Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Old Role Ideas

Would you like to see this role in-game?

Yes!
82
85%
No (preferably explain why)
7
7%
I dont know yet.
6
6%
I dont understand the role.
1
1%
 
Total votes : 96

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:12 am

CAPTAINPHASMA123 wrote:I think that both Retributionist and Necromancer shouldn't be in the same game because if 2 dead people were revived, town will obviously know that there is a Necromancer and they would lynch the resurrected players.

How is that a problem?
Tow can lznch town this way, and in the very end, they would becwasting a lynch. It still benefits the evil roles a lot. I see your point but i dont think its problem.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby CAPTAINPHASMA123 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:16 am

Mroz4k wrote:
CAPTAINPHASMA123 wrote:I think that both Retributionist and Necromancer shouldn't be in the same game because if 2 dead people were revived, town will obviously know that there is a Necromancer and they would lynch the resurrected players.

How is that a problem?
Tow can lznch town this way, and in the very end, they would becwasting a lynch. It still benefits the evil roles a lot. I see your point but i dont think its problem.

Both roles are useless if they are in the same game because the resurrected players will be lynched. That's why there should only be 1 role that revives players in the game.
╰( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° )つ──☆*:・゚ pew pew



FM Record 3-2-0
Spoiler: 10B (SP) - Win (Citizen)
CFM17 - Loss (Higuain)
10C (MC) - Loss (Tracker)
NFM23 - Win (Transporter)
SFM19 - Win (Rich Demon)

Check out my Avvelenatore role here!
Spoiler: Image
User avatar
CAPTAINPHASMA123
Mafioso
Mafioso
 
Posts: 1423
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:26 am

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby BPsycho2 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:32 am

It's not like retri and necro can ONLY spawn in with each other

Sometimes the Retributionist is alone, but just the necromancer existing casts doubt on the claim.

I still think it should be Retri/Med/Necro/Jan because if the town discovers that the puppet is evil, then the "ret" must be evil, so that gives necro a claim that is better than nothing, but as always, it comes with a downside. Janitor.

This also supports the rare time when a janitor cleans a ret as he revives, then claims ret and coasts to victory.
I returned and I saw the light return to my eyes.

Image
User avatar
BPsycho2
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1973
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:33 am

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby factoftheday » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:40 pm

here is my Idea make the necromancer revive anyone into a zombie.

1)Anyone who visits the zombie is attacked
2)witch/neromancer can control the zombie to attack who ever.
factoftheday
Escort
Escort
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby JazzMusicStops » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:43 pm

factoftheday wrote:here is my Idea make the necromancer revive anyone into a zombie.

1)Anyone who visits the zombie is attacked
2)witch/neromancer can control the zombie to attack who ever.

This version works much better
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

User avatar
JazzMusicStops
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 5453
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:06 am
Location: Mr Johnson's Wild Ride (GMT)

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:09 pm

factoftheday wrote:here is my Idea make the necromancer revive anyone into a zombie.

1)Anyone who visits the zombie is attacked
2)witch/neromancer can control the zombie to attack who ever.

So, basically, it would just create a Serial Killer.

Yea, that wouldnt work well. At all.

Neutral Evil roles shouldnt be able to just murder people at whim - that puts them into more of a Neutral Killing allignment, if Evils were to kill people, they would influence the game much more, making the game a lot more scum favoured.

This would not be a good idea. Its better if its a role that can have a single, but major effect on the game to doubt the Retri and its power.

CAPTAINPHASMA123 wrote:
Mroz4k wrote:
CAPTAINPHASMA123 wrote:I think that both Retributionist and Necromancer shouldn't be in the same game because if 2 dead people were revived, town will obviously know that there is a Necromancer and they would lynch the resurrected players.

How is that a problem?
Tow can lznch town this way, and in the very end, they would becwasting a lynch. It still benefits the evil roles a lot. I see your point but i dont think its problem.

Both roles are useless if they are in the same game because the resurrected players will be lynched. That's why there should only be 1 role that revives players in the game.


If thats the meta, then so what? Retri resses wouldnt be so powerful anymore. It would encourage both roles to wait later in the game to start ressing, when people think twice if they can afford to policy lynch the ressed player...

I dont think it would be so drastical as you suggest - it would still be more likely Retri then Necro, but the existence of Necro would be casting doubt on any Retri claims, and thats a damn good thing.

People wouldnt just lynch ressed targets to be certain. That doesnt sound very smart... plus, who would want to risk a potentionally ressed Jailor? Wouldnt be as drastical as you think.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby 314dragon » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:37 pm

I actually made a role of this and didn't know that it was already an idea.
Image
User avatar
314dragon
Amnesiac
Amnesiac
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:38 am

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby ElderSivart » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:05 pm

The biggest problem I can see is that it's essentially hard-countered by the Medium.
A player who was force-disguised can just say "I was not revived. [Player] was, and he's evil."
ElderSivart
Vigilante
Vigilante
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:55 pm
Location: Alrest

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:30 pm

ElderSivart wrote:The biggest problem I can see is that it's essentially hard-countered by the Medium.
A player who was force-disguised can just say "I was not revived. [Player] was, and he's evil."

Medium can't often be trusted.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8818
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:21 am

ElderSivart wrote:The biggest problem I can see is that it's essentially hard-countered by the Medium.
A player who was force-disguised can just say "I was not revived. [Player] was, and he's evil."


The same kind of person would appear as dead evil role in the graveyard (the Necromancer would force-swap their identities).

So now you have an evil dead role claiming to the Medium that they were not in fact ressurected. Would you believe them as Medium? Also, would you believe such a claim to Medium? This is hardly a hard-counter.

It basically opens up a meta for dead scum to claim they were force ressurected, effectively putting distrust into ressurected people.

Dont see this as a weakness, more like a meta feature.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:12 pm

I'm not fond of evil rets in general. Necromancer is fairly weak as its revived target must be revived into a good claim and what kind of retri revives the sheriff? It would be all town protectives and I don't think that's so good. It doesn't really have a way to confirm itself to the evils and doomed retri to be unclaimable forever.
I have become what i despise, a man who despises himself.

Check out my role suggestions
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=45162
the psychaiatrist
Do you also want a more balanched and competetitive ranked mode in patch 1.6? See my ranked suggestions
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48199

How would a new investigator list with new roles look?
randomguyhavingfun
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1763
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:24 am
Location: ELO HELL

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Michael22omega » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:04 am

randomguyhavingfun wrote:I'm not fond of evil rets in general. Necromancer is fairly weak as its revived target must be revived into a good claim and what kind of retri revives the sheriff? It would be all town protectives and I don't think that's so good. It doesn't really have a way to confirm itself to the evils and doomed retri to be unclaimable forever.

What about whisper to the target after resisting i resist you? :lol: i mean like common sense what every retri does now
Now if you revive mafioso disguised into BodyGuard what is the problem? the mafioso now has one target that whisper protect me that he won't kill and he can kill others freely
Also i don't think it's unbalanced as he can only revive one target
i /support this role
User avatar
Michael22omega
Doctor
Doctor
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kikigiri » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:28 pm

randomguyhavingfun wrote:I'm not fond of evil rets in general. Necromancer is fairly weak as its revived target must be revived into a good claim and what kind of retri revives the sheriff? It would be all town protectives and I don't think that's so good. It doesn't really have a way to confirm itself to the evils and doomed retri to be unclaimable forever.
Dooming Retri to be unclaimable forever is the entire point. The problem is that currently Retributionists are too easy to confirm, and the person they confirm is automatically confirmed - both those things are too powerful and, together, they make the Retri overpowered.

A Necromancer or "evil retributionist" of some sort would solve that. The necromancer should be reasonably fun to play, or at least not unfun, but they don't have to be hugely powerful, that's not the point. The main reason the game needs this role is to undermine Retributionists a bit.

I had an alternative idea, though. Instead of disguising your revived target as someone specific, make it so both the Retributionist and the Necromancer give the revived target a new random name from those currently unused in the game (that is, one of the random names people get when they don't put one in), and don't reveal who was revived until the revived person dies (so they're not removed from the graveyard.) Their appearance, cosmetics, number, and position are taken from a random dead person. (The randomness doesn't matter because it has no impact on the game; it's just that they need a name, appearance and position that doesn't give away who they really are.)

This would remove the need for the Necromancer to have a second target to use as the disguise. It would also fix the disguiser-like problems, which (whether we agree with it or not) the devs have made clear they're hating out of the game.
Please put the Witch in Coven mode. I miss it. :-(
User avatar
Kikigiri
Jailor
Jailor
 
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:46 pm

Honestly I can see Ret balances going one of two ways:
•Town Power, the whole point of which is to be a town leader and confirmable so hardcounter doesn't work
•Nerfed down to Medium and Escort level by making it a town amnesiac

Ret does not work in Town Support as is, and even with a hardcounter it will still be confirmable and overshadow Medium and Escort.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8818
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:56 am

Kirize12 wrote:Honestly I can see Ret balances going one of two ways:
•Town Power, the whole point of which is to be a town leader and confirmable so hardcounter doesn't work
•Nerfed down to Medium and Escort level by making it a town amnesiac

Ret does not work in Town Support as is, and even with a hardcounter it will still be confirmable and overshadow Medium and Escort.

town support doesn't work. just a filthy alignment for black sheep. it should just either never be alone in normal modes or be broken into various more specific alignments.

but I can agree with the other stuff kirize said. making a hard counter guarantees the role will be left as is, unclaimable for everything but its hard counter. ret can be changed to be claimable with the town amnesiac rework. hell even town power should work better than necromancer and that is coming from someone completely against it.
I have become what i despise, a man who despises himself.

Check out my role suggestions
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=45162
the psychaiatrist
Do you also want a more balanched and competetitive ranked mode in patch 1.6? See my ranked suggestions
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48199

How would a new investigator list with new roles look?
randomguyhavingfun
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1763
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:24 am
Location: ELO HELL

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kikigiri » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:21 pm

I don't like removing its basic function. In general I feel the game needs more interaction with the dead, not less. As long as there's going to be any interaction with the dead at all, they need to be encouraged to stay, which means giving them ways to influence the game or to get back into it.

(This is another reason to have a Necromancer, of course.)
Please put the Witch in Coven mode. I miss it. :-(
User avatar
Kikigiri
Jailor
Jailor
 
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Kirize12 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:05 pm

Interaction with the dead is all fine and well, but not if we have to sacrifice balance and integrity to do so. That's why I prefer the Town Power idea, so we can keep the Ret while still maintaining balance and integrity.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8818
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:18 am

You keep shoveling through the idea of Town Power. it works for FM. It wont work for TOS. In fact, it used to be a thing long time ago and it didnt work very well.

Town Power is a beautiful utopic idea. The roles you would shove in there have nothing in common beside being "stronger".

If anything there should be a mechanic that allows only one of the "more powerful" roles to spawn - but problem with that is that it would take out a lot of strategy from the game. But Town Power would do the same thing anyways - but you cant shove completedly different roles into a same allignment. The dynamic of the game would be quite dependent on what type of role you would roll in Town Power.

Anyways I think this would work decently to offset the Retri a little bit. Also gave some hope to the unlucky scum start of the game.
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:01 am

Mroz4k wrote:You keep shoveling through the idea of Town Power. it works for FM. It wont work for TOS. In fact, it used to be a thing long time ago and it didnt work very well.


really? well im not surprised that it didnt work well but did it seriously exist ?
I have become what i despise, a man who despises himself.

Check out my role suggestions
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=45162
the psychaiatrist
Do you also want a more balanched and competetitive ranked mode in patch 1.6? See my ranked suggestions
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48199

How would a new investigator list with new roles look?
randomguyhavingfun
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1763
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:24 am
Location: ELO HELL

Re: Necromancer (Neutral Evil) - evil counterpart to Retri

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:53 am

randomguyhavingfun wrote:
Mroz4k wrote:You keep shoveling through the idea of Town Power. it works for FM. It wont work for TOS. In fact, it used to be a thing long time ago and it didnt work very well.


really? well im not surprised that it didnt work well but did it seriously exist ?


Yea, long time ago. Somebody actually posted a screenshot of it. I personally dont really remember it - its possible it used to be a thing right before I joined up or most likely shortly after. I think it was TrueGent who posted a screenshot of Mayor, being a Town Power.

It works for a game like FM because that doesnt rely on powers so much, but more so on discussion. TOS is entirely relient on Role information.
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Previous

Return to Role Idea Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests