Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Remove Town Power
22
36%
Remove Citizen
39
64%
 
Total votes : 61

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:21 am

SevenSeven wrote:
ProfessorArceus wrote:
SevenSeven wrote:can i vote no ?

Tell us why, and you can.


cause no

That isn't a reason.
I'm your average British fuckup.
Spoiler:
2:27, 'Fuck up Jeremy Corbyn' ~ The average YouTube comments section.

STRONG AND STABLE GOVERNMENT Y'ALL


FM Stuff
Spoiler: I'm not shameless.
User avatar
ProfessorArceus
Investigator
Investigator
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:28 am
Location: At night, in your bed, at morning, in your closet

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Cirque » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:38 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
Cirque wrote:Before I even want to decide, I think tester games would help. Having one without Citizens, the other without Town Power, and another one that's without both. That's probably a lot to ask but it's just a suggestion, but instead of us just deciding based truly on your argument, we can actually see if it works out. See what I mean?

How do you test skill distribution?

And the argument stands by itself, if you agree with it then there's no reason to not support it.

Mystoc wrote:the problem with town power is Jailor so much obv better than all other town power roles that there's gonna be noticeable win rate differences in games the have jailor and ones that dont

it will feel very bad to get to play as a town power role and not roll jailor i think that's the problem with it

the town power roles should be at equal terms of power so maybe nerf jailor down to the other roles level

You also didn't read my argument. It doesn't matter how balanced each role is, what matters is that the entire alignment is a bad mechanic. You can always make Town (Power) balanced, but it will never be a good alignment.

But my statement still stands, if you want to remove Citizen and Town Power then have a tester game and see how much better the game does. There's no way to test skill distribution if the roles are given at complete random chance.
Image

FM Record: 8 - 1
User avatar
Cirque
Mayor
Mayor
 
Posts: 826
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:20 pm
Location: Netflix

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby polypies73 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:47 pm

ProfessorArceus wrote:
SevenSeven wrote:
ProfessorArceus wrote:
SevenSeven wrote:can i vote no ?

Tell us why, and you can.


cause no

That isn't a reason.


It is.

Becasue i said so.
wow I am cringey
User avatar
polypies73
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:43 am

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:27 am

I love how you try to be funny
Guess what
You aren't funny.

-----
You can't necessarily test skill distribution, but saying "Test it" as your reasoning is pretty weak. Give me a hypothetical response, as I have.
I'm your average British fuckup.
Spoiler:
2:27, 'Fuck up Jeremy Corbyn' ~ The average YouTube comments section.

STRONG AND STABLE GOVERNMENT Y'ALL


FM Stuff
Spoiler: I'm not shameless.
User avatar
ProfessorArceus
Investigator
Investigator
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:28 am
Location: At night, in your bed, at morning, in your closet

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:06 pm

You could test skill distribution by making a 15 player game where 5 players are god players, 5 players are average, and 5 players don’t know what they are doing. Rotate through who gets what and I’ll tell you now that a skilled Jailor will find more scum than a nub Jailor, that’s common sense and I don’t think that needs explaining. The problem is that, the problem is the RNG of how roles are determined. Since there isn’t any other way to give out roles, then we have to make it fair RNG, where the RNG doesn’t determine how effective you can be, but rather the RNG merely determines your alignment and abilities.

The problem with testing this though is how to determine who is a nub, who is average, and who is a god.
Flake wrote:game lasted 1 hour and 23 minutes
User avatar
Gooose26
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:52 pm
Location: Either on the forums, or not

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:25 am

If you want idiots to stop complaining about "muh unfun citizen" just replace the Jailor with a role like Shaman.
User avatar
Schultz128
FM Awards: Creator
FM Awards: Creator
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:26 am

Also why the fuck is the poll completely one sided lmao
User avatar
Schultz128
FM Awards: Creator
FM Awards: Creator
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:27 am

Citizen doesn't effect the Town's effectiveness at all when their main form of killing is the lynch.
User avatar
Schultz128
FM Awards: Creator
FM Awards: Creator
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:38 am

Schultz128 wrote:Also why the fuck is the poll completely one sided lmao

Yeah what the fuck is that poll
Gooose allow something else
Schultz128 wrote:Citizen doesn't effect the Town's effectiveness at all when their main form of killing is the lynch.

It does. In a fast paced game like Town of Salem, you can't rely on scumreading and whatever the fuck you do in FM. Scumreading is significantly harder or less significant. Yes, the Citizen will have more time to act, but TI results and TPr protections are more valuable than scumreading which can't be done all that well. A Citizen reduces Town's effectiveness when you could have a Sheriff. You get solid results which are infinitely more reliable.
I'm your average British fuckup.
Spoiler:
2:27, 'Fuck up Jeremy Corbyn' ~ The average YouTube comments section.

STRONG AND STABLE GOVERNMENT Y'ALL


FM Stuff
Spoiler: I'm not shameless.
User avatar
ProfessorArceus
Investigator
Investigator
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:28 am
Location: At night, in your bed, at morning, in your closet

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:39 am

Citizens are meant to take heat off the Town PRs
User avatar
Schultz128
FM Awards: Creator
FM Awards: Creator
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:47 am

I'm not entirely sure about that
But either way, it affects the Town's effectiveness.
I'm your average British fuckup.
Spoiler:
2:27, 'Fuck up Jeremy Corbyn' ~ The average YouTube comments section.

STRONG AND STABLE GOVERNMENT Y'ALL


FM Stuff
Spoiler: I'm not shameless.
User avatar
ProfessorArceus
Investigator
Investigator
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:28 am
Location: At night, in your bed, at morning, in your closet

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:39 pm

Schultz128 wrote:Also why the fuck is the poll completely one sided lmao

Not a poll, it's a petition. You can sign it(vote it) or you can walk away, a petition is one-sided.

Schultz128 wrote:Citizen doesn't effect the Town's effectiveness at all when their main form of killing is the lynch.

That's the problem, they aren't effective.

"We need to make the Town 1-tiered, in order to ensure that RNG does not determine skill distribution, as talked about with Town (Power). I urge you to consider that Citizen is just as bad as Town (Power). Think of yourself knowing who the mafia is due to great scumreading, but not being able to do anything about it. You could investigate them if you were Town (Investigative), you could attack them if you were Town (Killing), or maybe you could roleblock, vote them up, etc. as Town (Support), but you are stuck as merely a Citizen, wanting to lynch somebody with no proof. It isn't a fun role to play and has bad mechanics, please get it out of TG immediately."

Schultz128 wrote:Citizens are meant to take heat off the Town PRs

So what you are saying is that some players are rolled into being a punching bag, while others are meant to actually do work, sure this is fair when you take out the first problem which is that some palauers might want to play the game rather than just try to be a target, but what if somebody who rolls Citizen is more skilled than those who are normal town or town power? Well, then we have a problem with skill distribution.

“The problem is the way it distributes skill. A faction needs to be a combination of all the player's skill put together. If you are the mafia, and all 3 players know what to claim, when to claim, who to visit, and how to make a great fake will, then you should win over a town who is built upon 1-2 good players who scumread the mafia with the rest of the town not voting at all. However, with Town (Power), this isn't always the case. If one of these so-called "good players" gets Jailor, they kill out the mafia. But if one of these so-called "nubs" gets Jailor, you get a dead townie and a murdered Jailor. Just think about the amount of damage a Jailor does in each of your games personally, have you ever won a game by killing the evils as Jailor, or have you ever lost it all because the Jailor couldn't even write a will? This is what we call swing, where the amount of skill in the role completely changes the game.”
Flake wrote:game lasted 1 hour and 23 minutes
User avatar
Gooose26
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:52 pm
Location: Either on the forums, or not

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:55 pm

You don't need abilities to use skill.
User avatar
Schultz128
FM Awards: Creator
FM Awards: Creator
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:41 pm

Schultz128 wrote:You don't need abilities to use skill.

Yes but abilities supported by skill will always be better than no abilities with skill. Leaving it up to your teammates to do their part of using abilities isn’t very fun or fair for you as a citizen
Flake wrote:game lasted 1 hour and 23 minutes
User avatar
Gooose26
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:52 pm
Location: Either on the forums, or not

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:20 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:You don't need abilities to use skill.

Yes but abilities supported by skill will always be better than no abilities with skill. Leaving it up to your teammates to do their part of using abilities isn’t very fun or fair for you as a citizen

With everyone having an ability the game gets too chaotic and swingy with too much of an emphasis on pushing buttons rather than day play. Citizens are needed in Ranked for the game to be more competitive during the day. Also, with 10 competent Town members using abilities each night, scum have little to no chance.
#SaveTheMayor

Tired of trying to play discord Mafia games and not getting enough people? Join Town of Morons, a server for small, fun Mafia games today!

Image

TG Balancer
alex1234321
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:20 pm
Location: Somewhere (UTC-5)

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:36 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:You don't need abilities to use skill.

Yes but abilities supported by skill will always be better than no abilities with skill. Leaving it up to your teammates to do their part of using abilities isn’t very fun or fair for you as a citizen

With everyone having an ability the game gets too chaotic and swingy with too much of an emphasis on pushing buttons rather than day play. Citizens are needed in Ranked for the game to be more competitive during the day. Also, with 10 competent Town members using abilities each night, scum have little to no chance.

I question if you've ever played a game of TOS. If you removed Jailor the only time that mafia doesn't kill is when a target is protected, which is unlikely anyway. Chaotic? Well I guess you could say organized chaos, 10 players are n1, 7-9 is n2, and by n3 you are likely done to 6-. I find that by n4 I already know who everybody is as evil and as town you have your confirmed leaders and plans. Swingy? Well, now I think you are just blurting out bad things, in what ways are 10 townies with abilities swingy? Because it's organized chaos, everybody has a role that they are fulfilling or not, as citizen your role is to vote rather than to help at night.

Too much of an emphasis on pushing buttons rather than day play? Well, day play is lynching and scumreading. Scumreading can come from reading night plays, scumreading comes from claims that are based on night plays, lynching is based on night plays and scumreading, You need to understand that the night is 50% of the game, and day is also 50% of the game, denying even 25% of the town the ability to play 50% of the game is unfair.
Flake wrote:game lasted 1 hour and 23 minutes
User avatar
Gooose26
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:52 pm
Location: Either on the forums, or not

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:38 pm

Citizen is the best role that can be added to improve the health of Ranked, but it will never happen because people care about fun over balance.
User avatar
Schultz128
FM Awards: Creator
FM Awards: Creator
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:40 pm

Schultz128 wrote:Citizen is the best role that can be added to improve the health of Ranked, but it will never happen because people care about fun over balance.

No, it's not. I'm glad that you know how to debate.

Don't forget to support stupid statements with your stupid reasons, so I can tell you why you are stupid.

Although you are right that it will never be added into ToS, the devs have to look out for public interest and since the ranked system isn't very strong then the ranked community isn't big enough to merit Citizen's addition. But again why would you say Citizen is healthy for Ranked? Scumreading is already a basis for all non-ti roles, and ti roles are still more powerful when proper scureading is used. The Ranked community needs no help with scumreading.
Flake wrote:game lasted 1 hour and 23 minutes
User avatar
Gooose26
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:52 pm
Location: Either on the forums, or not

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Cirque » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:05 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:Citizen is the best role that can be added to improve the health of Ranked, but it will never happen because people care about fun over balance.

No, it's not. I'm glad that you know how to debate.

Don't forget to support stupid statements with your stupid reasons, so I can tell you why you are stupid.

People's opinions aren't stupid.
Image

FM Record: 8 - 1
User avatar
Cirque
Mayor
Mayor
 
Posts: 826
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:20 pm
Location: Netflix

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:12 pm

Cirque wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:Citizen is the best role that can be added to improve the health of Ranked, but it will never happen because people care about fun over balance.

No, it's not. I'm glad that you know how to debate.

Don't forget to support stupid statements with your stupid reasons, so I can tell you why you are stupid.

People's opinions aren't stupid.

Of course they are.

What if my opinion was that all forumers have no rights and that people who don't believe that Citizen is terrible are terrible people? Well, you should definitely tell me that my opinion is stupid, because my opinion is stupid, especially when I don't support it. Now if you do support it at least a bit rationally, whether I agree or disagree I'll give you the respect of domestic debate and a little less namecalling.

But when you just say "Citizen is amazing", well, I get a little triggered and you'll lose my respect.
Flake wrote:game lasted 1 hour and 23 minutes
User avatar
Gooose26
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:52 pm
Location: Either on the forums, or not

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:01 am

Solola - 12/29/2017
> “Greatest Balancer”
> Thinks Citizen and TPo is bad

ProfessorArceus - 12/29/2017
>They are bad
>Very, very bad

Solola - 12/29/2017
Firstly, swing from player skill when using a weak or powerful role is good as that’s literally what the game centres around

Secondly, Citizens are needed in games to enable scum to have a quick and easy claim, therefore prolonging the life of scum and also enabling the option of have two fields of claiming, PR and Vanilla, which develops strategy in claims with the balancing of both claim pools

Thirdly, Citizens promote the act of scumreading which whatever way you put it is the core idea for Mafia based games

Blah blah blah, no one will play with Citizens. I prefer balance over ethics and this is the way you make a good, balanced game

ProfessorArceus - 12/29/2017
That's just wrong
See
It isn't only swing from player skill. With TPow and Citizen in a 15p game, death is swingy
You might kill the role which everyone needs
Or the role which just doesn't matter much
This is extremely swingy as TPow promotes the idea of relying on the slot. Even if it doesn't, its death will be more harmful than that of a Citizen - or any other role.
The Citizen's death, however, will be much less significant and will affect the Town much less.
Quick and easy claim? Just try your best to eliminate confirmability and then balance Investigator results.
It promotes the at of scumreading, yes, but ultimately they're objectively weaker than every other role(edited)
Citizens aren't boring. They're unbalanced.

Güüse - Last Sunday at 3:47 AM
They're*
Was the mistake i believe
Town Power and Citizen are both bad by bad mechanics due to the way roles are handed out, RNG. Everybody is randomly given a role, regardless of skill. And since skill is manipulated in multiplier with the use of Town Power and Citizen, they are bad mechanics. Now, I want to make it clear that skill should NOT be manipulated in any way, it should be left alone to be free and do it's job, determine who wins. If you are more skilled as a faction, you should always be the winning faction. With Town Power/CItizen, and it's manipulation of skill, you may find that a faction with many good townies and 1 bad townie who gets Town Power may still lose to an average mafia, or maybe 1 good townie with Town Power and many bad townies will win against a decent mafia. Just think of Jailor, he comes out as Jailor and TP stays on him, throughout the following 3-4 days he can execute the entire mafia as long as he scumreads well. Or just think of Jailor, he doesn't ever come out, executes another townie for not metagaming and doesn't even make a will. This is SWING, and although swing can be balanced, RNG swing is not, and the same problem is found in Citizen, but on the other side of the ability spectrum. If there was a way to control the way roles are determined to prevent this, then I would easily accept Town Power and Citizen as good systems, but as it stands Town Power and Citizen are swung by RNG, and for that they are broken.

Güüse - Last Sunday at 4:05 AM
A common argument I've heard is that we should assume that everybody is of similar skill level, but this is not a good assumption. ELO does NOT mean skill, a good player could easily find themselves to busy to play after years of grinding to the top and would be stuck at the bottom of the ELO spectrum, thus allowing this diverse spectrum of skill to exist, with no fault of his/her own. Or what about the beginning of the reset, when everybody is brought back to bottom, they will be forced to play with players above their level or below their level, and with the usage of Town Power and Citizen, we cannot ensure proper skill distribution. We can't compensate for situations like these, meaning that we can't assume that everybody would be of an equal skill level.(edited)
(By "common" I mean Solola and Para's defense ^)

Solola - Last Sunday at 5:00 PM
I said that skill level averages out
And it doesn’t matter if TPo or Citizen is killed and it’s swingy with how much power loss is lost by the Town as TPrs should prioritise protecting powerful roles anyway and scum should be awarded for killing high power roles. It makes no difference, except raising strategy for players

ProfessorArceus - Last Sunday at 5:13 PM
So you're saying that the skill distribution averages out? Please, do fuck off if you think that true
Firstly, swing from player skill when using a weak or powerful role is good as that’s literally what the game centres around

Secondly, Citizens are needed in games to enable scum to have a quick and easy claim, therefore prolonging the life of scum and also enabling the option of have two fields of claiming, PR and Vanilla, which develops strategy in claims with the balancing of both claim pools

Thirdly, Citizens promote the act of scumreading which whatever way you put it is the core idea for Mafia based games

Blah blah blah, no one will play with Citizens. I prefer balance over ethics and this is the way you make a good, balanced game
(edited)
Firstly, no it isn't. An idiot playing as Jailor and a good player playing as a Citizen isn't what the game is centered around.

Citizens improve claimspace, maybe, but again - make roles less confirmable and boom; you've fixed the fuck out of that problem.

It promotes scumreading, yes, but you scumread anyway no matter which role you are. If you're Vigilante, you scumread who to shoot.
If you're Escort, you scumread who to roleblock.
If you're Doctor, you scumread who NOT to heal.
TIs scumread who to confirm and investigate.

Solola - Last Sunday at 5:50 PM
Skill distribution does average out over the many games that occur

Güüse - Last Sunday at 6:19 PM
how does it average out?
explain to me how the best player in the game getting Jailor would average out to the worst player getting Jailor(edited)

ProfessorArceus - Last Sunday at 6:25 PM
Over the games that occur?
Assuming that there's an equal amount of newbies and veterans?
Oh and we don't balance out for 500 games
We balance out for 1 game
Then we ever the best game

Güüse - Last Sunday at 7:48 PM
let him answer xD
@Solola

Solola - Last Sunday at 9:00 PM
Ok, so let’s say that there are 500 games of ToS played. In a few games, someone playing as TPo may be like awesome and mega experienced, same for lower skilled. However, as you get further into the middle of skill, there more people that are classed as this, therefore the middle skill value, or average skill value has the highest frequency of players. Due to this, occurrences on the far ends of the spectrum are anomalous and therefore are discounted in further development. So, essentially balancing the game on these anomalies is stupid because there will be so few occurrences where this happens and making changes then for rare chances and not for the majority is stupid

ProfessorArceus - Last Sunday at 9:21 PM
Let's see - no.
New players are coming in more often than middle players
And why does Ranked have so many complaints?
Because of average players?
No.

ProfessorArceus - Last Sunday at 9:21 PM
The majority is average, of course, but it's still swingy
Oh look
75% of the time a role does nothing
25% of the time it can kill the Town n1
That's swingy, no?
Or a role relies on visits and gets visits 50% of the time
It's still swingy
WW - swingy since it relies on visitors. Some assmath proves it gets a visitor 51% of the time
Still swingy
Our aim is to have no anomolies, no?

January 1, 2018


Solola - Last Monday at 7:03 AM
It doesn’t matter where the middle is, what I mean is you shouldn’t balance for anomalous occurrences

ProfessorArceus - Last Monday at 8:09 AM
They aren't anomalous
They're still swingy
Skill distribution among roles should not affect the game
They aren't anomalous when they aren't that much of a minority

Solola - Last Monday at 8:55 AM
They are quite a bit of the minority(edited)
It’s like implementing something that helps the Mafia when all of them are doused, its rare, it’s unnecessary and most of all it’s stupid

ProfessorArceus - Last Monday at 9:03 AM
No
No it isn't
Ranked has complaints
Why?
Because of shit players
It's not a one off complaint
You have many many complaints
And you're still neglecting the swing in deaths
Night one, Mafia kills TPow
This is a much bigger loss for Town
Night one, Mafia kills Cit
Who gives a flying fuck
Sure, town's weapon is majority
But TPow Vs Cit
Well one is objectively better
And you're neglecting balance
Having PURPOSEFULLY strong alingments and PURPOSEFULLY weak alignments neglects the idea of balance
So maybe they'd work in the odd game fine
But in the long run they just don't work.
I mean you support this objective weakness in citizens
So - why do we try and balance out the alignments? Or do we not?

Solola - Last Monday at 4:06 PM
Scum should be rewarded for killing TPo, mirroring the fact that Town should be punished for not protecting TPo and vice versa for Citizens
If you’re then gonna say that omg with N1 kills you have no way of knowing who you’re killing is a TPo or Citizen, N1 kills are swingy anyway as depending on how many scum and town die N1, it will have an immediate toll on the outcome

Güüse - Last Monday at 7:50 PM
I see your argument. Since it averages out over many games, it is a good system. Now I'll try to break your argument
Let's say there was a role that determined who wins the game n1, it gives each faction a 33% chance to win.
People during the game feel completely screwed over because they had no ability to do anything about losing, but overall it is still fair as a balanced role
Does that make it a balanced role?

Solola - Last Monday at 9:58 PM
No because it can override wins which is so so broken

January 2, 2018


Güüse - Last Tuesday at 1:32 AM
no it doesnt, it is just extremely powerful
you can still win, if it doesnt role

Solola - Last Tuesday at 9:09 AM
No, it decides which alignment wins...

Güüse - Last Tuesday at 6:39 PM
yes, because it is extremely strong
But it averages out, so it's a good system

Solola - Last Tuesday at 6:43 PM
No because no role should decide who wins

Fixed name - Last Tuesday at 6:43 PM
Good point
Once the role decides who wins, there's a 3% chance it can fail
Now it's okay, right?
Since it's not always going to decide who wins
It's just a really good chance that they will

Solola - Last Tuesday at 8:53 PM
No because that’s RNG and a role should never decide who wins

Fixed name - Last Tuesday at 9:54 PM
Is it not RNG which decides who gets the best roles and who gets the worst on the same team?
Is a great Jailor carrying the Town not one role deciding who wins?

Güüse - Last Tuesday at 10:11 PM
Rolelist RNG is ok with you, why not this RNG?

Solola - Last Tuesday at 11:07 PM
3% it can fail, that’s RNG
Also, it’s decided within the game, which is different to outside the game
Plus, your can’t role roles any other way except RNG

January 3, 2018


Güüse - Last Wednesday at 12:10 AM
rolelist rng is rng
you cant, which is why it needs to be rolling equalling across the board
and that's my point

Solola - Last Wednesday at 11:01 AM
Rolelist RNG is good RNG as it’s not RNG in the game
It’s like a game of Tetris, the game randomly gives you different blocks for you to organise into a line, the different blocks you are given is like rolelist RNG. However, the the game then gave you a 40% chance of deleting a line or a 10% or only moving right, this limits the game of what you can do without your control and it essentially becomes less of a game and more about the numbers rolled in the RNG

It’s fine to play with the random pieces you get, however randomly setting the mechanics and abilities the pieces hold make it more programmed than played

I still don’t know wtf you are arguing for now, rolelist RNG does not negatively effect the game, especially when all the roles are the same power level (keep in mind that TPo and Citizen are only rolled when their sub alignment is stated, and that all roles in TPo have an equal power level, therefore nothing negatively impacts the game with rolelist RNG because you know in advance when you place TPo in the rolelist you’ll get a powerful Town role)

Fixed name - Last Wednesday at 2:58 PM
Fine, fine
There will be several roles
One for each faction
And then for every faction role, one that will fail and one that wont
So it's still rolelist RNG that decides whether one faction gets to win or doesn't
You can't say "Oh they know there's a TPo role thus it's okay"
Because 14 out of 15 players are not in control of that
15 out of 15 if they're playing a mode with a pre-determined rolelist

Solola - Last Wednesday at 6:17 PM
If everyone single role is at the same balance level (except TPo and Citizen), there should be no swing from the rolelist


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
User avatar
BS4125
Christmas 2018 Winner
Christmas 2018 Winner
 
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 12:10 pm
Location: Nextdoor to my neighbour

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BlazinIce » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:07 am

Tl;Dr?
How to get unlimited Town Points in Town of Salem
I'm a forum regular. You may see me in Role Ideas (critiquing bad roles), Testing Grounds, Feedback, Suggestions, or Forum Games. I'm also in ToS as Noone.

Mortician -A Neutral Evil Janitor that buries lynches. Has over 100 supporters!
Gossiper -A Neutral Evil role that gives a player valuable information about another player each night.
BlazinIce
Vigilante
Vigilante
 
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:09 am
Location: In the computer

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:23 am

BlazinIce wrote:Tl;Dr?

There’s no tl;dr, it’s just a conversation of disagreement


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
User avatar
BS4125
Christmas 2018 Winner
Christmas 2018 Winner
 
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 12:10 pm
Location: Nextdoor to my neighbour

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:27 pm

BlazinIce wrote:Tl;Dr?

If you don’t read everything you’ll end up making the same argument as someone else, but sure here’s a tl;dr -

Arc and i agree that Town (Power) is bad because it distributes skill irrationally with other town roles, and because giving roles is based on RNG, Town (Power) is mechanically swingy, due to RNG.

Solola thinks that Town (Power) being based on RNG isn’t bad, because if you average out many games then all players would equally get the role so it dventually evens out fine.

Arc and I agreed that we should be balancing to make sure that each game is good, not many games put together average out, but Solola disagreed.
Flake wrote:game lasted 1 hour and 23 minutes
User avatar
Gooose26
Retributionist
Retributionist
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:52 pm
Location: Either on the forums, or not

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:17 pm

Güüse - Today at 7:17 PM
What’s the point of playing a game if all you’re doing is math?
That’s what you do in tetris
Im arguing that if roles arent going to be equal, we need a better system that judt RNG to give out roles, as it isn’t fair
Do you understand my multiplier argument?

Solola - Today at 8:00 PM
Maths has nothing to do with tetris what
Roles are equal (or should be) in each sub-alignment. Sub-alignments which have a different power average to the constant should not be able to be rolled in the Random [Alignment], Take TPo, Citizens and MH as an example. This therefore means every game is equal
You can use RNG to assign roles if every role has the same effect as every other role, therefore zero swing as nothing changes. There is no multiplier argument if everything is equal

Fixed name - Today at 8:01 PM
But Town Power and Citizens mean that every role does not, in fact, have the same effect as every other role
Maybe within the same alignments
But that's not the same as "The same effect as every other role"
There is swing, as in do you get an ability, a really good ability, or no ability
Imagine a game like Call of Duty, where everyone starts with a normal sidearm
This sidearm is your scumreading
Everyone can do it, it can kill people fine
Some people only get the sidearm
Some people get an assault rifle
More likely to kill people, it's your night ability
Then some people get a minigum
Minigun*
It's all distributed randomly
So while you have to use your sidearm to kill people, which is still effective
Other people get to mow down the enemies much faster and more effectively
And you're not even guaranteed a shot at the minigun
It's all totally random
And not equal or fair

Solola - Today at 8:04 PM
It doesn’t matter if TPo and Citizen doesn’t have the same effect as any other role, because if you place TPo in a rolelist, you know you’re getting a powerful town role and therefore can balance around that(edited)

Fixed name - Today at 8:04 PM
But you can balance around most things
That doesn't mean they're okay, or good, or as fun
What if we put Werewolf into the rolelist and made it confirmed, but gave it two different rampages every single night?
So it can attack two houses and all visitors there
We can balance around that
But that doesn't mean playing as a weaker role is going to be as fun
See, that "You can balance around it" argument is inherently flawed, BS
It's you saying that there is something that needs to be balanced around
Rather than balancing from the start

Solola - Today at 8:07 PM
You agree that if TPo and Citizen cannot roll in RT and if every role in every sub-Alignment is balanced, there’s no swing, right?

Fixed name - Today at 8:08 PM
No, I said I disagree
Because it's swing whether you get Citizen or TPo
That's okay when they're generally equal
There is some swing like that we can't avoid
Somebody has to be an evildoer
And they're just more likely to lose
But within the same alignment, we don't have to make them pray for the good roles
This isn't FM where you have days to scumread and go over

Solola - Today at 8:09 PM
Oh, player skill swing, it may be a small problem but I still think the benefits outweigh it(edited)

Fixed name - Today at 8:09 PM
I don't, since playing a Citizen is going to be dull for a lot of people
And will most likely make them quit a lot*
*Don't use the argument that good players wont quit, that doesn't mean it's fun

Solola - Today at 8:10 PM
I said before that I think Balance > Ethics is better

Fixed name - Today at 8:10 PM
Balance needs to be equal to fun, though
And there's a divide between fun and balance when Town Power and Citizen is introduced

Solola - Today at 8:10 PM
Citizens aren’t going to get into ToS, Shape said so

Fixed name - Today at 8:10 PM
And that's a good thing, it is
But now we need to make sure the same is said for Town Power

Solola - Today at 8:10 PM
But still, if you want a balanced game, Citizens are the way to go

Fixed name - Today at 8:10 PM
A balanced game where scumreading is meaningful
It is useful in ToS, sure

Solola - Today at 8:11 PM
Yes

Fixed name - Today at 8:11 PM
But it's not a long enough game for that to matter enough
The difference between ToS and FM in this regard is that scumreading can make up for a lack of power in FM
But in ToS it's not like that

Solola - Today at 8:11 PM
So in order to make it work, you increase the day length and night length

Fixed name - Today at 8:11 PM
You don't have the hours to pour over people's quotewalls and such
No, that's not enough

Solola - Today at 8:11 PM
Again, Balance > Ethics on this

Fixed name - Today at 8:11 PM
We can't make ToS take longer than an hour or two at most
FM can give you literal days to go over this stuff, so we can't compare that to an hour or two

Solola - Today at 8:12 PM
Yeh I say the limit is an hour

Fixed name - Today at 8:12 PM
And that's not an hour to go over notes

Solola - Today at 8:12 PM
And allow multiple game modes where time lengths change

Fixed name - Today at 8:13 PM
Things like Citizens and Town Power just aren't the solution for ToS
There are enough changes from FM to ToS that make some things feasible in one and just not workable in the other

Solola - Today at 8:14 PM
In a balanced world, where ethics don’t matter, I think TPo and Citizens would be fine

Fixed name - Today at 8:14 PM
In a balanced world, where fun doesn't matter and we can make changes that should reasonably kill the game, I agree
The game would need to be made much longer which goes against the spirit of things imo

Solola - Today at 8:14 PM
Yeh

Fixed name - Today at 8:15 PM
And we'd need to blatantly say "Yeah, you might get the best of the best role!"
"Or you get stuck doing nothing but reading. And it's not going to be a good read either."
We're not in a world where fun doesn't matter

Solola - Today at 8:15 PM
I don’t see people sitting down to play a day long game as Citizen

Fixed name - Today at 8:15 PM
So Town Power and Citizens wont work for ToS
You're not going to make it a world where fun doesn't matter either
Since this is a game, and games are about fun
Even competitive ones

Solola - Today at 8:15 PM
Yeh Ik that

Fixed name - Today at 8:15 PM
Because the only thing you win is fun
So stop championing Town Power and Citizens
Admit they just don't work in this world of ours
When someone mentions them for ToS, you should just say "No"
Not "No but with changes yes"
Because those changes are unreasonable

Solola - Today at 8:17 PM
I’ll say “No for ToS, however if fun and ethics did not matter then yes”

Fixed name - Today at 8:17 PM
You're tacking on unnecessary stuff at the end there that just makes you sound like a robot
"Fun? Ethics? No, balance."
Actually, that's a fine fit for TG, especially with the view of NC
Like how people just yesterday or so were calling it unnecessary and a waste of time
Fun is not a waste of time
In fact, without fun, I doubt TG or ToS would exist

Solola - Today at 8:18 PM
Hmm

Fixed name - Today at 8:18 PM
So going out of your way to make some fun isn't going to hurt anyone
And I was wrong earlier
I said fun and balance need to be equal
Fun is much more important than balance
If everyone is having fun, then fuck you can have whatever roles you want
Ones that do literally nothing and ones that carry the game solo
But it needs to be fun for everyone
Or at least as close to that as possible
Which may lead to balanced gameplay in some games, like ToS barring chaos modes
Other games, fun means fuck balance and let them go be rambo, though that's usually reserved for solo play


Spoiler:
lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
User avatar
BS4125
Christmas 2018 Winner
Christmas 2018 Winner
 
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 12:10 pm
Location: Nextdoor to my neighbour

PreviousNext

Return to Testing Grounds

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest