Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Old Role Ideas

Which Vampire/Vampire Hunter change is the best? One vote per role.

Remove Vampire entirely.
6
10%
Change Vampire to murat1996's Shadowalker.
8
13%
Change Vampire to orangeandblack5's idea.
6
10%
Change Vampire to Kiyosen's idea.
2
3%
Change Vampire to Kirize12's idea.
4
7%
Change Vampire to kookeekwisp's idea.
1
2%
Change Vampire to Mroz4k's idea.
8
13%
Remove Vampire Hunter entirely.
12
20%
Change Vampire Hunter to Kiyosen's Hunter.
2
3%
Change Vampire Hunter to orangeandblack5's idea.
5
8%
Change Vampire Hunter to Kirize12's idea.
0
No votes
Change Vampire Hunter to kookeekwisp's idea.
0
No votes
Change Vampire Hunter to Mroz4k's idea.
7
11%
 
Total votes : 61

Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:59 am

Who said you cant have Custom, which is under Standard, for balanced custom games, and have a Vampire in it? You can. Just replace the Neutral Evil with the Neutral Chaos. If its still "Custom" you should be able to customize it yourself, right? (but, maybe it could be restricted to "No more then three Any", "no more then three Neutral Killing - which means no Mafia", etc...
In Balanced Custom, you could have customizable lobby which wouldnt allow too crazy changes (like 7 Executioners, for example) - and the "Chaos Custom" would allow every change... (except maybe no more then 6 Any).

Anyways guys, stop this off-topic - you came here to discuss Vampire/Vampire Hunter - not gamemode lobbies, right?


Back on topic:
I had a decent idea with a Vampire and Vampire Hunter - I will be putting that into Role Ideas sometime during today. I will PM you guys when its ready, so you can add it into comparison.

Not revealing too much... My basic idea is that you cannot create a fair, 100% pure conversion role.
So I made a killing / conversion hybrid, filed it under Killing.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:58 pm

Sounds like mine, so that'll be fine.

Can't wait to see it. :D
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby Mroz4k » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:57 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Sounds like mine, so that'll be fine.

Can't wait to see it. :D


Not entirely like yours.
Spoiler contains a bit more detailed description of what I have in mind: Spoiler: Imagine the Vamps that are right now, except they vote to kill on Fullmoon nights, and they vote to convert on normal nights. Thats basically the suggestion XD
There is naturally only 1 kill by the Vampire collective, and 1 conversion. This means it can be focused on getting allies through conversions, being able to kill Mafia (if they try to convert Mafia, nothing happens), but are completedly defenseless, being the only Neutral Killing that doesnt have Night Immunity.

Neutral Killing that converts itself, but is completedly vulnerable defense-wise. Its defense would be in gathering new allies.

I am going to go work on that topic now.

Othervise, I completedly overhauled the Vampire Hunter.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion - Re

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:33 am

I'm noticing a slight problem in the reset poll:

Voting for a non-conversion Vampire idea and Mroz's Vampire Hunter doesn't really work.

Think about it. Mroz's VH's goal is to kill all of the Vampires, and if the Vampire is changed to not be a conversion role Mroz's idea fails.

They would work fine seperately, but together...? Not so much.

Just something to consider when you vote.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion - Re

Postby Mroz4k » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:30 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:I'm noticing a slight problem in the reset poll:

Voting for a non-conversion Vampire idea and Mroz's Vampire Hunter doesn't really work.

Think about it. Mroz's VH's goal is to kill all of the Vampires, and if the Vampire is changed to not be a conversion role Mroz's idea fails.

They would work fine seperately, but together...? Not so much.

Just something to consider when you vote.


Good point.

Yet I have seen people say they like the VH idea, but not the Vampire, or just the Vampire and no Vampire Hunter at all.

I think its fine to leave that as is - just put in only 2 Options to vote, people who would want to have Vampire non-conversion role would naturally vote on Vamp Hunter to be removed entirely (or one of the suggestions to have it changed into Town Killing which is more versatile then just after Vampires)

I dont think anyone is dumb enough to vote Vampire to be a non-conversion role, and then vote for Vamp Hunter that is focused on eradicating this particular, non-duplicating role.

OR, another idea - instead of putting a vote for my Vampire, and my Vampire Hunter, you can put it one vote for my Vampire, and second one for my Vampire & Vampire Hunter.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion - Re

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:11 pm

Mroz4k wrote:I dont think anyone is dumb enough to vote Vampire to be a non-conversion role, and then vote for Vamp Hunter that is focused on eradicating this particular, non-duplicating role.

Somebody had actually done just that, but after reading my post they re-voted, I'd assume they're the one that chose to "Remove Vampire Hunter entirely".
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion - Re

Postby Mroz4k » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:27 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Mroz4k wrote:I dont think anyone is dumb enough to vote Vampire to be a non-conversion role, and then vote for Vamp Hunter that is focused on eradicating this particular, non-duplicating role.

Somebody had actually done just that, but after reading my post they re-voted, I'd assume they're the one that chose to "Remove Vampire Hunter entirely".


Oh.
Well it wouldnt make sense to have a buffed-up Survivor hunting a specific NK role, and if they succeeded, they would become a permanent Survivor/Executioner who needs to stay alive till the end of the game.

Hehe.

It sounds like some silly comedy TOS Fanfic - "Neutral Benigns are full of your bullshit, Vampire... now its time we will hunt YOU down for a change!" then they just continue minding their own bussiness, just trying to live till the end of the game.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Vampire and Vampire Hunter Discussion Megathread

Postby DeathBell » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:07 pm

Kiyosen wrote:
DeathBell wrote:We can't ignore the wishes of the kickstarter donations who wanted a conversion role and a counter to it. That would only put BMG in a bad position and people would question their loyalty to their community entirely. This is why we can't just remove either of the roles or replace them with completely different roles aka shadowalker.
Agree with you here completely. Good thing the word "conversion" and "counter" can be interpreted differently.

Kiyosens suggestion is probably the worst one as it adds nothing and do nothing to cause any sort of chaos which is what people want from a neutral role and especially a Neutral Killing. Lets not ignore the fact that it lets people have a second chance of winning without any sort of consequence and it gives a chance for rival factions to win together which completely eliminates a core part of the game. I get it, you hate losing your role to a conversion because it makes the game less fun and a lot harder but leting the converted keep both their roles and their goal aint going to work.
Okay, the word "nothing" is a pretty strong word there. Gonna give a summary here on what my Vampire rework is. The role is basically an Arsonist that "douses" its targets and must "douse" everyone who opposes them(Town, Mafia, and other NK roles) in order to win. If it dies, everyone who was "doused" dies the next day. Has a very weak early game but a strong late game since as the game progresses, more people are "converted" and the town can potentially have a choice to keep the Vampire alive in order to prevent deaths or killing it in the risk of losing majority. But anything that hard-counters the current Arsonist also hard-counter my Vampire anyway. Idea is also only considered if Arsonists get silent douses. I'm not really sure if you got that part. Now the part that I 100% know you didn't understand and that I have to keep repeating is that ONLY the Vampire and those who meet their conditions when the game ends. So that's only Vampire, Survivor, Witch, Executioners who lynched their target, and lynched Jesters. Therefore, the red underlined part is false. Last sentence might also be false as well.

Every single role in the game requires luck and a strength in number concept doesn't increase that luck or make it an auto win unless you make it ridiculous. It's very easy to avoid any overbuffing of a conversion role if you pay attention to action and consequences. Increased power after a certain number with a weak start or Decreased power after a certain number with a stronger start is the best way if we want the vampire to become a lategame role like the other Neutral killing. There are plenty of ways to get creative ideas around that concept and keep it balanced if people do action and consequence.
I perceive the "strength in numbers concept" as an informed minority, which that itself is fine since Mafia games involve a faction with an informed minority. The terms "Mafia" and "Cult" are two different things so they're viewed differently. A "Mafia", like the Mafia faction we have now, is fine depending on how you balance the roles in its faction. A "Cult", like the current Vampire, is not as you get ethical controversy over the win conditions of the converted, play2win mentalities leading people to gamethrowing, etc. I'm also surprised that you're using luck as a focus here. Also need clarification on "action and consequences" because I feel that I may be interpreting it differently.

Responses in blue... :/

EDIT: I think Orange helped me find what I was missing. Thanks.

It sounded rude as hell and I apologize for that, that wasn't my intention. What threw me off was "the game will end and only you and those who can also meet their original goal will win." combined with just being "marked" which I read as marked townies keeps their original alignment and goals with an inclusion of winning with the vampire if all were marked at the end of the game. Thats why my concern was with the end game of vamp vs town where town could easily just help vamps win and lose nothing from it. I assume now that this is not the case and my previous assumptions were wrong.

My luck comment was towards Oranges' comment of a strength in number concept being either a luck role or a broken role. My interpretation of action and consequence in balancing is how a roles ability could affect the game entirely and/or affect single role regardless of negativity or positivity. Does the ability change too much/little of the games core features or does it help or harm a single roles capability a bit too much. I've seen people ignore how much their role could affect other roles when creating their role ideas.

A cult role can not in any case win without a complete majority or win with any other factions except a few selected neutrals. It won't work in any other way as the gamethrowing would become an essential part of the game. What I meant this time about strength in number is the ability to be stronger the more people you convert and get very small rewards which puts the "leader" in a better position. Now that doesn't mean they should get the 2 mayor immunities in the game, Night Immunity and investigative immunity. At the maximum conversion it should at best gain roleblock immunity. The progress should be slow so we don't end up with an instant win role.
You can always pm me if you want me to comment your role idea
Favorite roles: Witch,Veteran,Transporter and Consort/Escort
Boring roles: Any direct killing roles

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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion - Re

Postby Kiyosen » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:22 am

Well I now have a second Vampire concept. This one just utilizes possible lore loopholes. Your average delayed killer. I'll get to the response above eventually. (And don't sweat it.)



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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion - Re

Postby Mroz4k » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:26 am

Kiyosen wrote:Well I now have a second Vampire concept. This one just utilizes possible lore loopholes. Your average delayed killer. I'll get to the response above eventually. (And don't sweat it.)

I am sweating with expectations :D
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Location: Away in the real world

Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:48 pm

I'm surprised that nobody else has come up with an overhaul yet.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby N2Power » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:03 am

Hey guys,

there is one thing that bothers me about this whole Vampire fix discussion and that is: Noone actually explains why. People suggesting the change seem to be talking about Ranked only. Of course Vamps have a crappy winrate in Ranked, first, they are rare and second, everyone who isnt Town or maybe NB has a crappy winrate in Ranked right? I play Custom most of the time and Vamps are not at all underpowered there. Kirize12 mentioned some points, but they too seem only to be from a Ranked perspective.

Doesn't seem like the roles are to blame, but the mode. And isn't it established that Ranked is imbalanced? I mean, it's clearly proven by the statistics, as far as I know.

I would appreciate if someone could share some thoughts.
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:21 am

Well

The problem is that Vampires are a conversion role

And Vampire Hunters are a hardcounter role

And they both suck regardless of mode

So
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby N2Power » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:26 am

And you haven't given any reason at all.
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby Kiyosen » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:21 am

I agree with you. It's just Ranked's problem with the concept. Ranked has a problem with conversion roles due to making the game less team-based for Town since you could potentially change sides at any time when Vampires could convert. Anything goes for Custom/All Any so I never cared about looking into it at the time. I'd personally rather remove Vampires from Ranked(and ultimately removing BMG's "promise" to have all roles in Ranked, it'd save me a lot of thinking) and I think orange said this at one point as well. My Vampire overhaul is merely an alternative if BMG is willing to risk having community backlash.

My thing is outdated and I don't 100% support it anyway so I'd like to withdraw only my Vampire overhaul from this. VH overhaul can stay.



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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:55 am

N2Power wrote:And you haven't given any reason at all.

I could, but this would be me yet again repeating myself. Long story short, conversion roles are swingy as all hell, hardcounter roles are either useless or necessary, destroying game balance even further. These two types of roles are impossible to truly balance even while seperate and therefore should be reworked or removed to keep the integrity of game balance solid.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

Postby N2Power » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:35 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
N2Power wrote:And you haven't given any reason at all.

I could, but this would be me yet again repeating myself. Long story short, conversion roles are swingy as all hell, hardcounter roles are either useless or necessary, destroying game balance even further. These two types of roles are impossible to truly balance even while seperate and therefore should be reworked or removed to keep the integrity of game balance solid.

Well, please do repeat yourself.
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