Balanced Disguiser: #RunItBack

[PolyesterHomes]

Yes. Absolutely yes.
Add now.

[oliy]

Disguiser needs a different buff, because Disguiser becomes confirmed without a Medium or Spy. Those are the problems we should address.
Simple fixes:
Remove target's last wills
Target is Blackmailed in death for two days
Spy will not see the Disguiser, and the Mafia will attack the Disguiser's name.

[orangeandblack5]

Disguiser needs a different buff, because Disguiser becomes confirmed without a Medium or Spy. Those are the problems we should address.
Simple fixes:
Remove target's last wills
Target is Blackmailed in death for two days
Spy will not see the Disguiser, and the Mafia will attack the Disguiser's name.

I believe you mean "with a Medium or a Spy".

And honestly, that's fine.

[KirbyRider1337]

Disguiser needs a different buff, because Disguiser becomes confirmed without a Medium or Spy. Those are the problems we should address.
Simple fixes:
Remove target's last wills
Target is Blackmailed in death for two days
Spy will not see the Disguiser, and the Mafia will attack the Disguiser's name.

I believe you mean "with a Medium or a Spy".

And honestly, that's fine.

Agreed on keeping this weakness; Medium and Spy can point out forgeries or a Disguiser who disguised as a cleaned/forged person, even with the Last Will vulnerabilities for the latter scenario. Plus, the whole point of this thread was to balance the Disguiser...

[Mroz4k]

Disguiser needs a different buff, because Disguiser becomes confirmed without a Medium or Spy. Those are the problems we should address.
Simple fixes:
Remove target's last wills
Target is Blackmailed in death for two days
Spy will not see the Disguiser, and the Mafia will attack the Disguiser's name.

you just summed down everything thats wrong with absolute majority of Role ideas as a thread.

People are always trying to overbuff their ideas for roles/buffs, in absolute majority of times.

Seriously, not a single one of the buffs you suggested is neccesary, or even a good idea, for a number of reasons.

There should always be a role that contradicts a certain Mafia role. Always.
And, speaking of Spy in general, thats kind of the role thats ultimate at confronting Mafia roles (just by seeing who they visit). Anyways Medium buff in general is a good idea, and Medium + Spy counterclaim ability towards Disguiser is also great, considering this buff gave Disguiser quite a decent power.

[K1llthestory]

ew no that's not how balance works roles shouldn't counter each other they should counter a lot of roles indirectly with a unique ability but ew that logic is gross

[orangeandblack5]

Hardcounters aren't great, but weaknesses are allowable.

[Mroz4k]

ew no that's not how balance works roles shouldn't counter each other they should counter a lot of roles indirectly with a unique ability but ew that logic is gross

There are lot of roles that are specifically what I would refer to as "cryptonite" toward another role. Spy in general is sort of a cryptonite towards Mafia in general. Like, Medium is a cryptonite to Janitor right now - as weak of a role as Medium is cause of its low confirmability, it removes one of the biggest Mafia powers in the game - ability to make a safe claimspot. Blackmailer is a cryptonite towards Mayor, for reasons rather obvious.

Its not like an existence of that role will neccesarily mean you will get lynched. I mean, good luck trying to convince someone this person was disguised as Medium, most ppl will consider you Jester or Exec unless you are trying a lot.

On the contrary, if you accuse the Disguiser out of being disguised, he will just disguise again to avoid the suspicion. It wont be easy to catch them.
Removing the deathnote makes Disguiser a low-quality Janitor of sorts. And blackmailing dead people is just lazy.
This is elegant suggestion that makes Disguiser still a rather unique role in terms of functioning, not a bastard copy of a different role.

(IMO if Disguising blackmails dead people, why doesnt cleaning work the same way? Whats the difference between those two, really, except one creates a spot to claim as well?)

[K1llthestory]

spy is a horribly constructed role.

Medium indirectly counters janitor with its ability that's useful in any game. Same with BMer except it'd be hard to BM mayor lmfao.

[Mroz4k]

spy is a horribly constructed role.

I dont dissagre on that point. As a role, Spy needs to be completedly overhauled. We had some pretty decent ideas as a group on that, too.

Medium indirectly counters janitor with its ability that's useful in any game. Same with BMer except it'd be hard to BM mayor lmfao.

Thats kind of what I meant by the Kryptonite. There is no role that would be specifically against another role, except for Vampire Hunter and lets be honest, Vampire Hunter is the biggest garbage of a role there is. I dont even consider it a role, tbh. To me, there are only two Town Killing roles cause that garbage doesnt count.

[orangeandblack5]

Three.

Jailor.

But I guess you're not wrong, since Jailor is confirmed in Ranked and most Custom games. Also because it is so OP that it doesn't even compare, even to Veteran.

[Mroz4k]

Just going to bump this up real quick... I am still dissatisfied with the amount of feedback on this, could use more opinions/comments on this.

22 yes vs 2 no for the poll to put this into effect feels pretty well. Its good to see people are interested in seeing the old roles corrected, rather then have them be removed or kept the same way. This should help elevate Mafia power by a decent amount - while keeping Disguiser independent from other roles like Framer or Janitor.

[Jerme]

Well I have often seen and read this topic. I do like the idea and have nothing to add, nor do I have open questions to it, so I abstained from commenting.
In the poll I have voted yes, since this way it is still noticeable that a person got disguised as, but harder to detect. I don't this change makes me stop playing Mafia goon/Jester when I am Disguiser, but this is a personal reason. Good job on this.
May I know how much time you have spent on this?

[Mroz4k]

May I know how much time you have spent on this?

Depends.

On this particular idea? It was epiphany, I think I was reading some of Kirize´s or Orange´s Role Ideas when it struck me. Or it might have been when there was a discussion about Elastoid´s Spy change idea.
When I got it, I spent about a day or two thinking through all the possible scenarios that came to my mind. Trying to figure out the weak points or illogical interactions there could be with this scenario.

As far as trying to figure out how to fix Disguiser, as well as bunch of other roles - its going to be over a year now. I tend to think through a number of possible opinions, situations and ideas for buffs because I´d prefer the game was more balanced out rather then push out newer and newer roles, because looking back, this always seems to destabilize the game rather then make it more balanced. Vampire & Vampire Hunter are the perfect example.

[orangeandblack5]

And Werewolf

[Robocog]

I would love this to be added, it would make Disguiser more enjoyable for me, because as it is right now, Disguiser is absolutely AWFUL.

It is basically not even worth disguising if there isn't a Janitor or Forger, because everyone puts their name in their will. Sometimes they even put a different name to try to get someone lynched.

So, yeah I am all for this role. I would love to see it make it to the TG

[mmss5joker]

I saw a person say disguiser is ok......DISGUISER IS NOT OK. It is extremly hard to disguise in rank, since most people put names in wills.

[Tricks]

Disguiser need this buff.

[GuldenFlame]

Here is one thing that could give this away.
The second person's will will only be up to date of the night he died. This would be the new giveaway for the disguiser.

Night 4: Giles dies
Will: Giles the Transporter
N1 2&3
N2 11&6

Due to the fact it was written as if he died N2, the town would know a disguiser is about.

[Mroz4k]

Here is one thing that could give this away.
The second person's will will only be up to date of the night he died. This would be the new giveaway for the disguiser.

Night 4: Giles dies
Will: Giles the Transporter
N1 2&3
N2 11&6

Due to the fact it was written as if he died N2, the town would know a disguiser is about.

Which may or may not be a give away at all. Could be they didnt update the will, or it might be forged, or it could be they just stopped caring to keep the will up to date.

Anyway this is pretty valid point, thanks. Regardless, its not as immidiate as the names in last wills, so its still a big improvement.

Here is another thought. What about Disguiserbeing able to add new info into their victims las will, but being unable to remove the previous one?

[orangeandblack5]

Here is one thing that could give this away.
The second person's will will only be up to date of the night he died. This would be the new giveaway for the disguiser.

Night 4: Giles dies
Will: Giles the Transporter
N1 2&3
N2 11&6

Due to the fact it was written as if he died N2, the town would know a disguiser is about.

Which may or may not be a give away at all. Could be they didnt update the will, or it might be forged, or it could be they just stopped caring to keep the will up to date.

Anyway this is pretty valid point, thanks. Regardless, its not as immidiate as the names in last wills, so its still a big improvement.

Here is another thought. What about Disguiserbeing able to add new info into their victims las will, but being unable to remove the previous one?

This isn't even a problem.

It only gives away that the person was disguised after they die.

And that's only a problem the second and third times you disguise, if you even do.

Again, not a problem.

[Mroz4k]

Oh, right. Not sure why I considered this bad.

It just confirms existence of Disguiser, who would be proven this way anyways because the second last will wouldnt match the role of the actual victim, only name (and role of the previous disguiser body.)
So this is no big deal.

(thx orange for bringing me back to senses)

[orangeandblack5]

(thx orange for bringing me back to senses)

It's what I'm here for

[Wzombie]

I. Love. This. YOU HEAR THAT, BMG? ADD IT.


Otherwise I will be very unhappy

[PinataColada]

Here is one thing that could give this away.
The second person's will will only be up to date of the night he died. This would be the new giveaway for the disguiser.

Night 4: Giles dies
Will: Giles the Transporter
N1 2&3
N2 11&6

Due to the fact it was written as if he died N2, the town would know a disguiser is about.

Still, you have a fighting chance now instead of the original "disguise and get lynched immediately" problem.

/support