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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:57 pm
by orangeandblack5
Gooose26 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.

I'd much rather play "find the scum" than "confirm the town". Citizens help with that immensely.

The whole rt cant make claimspace argument you are making is just stupid honestly. It allows you to claim anything, not just claim that you do nothing and hope town believes you. Sure, it is easier to just claim that you do nothing, but there is no skill involved in claiming you do nothing. With random town, we can create claimspace as well as bring in the skill of using deception, something very important in mafia games, in what you claim. Claiming citizen is just trying to hide and hope you don't get caught, which is what leads to confirming the town because there isn't scumreading when you just claim citizen in a game of ToS.

If you want to play find the scum, then you will also have to support my Town (Power) removal as well as Citizen, and also my unknown cause of death change. Silent roleblocking wouldn't hurt but that's not perfect yet. You need to remove confirmability in order to avoid confirm the town games(Town Power/Town Killing/Roleblockers), but you also need to create deception. If there is no deception, the game comes down to whoever leads the town, which leads to massclaiming, which leads to finding town games.

Please stop strawmanning me thanks

Also unknown cause of death is such a no-brainer that it kinda hurts to see TG still tells you how people died

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:41 am
by Gooose26
orangeandblack5 wrote:Please stop strawmanning me thanks

Also unknown cause of death is such a no-brainer that it kinda hurts to see TG still tells you how people died

Wasn't strawmanning but ok?

And at least we agree on something.

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:12 am
by orangeandblack5
Gooose26 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Perfect mechanical balance is entirely unachievable, and I'm not convinced that it's worth scrapping Cits for less Town power variance from role to role.

So what you are saying is, rather than finding balance in everything that we can, you would just prefer that we only find balance in certain aspects of the game because some things are just too much work and fixing everything is "too much work" to do and thus doing work isn't necessary. That's cool and all, but just because you don't care about balance doesn't mean that it isn't needed, and because we need balance we also need this change.


Gooose26 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.

The whole rt cant make claimspace argument you are making is just stupid honestly.

I count two

And yeah, while I see where you are coming from, I am merely unconvinced that power variance depending on who gets what is an actual issue that needs fixing.

We seem to agree on a lot of things though, not just the unknown cause of death. "At least we agree on something" seems a bit strong :P

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:19 pm
by Gooose26
I meant it more as a friendly gesture, that we aren't in total disagreement, but you are right.

And I'll explain why I think it does, there's not much to argue if you are just "merely unconvinced" without proper opinions.

Think of players on a scale of skill, usually this scale can be determined by the ladder but elo isn't efficient enough right now to do that. I'll just use a scale of 1-10, 1 being a bad player and 10 being a great player. Now if we tally up all of the town's skill points together, and it is higher than that of the mafia's, then the town should win. But, there are multipliers to that because there are more town players and because of some town roles being focused on being better/worse. There is no problem with there being less mafia and if it is balanced properly the proportion of each mafia role could give use a formula to determine who should win. If the town is more skilled, then town should win. If the mafia(when proportioned to town) is more skilled, then mafia should win.

So that's the system, town power and citizen ruin this. Town power is proportioned as more powerful than a normal town role, say that a town power role is 2x more powerful than a normal role. That means that the player who rands town power is twice as much power than one. So if a player with the skill of 1 is given town power, then their overall effectiveness would be 2 compared to a player with the skill of 10 with the overall effectiveness of 20. So let's say there were 2 townies: 1 skill and 10 skill, 1 town power and one random town. If the 10 skill player has town power, then the overall effectiveness of town would be 21, but if the 1 skill player has town power then the overall effectiveness of town would be 12.

This should be the same number regardless of what roles are randed, and citizen has the same problem but rather than multiplying your effectiveness it divides it. So this is just clear swing because it is based on rng to determine roles. RNG determines how effective the town is.

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:13 am
by DoonLord
Gooose26 wrote:Think of players on a scale of skill, usually this scale can be determined by the ladder but elo isn't efficient enough right now to do that. I'll just use a scale of 1-10, 1 being a bad player and 10 being a great player. Now if we tally up all of the town's skill points together, and it is higher than that of the mafia's, then the town should win. But, there are multipliers to that because there are more town players and because of some town roles being focused on being better/worse. There is no problem with there being less mafia and if it is balanced properly the proportion of each mafia role could give use a formula to determine who should win. If the town is more skilled, then town should win. If the mafia(when proportioned to town) is more skilled, then mafia should win.


And I guess NK just never wins ever huh. It always hurts me when people forget that this game effectively has 3 factions instead of just 2.

#NKhasrightstoo

*cough

Also totally agree with the OP. We should strive for all town to be equivalent in power (and mafia)

While we are at it should we make random neutral's instead be NB to prevent swing from extra NE's?

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:39 pm
by orangeandblack5
Honestly treating NK as a full-fledged faction is a mistake in my eyes. They exist to speed up the game, not truly to win. Sad but true, and also the reason I'd support removing Neutrals from Ranked entirely.

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:16 pm
by NopeTooFast
no

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:19 pm
by Kirize12
Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:15 pm
by orangeandblack5
Kirize12 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general

Everybody Is Mafia Mafia 2

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:15 pm
by Gooose26
NK is mechanically unbalanced and always will be as long as it remains as a solo faction. Saying it isn’t a faction doesn’t hold a lot of weight in my personal opinion because it wins the same as mafia but cannot win with mafia. The problem is that it can die too easily, and there is no way to stop that without making it impossible to kill. This makes NK swingy, and therefore unbalanced.

If you want fix that then you need to give NK the Witch win condition. Of course, the ranked rolelist would need to be scaled as this would be a direct buff to evils, but it would stop kingmaking and stabilize kpn.

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:56 pm
by orangeandblack5
At that point just go full-on and give Mafia two kills

Although arguably 2 KPN isn't even needed lol

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:24 am
by chitownmvp01
orangeandblack5 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general

Everybody Is Mafia Mafia 2


Nah pit all the neutrals against each other and remove night immunity. Last one standing wins.

Gooose26 wrote:NK is mechanically unbalanced and always will be as long as it remains as a solo faction. Saying it isn’t a faction doesn’t hold a lot of weight in my personal opinion because it wins the same as mafia but cannot win with mafia. The problem is that it can die too easily, and there is no way to stop that without making it impossible to kill. This makes NK swingy, and therefore unbalanced.

If you want fix that then you need to give NK the Witch win condition. Of course, the ranked rolelist would need to be scaled as this would be a direct buff to evils, but it would stop kingmaking and stabilize kpn.


NK winning with Mafia would be sooooooooooo OP, lol.

orangeandblack5 wrote:Honestly treating NK as a full-fledged faction is a mistake in my eyes. They exist to speed up the game, not truly to win. Sad but true, and also the reason I'd support removing Neutrals from Ranked entirely.


Agreed

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:30 am
by Gooose26
Power is something that can easily be adjusted. There is no theory behind it. Obviously, if we give NK the ability to win with mafia, we will not keep the same ranked rolelist as we currently have. That would be overpowered. But what if we removed all of the evil members and left in with just town? Well, then the evils are underpowered. So there's a good middle ground that rests in the middle, and nothing is simply "overpowered" or "underpowered" by looking at face value. My points remain.

Just to be clear, giving the NK the NE goal makes it a second mafia killer, it's just not informed. So yes, mafia would just have 2 kills.

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:04 am
by orangeandblack5
Then why not just actually make it a second Mafia Killer?

For example, sure Arso may win with Mafia, but it either doesn't get any kills or probably takes out a few Mafia in the process as collateral

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:07 pm
by Gooose26
orangeandblack5 wrote:Then why not just actually make it a second Mafia Killer?

For example, sure Arso may win with Mafia, but it either doesn't get any kills or probably takes out a few Mafia in the process as collateral

You can do whatever you want with a change. I’m just simply stating that NK in it’s current state is terrible because it’s a 3rd faction in a game built for 2 factions. If you want it to be a second mafia killer, then do it. If not, I’m sure we could balance around NE killers. That’s not the important part of the argument.

You can use Arso or Werewolf as examples but they are both terrible roles for their respective reasons. Serial Killer is salveagable, but then you should realise that a mafia Serial Killer is just a Godfather that kills roleblockers(which is a bad mechanic that should be removed. So a second mafia killer should just be a Godfather, or we can remove te terrible Godfather/Mafioso mechanic and have 2 mafiosos, which is a lot more balanced.