Lost Spirit and Ghost

Old Role Ideas

What of the roles needs more tweaking

Nothing (Ghost)
59
22%
Nothing (Lost Spirit)
61
23%
Alignment (Ghost) -> comment
16
6%
Alignment (Lost Spirit) -> comment
13
5%
Abilites/Attributes (Ghost) -> comment
26
10%
Abilites/Attributes (Lost Spirit) -> comment
21
8%
Goal (Ghost) -> comment
14
5%
Goal (Lost Spirit) -> comment
16
6%
Investigation results (Ghost) -> comment
24
9%
Investigation results (Lost Spirit) -> comment
17
6%
 
Total votes : 267

Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:15 am

Thank you :)
That role had a long way of tweaking, there are still some traces of what I had also planned in. Is there something you would change, you especially like or some questiosn you would liek to have answered?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby VoidRuler » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:15 am

This is a newer review of your two role ideas, so it's not associated with the other one I made a while ago.

Lost Spirit:

Lost Spirit is a very unique and creative role. The only problem I have with it is making it's killer immune for two nights is very powerful, and it's core ability is already a big one. I might recommend taking that out completely, or making their killer only immune for one night afterward. It's also just a thought, not sure if it's that great, but the Bodyguard/Doctor might have a message for when they try protecting the Lost Spirit. The Investigation results on it are also very balanced, having 2 evil and 2 town roles. Another thing I'm suggesting but I'm not completely sure about is that I think the Sheriff should might be able to pick it up as a Lost Spirit.

Not sure if the lore was here when I originally read it, as I'm sure it wasn't. But nice job on the lore. And I don't think they should have special interactions with any roles.

Ghost:

Love this role idea. In turn for protection of the target, it RB's them. Not to mention it's ability is also limited, same with using it on itself. I also can't remember but if my memory serves me right, this used to be a Neutral Protective. I'm so glad it's now Town, as it makes more sense this way. The Investigation results are also very balanced.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:41 am

Thank you for your review VoidRuler.

The alignment of both were Neutral(Protective) from the beginning, but dota2Reporter has shown me that this alignment was a very bad idea. So I changed it.
The killer is immune to an attack (and maul/Ingite) on the night they kill the spirit and the night after, which of these nights should I remove?
Yes I will add the messages soon after I have posted this reply.
I had the finding of the Spirit once in the Invest results, which might give the Lost Spirit a possible ally, not sure about this one, so I require more opinions towartds that.
I have changed the lore slightly, you are correct. Thank you for that one :)
I had the idea of making this role town earlier, but thought that teaming up with neutral would be a godo idea, but thanks to dota2reporter again that he made me realize how bad the idea or a Neutral(Protective)-role was.
I was undecided about the Investigation-results but thank you for telling that the one I have given both is fine.
Question: Who of you would like to see one (or both) of these roles in action? Should I ask the TG-review-group again to take a look at my roles and let them decide if one of them is gonna be tested?
I am also currently thinking about, if the death by visiting Witch makes the Spirit too weak. I am currentlyx undecided but thinking more on no (65%/35%)

This is slightly offtopic, but I also could write the one or other lore for a roleidea.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby LadyAnnabelle » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:48 am

Suggestion for a Ghost Achievement: Ghastly adversary: Die to the WereWolf you protect 3 games in a row
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:45 am

I don't think that this would be a good one for two reasons:
1. Each game stands for their own and these moments won't be saved I think.
2. This would lead to salty archievmenthunting, when players roll the Ghost and there is no Werewolf o they die to something else.
I appreciate the idea though :)
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby LadyAnnabelle » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:57 am

ok, ill think of more achievements then, cuz the Achievement section is kinda lack-luster...
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:36 pm

Added 3 archievments for the Ghost and one for the Lost Spirit. Opinions?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby LadyAnnabelle » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:37 pm

Jerme wrote:Added 3 archievments for the Ghost and one for the Lost Spirit. Opinions?

All of them are awesome. :D
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby lucas8411 » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:28 pm

Jerme wrote:Added 3 archievments for the Ghost and one for the Lost Spirit. Opinions?


What are the NEW archievments again? I wanna say my opinion about it.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby becauseimbatman » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:31 pm

Lost Spirit

I really like the idea of the Lost Spirit role, but as someone already said, granting two nights of immunity is a strong reason to find and kill them. Since they have strong powers, I feel as if it might better fit as a unique role.

What I don't understand is where it says they lose if they get attacked by the killing role they find. So would that mean if they find the Vig and the Vig shoots them that night they lose, or do they just lose because they were directly attacked?

The OP also says that the Lost Spirit cannot win if jailed. If that's the case, will the Lost Spirit only win if they die to the Jailor by visiting them and lose if executed?

An idea for its connection with Witches can be that if witched, they convert into a Neutral Evil role whose goal becomes to protect the Witch at all costs. Whether or not the Lost Spirit finds out the Witch's identity that same night is debatable. (Maybe they turn into another version of the Ghost? Would their only option be to protect the Witch?) Afterwards if the Witch dies then they either revert back to their original role or commit suicide over the guilt of losing another Witch. Maybe the Witch utters a spell to kill the Lost Spirit since that might also fit the lore.

I feel as if Lost Spirit would be an "easy" role since all you have to do is find a killing role and hope that same player isn't targeting you. Side note, does BG count since it technically kills attackers?

Ghost

Ghost seems like a good role too and I think I read in the OP that they cannot die by Jailor. If I read that right then the Jailor can auto-execute Ghost claims and if their target lives they are confirmed. I'm uncertain about this attribute, nothing more about the role would need tweaking; however, I can see this being problematic since it also roleblocks the player you want to protect. If there is a confirmed Towny you'll be keeping them safe, but they won't be able to do their job. Obviously there are circumstances where this won't matter (Jailor jailing Mayor, protecting Mayor, protecting Medium, etc.), so it will just come down to how the role best fits in the situation.

Off topic, but I feel as if Ghost could be renamed Haunter since it reminds of it. I'm pretty sure half the players won't get the reference, however.

Final Thoughts

I definitely like the idea of their abilities, but I'm still uncertain if they come off as slightly OP.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:57 pm

@Batman
About the Lost Spirit:
It loses it it gets killed by ANY killing role who visits it, even if a(n other) killing role is found that night, so not only the one the Spirit has visited.
I had it in when the LS is jailed it automaticly win, but I removed it. The Spirit must find the jailor by themselves or convice the jailor to believe them and to share their name. An execution lets this role lose.
The curse the Spirit suffers labels it as untrustworthy (--> one should not trust them with their life), so Witch finding the Spirit notices the label and fulfills the deceased Witchs desire: eternal tornment for the Spirit (her magic was to weak to banish the former Bodyguard into hell). So I only think a Witch should kill the Spirit upon visiting it.
BG does not count as killing role for the Lost Spirit. Only those with the alignment x(Killing) except for Arsonist (and maybe Vampire Hunter?), but a BG killing the one the LS visits would count for its victory.
Originally this role was unique and currently you are the only one besides a part of me, who would like this role to be unique.
For the immunity: Which night shall the immunity be granted then? The night the Lost spirit dies or the night after?

I am thinking about havign the Jailor notified when havign the Ghost jailed ("You feel tired", "Your Target feels very light"), but not sure about it, but yes the Jailor is unable to perform their nightability when havign the Ghost jailed (and execute attmept does not consume a charge). This role has a limited use of their protection (4) to balance its strength/capability to cause Chaos. Well do you refer to the Pokemon Haunter? The Ghost could be renamed, yes, but currently does this name fit the role, for me at least.

Thank you for yoru review. I hope I have cleared up my decisions and your questions.

@lucas the archievments I have added are always on the bottom of each list.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby VoidRuler » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:11 pm

Jerme wrote:Thank you for your review VoidRuler.

The alignment of both were Neutral(Protective) from the beginning, but dota2Reporter has shown me that this alignment was a very bad idea. So I changed it.
The killer is immune to an attack (and maul/Ingite) on the night they kill the spirit and the night after, which of these nights should I remove?
Yes I will add the messages soon after I have posted this reply.
I had the finding of the Spirit once in the Invest results, which might give the Lost Spirit a possible ally, not sure about this one, so I require more opinions towartds that.
I have changed the lore slightly, you are correct. Thank you for that one :)
I had the idea of making this role town earlier, but thought that teaming up with neutral would be a godo idea, but thanks to dota2reporter again that he made me realize how bad the idea or a Neutral(Protective)-role was.
I was undecided about the Investigation-results but thank you for telling that the one I have given both is fine.
Question: Who of you would like to see one (or both) of these roles in action? Should I ask the TG-review-group again to take a look at my roles and let them decide if one of them is gonna be tested?
I am also currently thinking about, if the death by visiting Witch makes the Spirit too weak. I am currentlyx undecided but thinking more on no (65%/35%)

This is slightly offtopic, but I also could write the one or other lore for a roleidea.


I thought you meant for 2 nights after the Lost Spirit is killed. In that case, it's fine. Didn't realize.
I think Ghost should be tested first if you're going to ask for them to be role tested.
I didn't know the Lost Spirit can be killed by visiting Witch, as the Witch natively can't kill. I don't think Witch should.
From what it sounds like, you don't want the Spirit to be able to control Jailor after being executed. You should probably make an indication about that on the role card.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:38 am

Thank you for your answers, to that. I probably should clear up the granted immunity in the Lost Spirits rolecard.
I thought the Witches are rather vengeful, since it was "responsible" for a death of an other one. This is the only way I thought a a possible interaction with Witches accordign to its lore.
An other Idea would be that the Witch stops the spirit from winning when visiting (Spirit cannot die via ability).
The Jailor jailing the Spirit should not grant an autowin, but if it visits the Jailor, the Spirit has the regular behaviour (victory if it not killed by other sources). Otherwise this grants the Spirit an easier victory (Detected, Sheriff passes this to the Jailor, Jailor jails Spirit for immunity)

I hope I have cleared up some things, if there are more suggestions, or questions: Don't hesitate and post.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby LadyAnnabelle » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:41 am

ok..... so question, what happens if the Spirit Visits the ghost, but the Ghost is Going to another house?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:54 am

LadyAnnabelle wrote:ok..... so question, what happens if the Spirit Visits the ghost, but the Ghost is Going to another house?

Nothing. The Lost Spirit looks for a cause of death, while the Ghosts decides to rpotect others.
If you meant it the other way round (Lost Spirit seeks for a cause of death, while the Ghost visits --> Lost Spirit is protection immune. Nothing happens)
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby LadyAnnabelle » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:07 am

um.... but what if the Ghost visited the Witch is it just an insta death?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:11 am

LadyAnnabelle wrote:um.... but what if the Ghost visited the Witch is it just an insta death?

The Ghost has no interaction with Witches. (The Lost Spirit flees when it visits a place where a Witch is present)
I think you are swapping the names currently: The Ghost is the protector, while the Lost Spirit is the (kind of) reverse Jester.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby LadyAnnabelle » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:54 am

Jerme wrote:
LadyAnnabelle wrote:um.... but what if the Ghost visited the Witch is it just an insta death?

The Ghost has no interaction with Witches. (The Lost Spirit flees when it visits a place where a Witch is present)
I think you are swapping the names currently: The Ghost is the protector, while the Lost Spirit is the (kind of) reverse Jester.


no no no, i mean, it should have an interaction with the witch, where the Witch will just kill it anyways.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:56 pm

I am now confused. The role which has a lorewise connection to Witches has one: fleeing from a house where either a Witch lives in, or is visiting and dying due to a Witches visit. The Lost Spirits goal is to die in a way, which is not caused by one of their visitors. If visiting a Witch kills a Lost Spirit, it would succeed, but lorewise this does not make sense. Thats why I included the fleeing, when encountering a Witch out of the own home.
Do you understand?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby LadyAnnabelle » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:58 pm

Jerme wrote:I am now confused. The role which has a lorewise connection to Witches has one: fleeing from a house where either a Witch lives in, or is visiting and dying due to a Witches visit. The Lost Spirits goal is to die in a way, which is not caused by one of their visitors. If visiting a Witch kills a Lost Spirit, it would succeed, but lorewise this does not make sense. Thats why I included the fleeing, when encountering a Witch out of the own home.
Do you understand?


Not the spirit, the GHOST.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:42 pm

Sorry, I thought you meant the Lost Spirit, which is the ony role with an interaction with the Witch.
In this case, I would like to know your reason why the Ghost should die visiting a Witch. I do not see a reason for this, but you may convince me.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby LadyAnnabelle » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:52 pm

Because like, it may have been the witches intention to KILL The BG that was the Ghost.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:06 pm

Lorewise, both were bodyguards, one with the intention to die, the other one still desires to protect. I see no reason that the Ghost, the deceased Bodyguard who decides to protect others even after death, should be killed when protecting a Witch. Witches and the Ghost had no interactions in the past and his state was not caused by a Witches curse, but by his own sorrow.
As a small funfact: Origionally I had both concepts planned for the same role, but was not sure which of them I should take, because of that both lores are rather similar.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby VoidRuler » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:14 pm

Jerme wrote:Lorewise, both were bodyguards, one with the intention to die, the other one still desires to protect. I see no reason that the Ghost, the deceased Bodyguard who decides to protect others even after death, should be killed when protecting a Witch. Witches and the Ghost had no interactions in the past and his state was not caused by a Witches curse, but by his own sorrow.
As a small funfact: Origionally I had both concepts planned for the same role, but was not sure which of them I should take, because of that both lores are rather similar.


The Ghosts' lore makes sense with his role and gives depth to the idea.
I see Lost Spirit as a Bodyguard who had succeeded and wants to die in honor of it. Which somewhat goes along with his lore.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:30 am

VoidRuler wrote:
Jerme wrote:Lorewise, both were bodyguards, one with the intention to die, the other one still desires to protect. I see no reason that the Ghost, the deceased Bodyguard who decides to protect others even after death, should be killed when protecting a Witch. Witches and the Ghost had no interactions in the past and his state was not caused by a Witches curse, but by his own sorrow.
As a small funfact: Origionally I had both concepts planned for the same role, but was not sure which of them I should take, because of that both lores are rather similar.


The Ghosts' lore makes sense with his role and gives depth to the idea.
I see Lost Spirit as a Bodyguard who had succeeded and wants to die in honor of it. Which somewhat goes along with his lore.

Interesting point of view. As stated before both had the same origin, which made both being a failed Bodyguard, but after this their goal goes in different directions:
- The Lost Spirit desires to rid itself from the Witches curse and finally pass on, so it seek death.
- The Ghost seeks redemption before passing on, but he does not want to be seen, to not scare those he protects.

I like your percetion of the Lost Spirits lore, VoidRuler. Any suggestions, how I could change its lore to picture this part more?
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