Lost Spirit and Ghost

Old Role Ideas

What of the roles needs more tweaking

Nothing (Ghost)
59
22%
Nothing (Lost Spirit)
61
23%
Alignment (Ghost) -> comment
16
6%
Alignment (Lost Spirit) -> comment
13
5%
Abilites/Attributes (Ghost) -> comment
26
10%
Abilites/Attributes (Lost Spirit) -> comment
21
8%
Goal (Ghost) -> comment
14
5%
Goal (Lost Spirit) -> comment
16
6%
Investigation results (Ghost) -> comment
24
9%
Investigation results (Lost Spirit) -> comment
17
6%
 
Total votes : 267

Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:30 am

I did not know the Marshal when I created the Ghost.
May I receive a further elaboration of your previous post?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby RetralMega » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:58 pm

As for Lost Spirit, based on the attributes, it seems rather over powered. If a Vigilante shoots the Lost Spirit, they gain night immunity for that night and the next? Seems little over the top to me.

As for the ghost, it's seems even more OP.
The ghost is an Escort-Marshall, which is just far too OP on its own.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:00 pm

The Lost Spirit needs to actively search for their death and does not have to wait until someone kills them...
In contrast to the Marshal, the ghost does not scare any Escorts, Transporters or any non killing Mafia roles away.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:21 am

I do not want this thread to die (and I have used the Bumb-button already), so I request to receive more opinions towards this role
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby tendedrex » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:40 am

I think that the lost spirit should win if they are kill period.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:58 am

@ tendedrex: The Lost Spirit does win upon being killed, but there have to be some special conditions for the role to be victorious otherwise it would be way to easy to win with. If you mean something else with your post, then please elaborate.

Update: I replaced the unique roleblocked notification with the default one.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby JazzMusicStops » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:20 am

I like the LS
Ghost seems like A JAilor, minus the killing and Night-chat
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:55 pm

@Jammy I see you point regarding the Ghost, I haven't seen the role that way, but there are some minor differences: The Ghosts target can still be transported and blackmailed, but they do not receive an attack notification, while the Ghost does. Additionally I made the ghost recently less confirmable by giving him the default notification. Indeed it is similar, but still different. It was said it was similar to the Marshal, so it is kind of a a mix between Marshall, Jailor and a Werewolf escort?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:36 am

Bumping for Feedback manually siucne bumpbutton was used already.
I do not want this to die :c
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Raetah » Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:39 pm

Ghost:
Comes from a protective variation of "visit someone to cancel the other visits". So it's basically a roleblocker that aims for any potential visitor of his target. In this case you limited it to just evil intentions while also roleblocking the target itself. I don't have much to say about this, I could see the concept of roleblocking visitors of a target working well as a role. What I don't know is what is actually better to incorporate in the game, your version or the version of another person. And I also think that there are plenty of role concepts that should be incorporated before this one. But other than that, seems okay.

Lost Spirit:
Let's be honest, I have a particular problem with Neutral Roles right now. I always see the game as a Ranked perspective the three neutral cathegories, Killing, Evil and Benign are included in the role list. However those alignments and the roles they contain have to be adjusted. Right now your role would not fit in what I consider an ideal Neutral Benign role. And I would label it in a 4th type neutral role. However Ignoring that, I don't particularly like the concept of the role for various reasons. First of all, I feel that role is perhaps too complex, roles that are simple are always easier to apply, that doesn't mean that complex roles can't be good but in this particular case, Lost spirit has plenty of different night interaction with different roles, I don't think there is another role like that in the game except for Jailor. But that's the thing we are comparing Jailor, the ultimate town powerhouse to a Neutral. Another thing that makes me uncomfortable is that some of those interactions come from very cuestionable reasons, such as perhaps the lore of the character. This makes Witch a counter to this role and it makes Lost Spirit to become a Counter of Arsonist or Arsonist a counter of Lost Spirit depending in the situation. i don't really like much of this Role Idea.

Another thing that I don't like about the Lost Spirit is that is a very one dimensional role, all of the current roles of town of salem if they are in the current ranked role list have to deal an interact with the other alignments in the game. This one seems to have a higher potential to skip those and win. You even removed his last will in some situations.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:05 am

To the Ghost: You got the concept pretty well, every visiting Killing-role will be roleblocked, but Sk only kills the Ghost if he is targetted, not as a visitor.

Lost Spirit:
I started this role as a reverse Jester, but gave it a higher difficulty than just "die in the night", so it must actively search for a cause of death.
For the alignment; Benign is the most fitting one, since Evils need to harm the town to succeed in their goal and it does not kill.
The comparison with the Jailor is interesting and I have not given a thought of that, but I see your point of too much complexity, do you have any ideas how I can imrpove on that?
I am a fan of lores in general, so I included this little "easteregg" in the concept, but I could remove the killing part in order to make the Witch less of an hardcounter.
The same goes for the Arsonist: A spirit is unable to burn (except for any alcoholic ones), so the Arso cannot kill it neither per visit now via ignite.
The Lost Spirit needs either a lucky guess and win early, or needs to read people in order be successful, the interactions with others are still required to win.
The missing displayal of a Last Will was for protective reasons, since a LS could note who they visited when --> So its killer is could noted in the will.

If you have any ideas of improvements, feel free to post them~
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Kirize12 » Sun May 01, 2016 12:55 pm

To clarify, Lost Spirit needs to visit someone who's actively killing to die?

What about someone who's killing, but doesn't choose to use their ability?

Interaction with Mafioso/GF?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Mon May 09, 2016 3:16 am

Lost Spirit needs to visit and active Town Killing to be successful, while a visited Neutral- or Mafia(Killing) does not need to be active to help the Spirit to win (this would evne work with a non-fullmoon ww)
For the Mafioso/Gf action --> Lost spirit will be successful no matter who of them is visited., currently I am thinking, if the Lost Spirit success should replace the kill or be a "collateral damage".

Opinions?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby BPsycho2 » Thu May 19, 2016 5:00 am

Collateral damage.

Role blocking a killer in a mutually good relation ship doesn't make sense to me
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Wed May 25, 2016 5:59 am

Good, then I can keep the attributes as they are.
Should a Vigilante lose an additional Bullet when lifting the curse of a Lost Spirit, or would the one shot count to let the LS win and additionally kill the original target?
Currently the protection of the Spirit can prevent a death from guilt (over shooting a townmember), should it stay like that, or be removed/upgraded to: cannot die from Jester, giving them a message similar to "Someone held you back" (or the standard message "Your target was immune to your attack")?

Could I also have more feedback to the Ghost role?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby BPsycho2 » Wed May 25, 2016 5:33 pm

Jerme wrote:Good, then I can keep the attributes as they are.
Should a Vigilante lose an additional Bullet when lifting the curse of a Lost Spirit, or would the one shot count to let the LS win and additionally kill the original target? Well, I imagine that if it were a Town Killer, then only three options could happen

Lost Spirit jumps in front of the bullet (Role blocking target, but wasting a charge)
Lost Spirit forces a second shot (Steals 2 Charges, doesn't role block)
Lost Spirit stands behind the target (Nothing, just wins.)

I truly can't decide which.

Currently the protection of the Spirit can prevent a death from guilt (over shooting a townmember), should it stay like that, or be removed/upgraded to: cannot die from Jester, giving them a message similar to "Someone held you back" (or the standard message "Your target was immune to your attack")?
Well. I think it should probably protect against Jester. Meaning both ways.

Jester gets hung, Lost Spirit targets guiltvictim. Results: Jester, Lost Spirit win. Town Member lives
Jester gets hung, Lost Spirit IS the victim. Results: Jester, Lost Spirit win.

These two encourage the Lost Spirit to try to get a Jester hung, risking anonymity for a win, while having to rely on trust. A lot of neutral goals are good with multiple ways to achieve the goal.

Could I also have more feedback to the Ghost role?

I think that a TP shouldn't role block his target, but at the same time, Ghost needs it to not be OP.
So, basically, the Ghost will just live at the Mayor's house.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Wed May 25, 2016 11:50 pm

To the Lost Spirit/Jester interaction: I agree visiting the target of a haunting Jester could make the Lost Spirit win, but I am unsure in that case, since the LS should not win from visiting a suicider (vig-guilt, leaver, and technically the Jester haunt is also a suicide..). If the Spirit is haunted by a Jester themselves they should not win, so I'd say no tho that proposed change.
The Lost spirit won't protect/roleblock someone, so option one is not gong to be added. Now it is the question if deleting another charge to too scum favored, since the LS has already harder option to archieve a victory by winning due to a Town(Killing). And additionally a Vig could have -1 bullets in that case if their last shot makes the LS win...

I think the OP said that the Ghost cannot visit the same target twice in a row. If it is not mentioned there, what is the opinion of this change?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby BPsycho2 » Thu May 26, 2016 4:48 am

The ghost will just jump from mayor, to doing nothing. Then go back.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Tue May 31, 2016 5:38 am

Or, what is way stronger, jump from Mayor to Mayor jailing Jailor back and forth. This way the Ghost protects always 2 people :P
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Migzypoo » Tue May 31, 2016 6:06 am

I feel like ghost is still way too powerfull.
it's like a doctor who also roleblocks at the same time.

I feel like it needs a nerf of some sort... like...
- be unable to vote people up the stand.
- Cannot speak during the day, but can speak to their target at night. (sounds very ghost-like right?)
Or maybe is only able to talk to the medium(maybe other roles who do dead stuff?) through whispers? Where he gets only 1 chance every day to figure out who the medium is. Which means he'll waste a lot of time if there's no medium.
- etc?

these nerfs may seem huge, but having a roleblock + heal/scare evil people away is ridiculously OP.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Tue May 31, 2016 6:26 am

You have interestign ideas, but there is the thing that balance is more important than lore.
- Unable to vote might be fitting the lore, but would harm the balance of the town
- Unable to speak fits lore, but would be firstly frustrating for the player and secondly a closely autoconfirm
- Speaking to Medium: Roledependecy --> No way, 2. Autoconfirmation of a Mediums existance and name
- He is not a Jailor, so there won't be a nightchat

But thank you for your input. I previously had that the Ghost was only able to use the ability 4 times.
Have you seen that the Ghost is unable to visit/protect the same target twice in a row?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Migzypoo » Tue May 31, 2016 6:55 am

I cant seem to find the "the Ghost is unable to visit/protect the same target twice in a row" part. Where did you place it?...
but I'd be ok with that actually. The power of a doc/escort if often that they can target the same person multiple times.
Still feels a bit strong. but it's better.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:24 pm

You are right, it is not added yet.
I thought I did add it, but well thank you for reminding me, that I haven't added it yet.
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Jerme » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:19 pm

Image Image

I still need to crop the abilities of the Ghost a bit more to add "You cannot visit the same target twice"
Any ideas what I can change for that?
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Re: Lost Spirit and Ghost

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:55 pm

-You will know if you scared away a visitor, but your target won't.
If you have a problem with me or anything I do, tell me about it instead of ring passive aggressive. I consider most people here my friends and I'd rather not live in darkness, but try to resolve the situation. I can't hear what you don't say.

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