons - he is not obligated to work with their ressed targets faction, but that faction is responsible for Necromancer, since Necromancer needs to stay alive for the evil role that was ressed needs to stay alive.

Finally, I think that ressed target should not be able to target the Necromancer - to blackmail them, or even attack them. That said, if lets say a Framer is ressed, than Mafioso is still able to attack the ressed Necromancer.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby mdel » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:04 pm

Totally /Support !! it's an excellent idea. It will be a little troll, but in Town of Salem everything can happen.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:06 pm

I'm not really sure how I feel about an evil retributionist.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:09 pm

Kirize12 wrote:I'm not really sure how I feel about an evil retributionist.


Why not?

If it discredits both the Retributionist and revived person confirmability, whats bad about it?

The only thing I see is that it will have less of an impact on the game then, lets say, a Witch. But more impact then an Executioner (unless we assume Exe is in kingmaker scenario)
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:13 pm

Mroz4k wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:I'm not really sure how I feel about an evil retributionist.


Why not?

If it discredits both the Retributionist and revived person confirmability, whats bad about it?

The only thing I see is that it will have less of an impact on the game then, lets say, a Witch. But more impact then an Executioner (unless we assume Exe is in kingmaker scenario)

That's one of the points though. I know Retributionist and revived person's confirmability is not fun, but I feel like this role was created only to nerf them. And while it has more use than making it non-confirmed, it feels like a Firefighter situation, which isn't fun either. And while this role isn't as bad as Firefighter or Vampire Hunter, as a matter of fact it's perfectly balanced without a ret and doesn't need one, I just feel like there's better ways to nerf Retributionist than making a role to counter it. (._. )

While there's nothing wrong with it in theory, it just feels kinda weird to me.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:32 am

Its main function is not to nerf Retributionist, its to create concurention to it. Right now, ressurecting is 100% Townie thing. With this, the mechanic will be shared, it can go either way.

Im still up for additional nerfs for the Retributionist, in fact, I would like to see Retri work the same way this Necromancer does (with death of Retri, the ressurected target dies as well), but this role´s main purpose is to be able to balance the game out a bit better. Evil roles are few in numbers - and early disasters can pretty much wipe them out. Now if two Mafia roles die on night one to a Veteran, and Mafia was three person team to begin with, this role can put Mafia back into the bussiness - by ressing 33% of its team back to life. So, in a way, this is much more significant ress then a Retri would be, (disregarding fact Retri ressed targets are instantly confirmed, which improves its significance for Town drastically).

Not only it disproves Retributionist, it also gives scum oppurtunity to recover from very early bad luck.
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Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby ShadowOfSkills » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:19 pm

Just heard about this one today, it looks amazing actually. Well, I heard about it after having a nigh identical idea, but not being sure how to work out some of the kinks. Looks like all the kinks are worked out right here.

As for investigative results, I actually have an idea. Since the necromancer is working with dead bodies, why not make their investigation results come up as Medium/Janitor/Necro? Not sure how that affects game balance, but I thought it made sense logically. While that does mean the Invest would have some leverage over them, Invests tend to be a major target for all anti-town anyways. While this means Necro will always be a bit suspicious, since medium is a role that nobody can really confirm, I think it places Necro right where they should be, as someone suspicious, but not necessarily a major target.

I personally think that the revived target of a Necro should be told who revived them; it makes it less likely that the revived target would accidentally kill the Necro. Which would be really bad for the Necro, and give them little motivation to perform their role. As for the revived target dying if the Necro dies, that gives the Necro a little more power too. As one of you pointed out, there's not much stopping the mafia from killing the Necro after the Necro revived one of their guys. Or any other role either. For the revived to die if the Necro dies, and the revived to immediately know the Necro upon being revived, I think is a good balance.

As for the investigator and sheriff results for the revived, I agree that it should likely be the same as their disguised role. After all, Necro would be seriously debuffed if any time someone got revived, the invest would just invest that person to find out if they are what they say they are. It also slightly debuffs investigator, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

As for the revived being able to be immediately outed by a medium, like the disguiser is able to be, that probably should be kept that way for balance reasons. Since a medium can't be confirmed, most games I've been in (admittedly it's mostly All Any), only half the time do people trust the medium regardless. And when they do, it usually takes a while before people listen to them. It's a role that's easy to claim, and impossible to prove.
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