Vampire/Vampire Hunter Complete Overhaul Discussion

[Nellyfox]

You're honestly just collecting ideas and then not allowing discussion on them.

But eh, have at it then.

[orangeandblack5]

Mine isn't a true Cultafia because the Vampire Spawn have NO abilities. It just looks like they do. They basically exist only to confuse the Town, particularly on the matter of confirmable roles. The cap of 3 helps this from being too culty as well, and it's actually more worth it (using Elastoid's game clock) to just kill every night. At any rate, the Shadowalker and both of Kiyo's ideas are better than mine, I just made mine to keep conversions and a counter so the devs aren't revoking a Kickstarter promise or two to fix these roles.

Also Kirize, what that means is that if this was a pure advertisement I wouldn't be advertising your stuff since I don't like it that much personally. It's not bad, but I'd only be advertising the stuff I actually like.

You're honestly just collecting ideas and then not allowing discussion on them.

But eh, have at it then.

NINJA'D

Anyways, I'm not disallowing discussion. I'm simply keeping discussion on one focus: complete overhauls. Anybody can PM me their ideas and I'll add them, but I refuse to discuss buffs or nerfs here because they simply aren't enough.

[murat1996]

To be fair, I wasn't asked about my Shadowalker being in this thread though.

I mean really?

[orangeandblack5]

I added all of the overhauls I was aware of, and than asked that future ones be PMed to avoid clutter.

If you want me to remove yours, just say so.

[murat1996]

I added all of the overhauls I was aware of, and than asked that future ones be PMed to avoid clutter.

If you want me to remove yours, just say so.

No, I just wanna see how it goes.

I only said that because you didn't ask me,but its okay though.

[orangeandblack5]

Kookeek completely re-did his idea, so we're exploiting a loophole in the rules and adding their ideas to the list. We're only doing this loophole once. Don't even think about trying to do this yourself.

This will probably reset the poll, sorry.

Everybody vote again!

[Mroz4k]

I fully agree something has to be done about these two Roles, however (while there are some really good points in here), I dont think either of these suggestions are all entirely a solution.

I have few ideas how to change the Vampire Hunter, and I think I can make a decent idea for a Vampire, now that I have seen how it works (So its not as stupid of a suggestion as the one I made before the Vamps actually made it into the game)

But, looking back at a thread I made about Vampire Hunter before they were both added (this one) I still think this is the correct avenue to go.

Vampire Hunter cannot be a Town role. Thats just the way it is. It cannot be, its whole existence benefits Mafia the most (its a Town role specialized for killing off specific faction, and its existence means there is one less Town Role that would endanger the Mafia, like Veteran or Vigilante). Vampire Hunter will have to be a Neutral Benign role,
with a 100% chance of appearing in a game with Vampires. And Vampires will have to capable of killing Mafia members.

[kookeekwisp]

I fully agree something has to be done about these two Roles, however (while there are some really good points in here), I dont think either of these suggestions are all entirely a solution.

I have few ideas how to change the Vampire Hunter, and I think I can make a decent idea for a Vampire, now that I have seen how it works (So its not as stupid of a suggestion as the one I made before the Vamps actually made it into the game)

But, looking back at a thread I made about Vampire Hunter before they were both added (this one) I still think this is the correct avenue to go.

Vampire Hunter cannot be a Town role. Thats just the way it is. It cannot be, its whole existence benefits Mafia the most (its a Town role specialized for killing off specific faction, and its existence means there is one less Town Role that would endanger the Mafia, like Veteran or Vigilante). Vampire Hunter will have to be a Neutral Benign role,
with a 100% chance of appearing in a game with Vampires. And Vampires will have to capable of killing Mafia members.

...Well, this certainly looks awkward.

If you wanted this idea added, you should have PMed orange about it. It's in the rules.

We're only doing this loophole once. Don't even think about trying to do this yourself.

[ICECLIMBERS]

These suggestions seem too overly complex.
Currently the vampire mechanic is simple. Convert a player. Vampire Hunters kill you.
The best solution to simple mechanics like these are ones that don't entirely overhaul the system. Complexity will rely mostly in failure. This is why ToS is hard to balance: you have to account for about 30 different roles.
I'd wait for the data to come out, but if you think about it they've already put in place one change by creating a max number of vampires. Let's make that number, say, 3. Now we have the vampire hunter which harms the faction too much. You could change it to having a max number of stakes. So for the entire game you can only stake three vampires. Hitting anything else will not use a stake. Small tweaks like these would be easier to implement without backtracking on the kickstarter goals.

Since vampires cannot spawn in normal games (aside from something like 3% chance in ranked, which is effectively null), they will mostly be seen in custom setups. Since custom isn't balanced from the start, I don't see any harm to having the vampire mechanic in there, albeit modified from changes that the devs deem important. Vampires are swingy, but they shouldn't be completely overhauled.

If you want a VH-less game with vampires, it'd probably be something like
Spoiler: Vampire
Witch
Doctor
Doctor
Escort
Veteran/Vigilante
Sheriff x9
I guess.

[orangeandblack5]

Don't worry Kookeek, he was posting a link to his idea as an example of a BAD idea.

So he's cool. It's blacklisted now, yes, but that was never a concern.

@ICECLIMBERS: If we were going to discuss small buffs and/or nerfs, which I would very much dislike on a thread that is supposed to avoid such discussion, I would say that in that case the only good solution is to make a copy of Custom called "Chaotic Custom", put it in the Chaos gamemode group, and then restrict Chaos roles to spawning in Chaos modes.

However, the literal point of this thread is to not talk about buffs and nerfs, so let's not do so any more. Talking about wheter an overhaul is necessary is fine, but I'd like to avoid discussion on "which buffs should we use?" and stuff like that.

[ShortcutButton]

Is there a "keep Vampire the same" option? I honestly don't care about all these half-baked and untested ideas.

[orangeandblack5]

No.

Because keeping it the same shouldn't be an option.

BlankMediaGames themselves know this.

They're going to do something.

It's a matter of when they get "enough data", whenever that is (it's been like a month so probably soon).

[ICECLIMBERS]

I do not believe that these roles need to be overhauled.
Limiting them to only rainbow, all any, and a chaotic form of custom should never happen. If people want a custom game with the ranked list, but neutral evil is replaced by vampires, that's their decision. It's custom after all.
I do support splitting custom and removing rapid, but there should not be any role restricted only to certain modes.

[orangeandblack5]

That's literally Chaotic Custom. It doesn't prevent you from having a Ranked-like list with Vampires, wheras normal Custom does. Chaos modes for Chaos roles.

[ICECLIMBERS]

That's literally Chaotic Custom. It doesn't prevent you from having a Ranked-like list with Vampires, wheras normal Custom does. Chaos modes for Chaos roles.

I don't support this and I see no reason as to why it would be implemented.
For a chaotic custom mode I'd imagine something akin to rainbow.
It's entirely possible to make a somewhat balanced list using vampires after people have played with them thoroughly. That's how we got 8-3-3-1 which, although not perfect, is far better than many setups seen on custom.
Plus the only reason why it's neutral chaos is so it won't roll in ranked often.

[orangeandblack5]

You can make an 8-3-3-1 in Chaotic Custom. There is literally NO difference between the two except for the fact that Chaos roles can spawn in Chaotic Custom. It's nothing like Rainbow at all.

[ICECLIMBERS]

Then the only difference is you can play with vampires in one and without vampires in the other. If you want a game with vampires then join a lobby with them. If you want a game without vampires then join a lobby without them. Seems simple enough to me. Doing something like this would just dilute the playerbase. Most people would want to play in the one with vampires, even if the list doesn't have any space for them.

[orangeandblack5]

You'd be surprised how many times this split has been suggested.

It'll keep those that want a balanced, thoughtful game apart from those that want crazy setups. Chaos roles should also be restricted to Chaos modes if they're not entirely done away with.

[ICECLIMBERS]

You'd be surprised how many times this split has been suggested.

It'll keep those that want a balanced, thoughtful game apart from those that want crazy setups. Chaos roles should also be restricted to Chaos modes if they're not entirely done away with.

I do support splitting custom

Chaos roles should also be restricted to Chaos modes if they're not entirely done away with.

waste of time

[orangeandblack5]

How do you expect to get actually balanced roles out of a conversion role and something that turns dead players into zombies?

You can't.

[ICECLIMBERS]

I don't think it's very difficult to find a rank-like setup in custom. I just went to a custom lobby and I walked right into a ranked-like list. No vampires even.
It's custom. People make their own list. If they want to use roles that are imbalanced, that's entirely their decision. Splitting custom just for that is, as I stated before, a waste of time and it will only serve to dilute the playerbase more than previously suggested splits.

[orangeandblack5]

It's not just for this. As a supporter of splitting Custom, you know that the other reasons are all valid. However, all I'm saying is that Chaos modes should be restricted to Chaos gametypes. You'll still find balanced-ish Custom games with Vampires, but you'll find them in the Chaos section. There shouldn't be a problem with this.

[ICECLIMBERS]

It's not just for this. As a supporter of splitting Custom, you know that the other reasons are all valid. However, all I'm saying is that Chaos modes should be restricted to Chaos gametypes. You'll still find balanced-ish Custom games with Vampires, but you'll find them in the Chaos section. There shouldn't be a problem with this.

Ah, you see. There is.

I want to play a ranked-like setup with vampires. I have to go to the chaos section of custom. There I need to sift through serial killers vs. arsonists, 13 executioner games, etc. just to find what I'm looking for when most people don't even want to play a somewhat-balanced list.
Or lots of people are looking for such a list that the people who want rainbow-like games can't find what they're looking for.
You risk putting too many people into one pool when they're divided over what to play. And with vampires being a recent addition most people will want to play with them for a while, like how many custom setups featured werewolf a year ago or forger back in summer. So here's the catch: you will put a great number of people into the chaotic custom mode while few stay in the classic custom mode. And in the end they can't even agree on a rolelist, which echoes the exact same problems that the current custom mode presents!
Wouldn't it be simpler to just have a Vampire: On or Vampire: Off section in game modes instead.

[Mroz4k]

Who said you cant have Custom, which is under Standard, for balanced custom games, and have a Vampire in it? You can. Just replace the Neutral Evil with the Neutral Chaos. If its still "Custom" you should be able to customize it yourself, right? (but, maybe it could be restricted to "No more then three Any", "no more then three Neutral Killing - which means no Mafia", etc...
In Balanced Custom, you could have customizable lobby which wouldnt allow too crazy changes (like 7 Executioners, for example) - and the "Chaos Custom" would allow every change... (except maybe no more then 6 Any).

Anyways guys, stop this off-topic - you came here to discuss Vampire/Vampire Hunter - not gamemode lobbies, right?

Back on topic:
I had a decent idea with a Vampire and Vampire Hunter - I will be putting that into Role Ideas sometime during today. I will PM you guys when its ready, so you can add it into comparison.

Not revealing too much... My basic idea is that you cannot create a fair, 100% pure conversion role.
So I made a killing / conversion hybrid, filed it under Killing.

[orangeandblack5]

Sounds like mine, so that'll be fine.

Can't wait to see it.