Solola - 12/29/2017> “Greatest Balancer”
> Thinks Citizen and TPo is bad
ProfessorArceus - 12/29/2017>They are bad
>Very, very bad
Solola - 12/29/2017Firstly, swing from player skill when using a weak or powerful role is good as that’s literally what the game centres around
Secondly, Citizens are needed in games to enable scum to have a quick and easy claim, therefore prolonging the life of scum and also enabling the option of have two fields of claiming, PR and Vanilla, which develops strategy in claims with the balancing of both claim pools
Thirdly, Citizens promote the act of scumreading which whatever way you put it is the core idea for Mafia based games
Blah blah blah, no one will play with Citizens. I prefer balance over ethics and this is the way you make a good, balanced game
ProfessorArceus - 12/29/2017That's just wrong
See
It isn't only swing from player skill. With TPow and Citizen in a 15p game, death is swingy
You might kill the role which everyone needs
Or the role which just doesn't matter much
This is extremely swingy as TPow promotes the idea of relying on the slot. Even if it doesn't, its death will be more harmful than that of a Citizen - or any other role.
The Citizen's death, however, will be much less significant and will affect the Town much less.
Quick and easy claim? Just try your best to eliminate confirmability and then balance Investigator results.
It promotes the at of scumreading, yes, but ultimately they're objectively weaker than every other role(edited)
Citizens aren't boring. They're unbalanced.
Güüse - Last Sunday at 3:47 AMThey're*
Was the mistake i believe
Town Power and Citizen are both bad by bad mechanics due to the way roles are handed out, RNG. Everybody is randomly given a role, regardless of skill. And since skill is manipulated in multiplier with the use of Town Power and Citizen, they are bad mechanics. Now, I want to make it clear that skill should NOT be manipulated in any way, it should be left alone to be free and do it's job, determine who wins. If you are more skilled as a faction, you should always be the winning faction. With Town Power/CItizen, and it's manipulation of skill, you may find that a faction with many good townies and 1 bad townie who gets Town Power may still lose to an average mafia, or maybe 1 good townie with Town Power and many bad townies will win against a decent mafia. Just think of Jailor, he comes out as Jailor and TP stays on him, throughout the following 3-4 days he can execute the entire mafia as long as he scumreads well. Or just think of Jailor, he doesn't ever come out, executes another townie for not metagaming and doesn't even make a will. This is SWING, and although swing can be balanced, RNG swing is not, and the same problem is found in Citizen, but on the other side of the ability spectrum. If there was a way to control the way roles are determined to prevent this, then I would easily accept Town Power and Citizen as good systems, but as it stands Town Power and Citizen are swung by RNG, and for that they are broken.
Güüse - Last Sunday at 4:05 AMA common argument I've heard is that we should assume that everybody is of similar skill level, but this is not a good assumption. ELO does NOT mean skill, a good player could easily find themselves to busy to play after years of grinding to the top and would be stuck at the bottom of the ELO spectrum, thus allowing this diverse spectrum of skill to exist, with no fault of his/her own. Or what about the beginning of the reset, when everybody is brought back to bottom, they will be forced to play with players above their level or below their level, and with the usage of Town Power and Citizen, we cannot ensure proper skill distribution. We can't compensate for situations like these, meaning that we can't assume that everybody would be of an equal skill level.(edited)
(By "common" I mean Solola and Para's defense ^)
Solola - Last Sunday at 5:00 PMI said that skill level averages out
And it doesn’t matter if TPo or Citizen is killed and it’s swingy with how much power loss is lost by the Town as TPrs should prioritise protecting powerful roles anyway and scum should be awarded for killing high power roles. It makes no difference, except raising strategy for players
ProfessorArceus - Last Sunday at 5:13 PMSo you're saying that the skill distribution averages out? Please, do fuck off if you think that true
Firstly, swing from player skill when using a weak or powerful role is good as that’s literally what the game centres around
Secondly, Citizens are needed in games to enable scum to have a quick and easy claim, therefore prolonging the life of scum and also enabling the option of have two fields of claiming, PR and Vanilla, which develops strategy in claims with the balancing of both claim pools
Thirdly, Citizens promote the act of scumreading which whatever way you put it is the core idea for Mafia based games
Blah blah blah, no one will play with Citizens. I prefer balance over ethics and this is the way you make a good, balanced game
(edited)
Firstly, no it isn't. An idiot playing as Jailor and a good player playing as a Citizen isn't what the game is centered around.
Citizens improve claimspace, maybe, but again - make roles less confirmable and boom; you've fixed the fuck out of that problem.
It promotes scumreading, yes, but you scumread anyway no matter which role you are. If you're Vigilante, you scumread who to shoot.
If you're Escort, you scumread who to roleblock.
If you're Doctor, you scumread who NOT to heal.
TIs scumread who to confirm and investigate.
Solola - Last Sunday at 5:50 PMSkill distribution does average out over the many games that occur
Güüse - Last Sunday at 6:19 PMhow does it average out?
explain to me how the best player in the game getting Jailor would average out to the worst player getting Jailor(edited)
ProfessorArceus - Last Sunday at 6:25 PMOver the games that occur?
Assuming that there's an equal amount of newbies and veterans?
Oh and we don't balance out for 500 games
We balance out for 1 game
Then we ever the best game
Güüse - Last Sunday at 7:48 PMlet him answer xD
@Solola
Solola - Last Sunday at 9:00 PMOk, so let’s say that there are 500 games of ToS played. In a few games, someone playing as TPo may be like awesome and mega experienced, same for lower skilled. However, as you get further into the middle of skill, there more people that are classed as this, therefore the middle skill value, or average skill value has the highest frequency of players. Due to this, occurrences on the far ends of the spectrum are anomalous and therefore are discounted in further development. So, essentially balancing the game on these anomalies is stupid because there will be so few occurrences where this happens and making changes then for rare chances and not for the majority is stupid
ProfessorArceus - Last Sunday at 9:21 PMLet's see - no.
New players are coming in more often than middle players
And why does Ranked have so many complaints?
Because of average players?
No.
ProfessorArceus - Last Sunday at 9:21 PMThe majority is average, of course, but it's still swingy
Oh look
75% of the time a role does nothing
25% of the time it can kill the Town n1
That's swingy, no?
Or a role relies on visits and gets visits 50% of the time
It's still swingy
WW - swingy since it relies on visitors. Some assmath proves it gets a visitor 51% of the time
Still swingy
Our aim is to have no anomolies, no?
January 1, 2018
Solola - Last Monday at 7:03 AMIt doesn’t matter where the middle is, what I mean is you shouldn’t balance for anomalous occurrences
ProfessorArceus - Last Monday at 8:09 AMThey aren't anomalous
They're still swingy
Skill distribution among roles should not affect the game
They aren't anomalous when they aren't that much of a minority
Solola - Last Monday at 8:55 AMThey are quite a bit of the minority(edited)
It’s like implementing something that helps the Mafia when all of them are doused, its rare, it’s unnecessary and most of all it’s stupid
ProfessorArceus - Last Monday at 9:03 AMNo
No it isn't
Ranked has complaints
Why?
Because of shit players
It's not a one off complaint
You have many many complaints
And you're still neglecting the swing in deaths
Night one, Mafia kills TPow
This is a much bigger loss for Town
Night one, Mafia kills Cit
Who gives a flying fuck
Sure, town's weapon is majority
But TPow Vs Cit
Well one is objectively better
And you're neglecting balance
Having PURPOSEFULLY strong alingments and PURPOSEFULLY weak alignments neglects the idea of balance
So maybe they'd work in the odd game fine
But in the long run they just don't work.
I mean you support this objective weakness in citizens
So - why do we try and balance out the alignments? Or do we not?
Solola - Last Monday at 4:06 PMScum should be rewarded for killing TPo, mirroring the fact that Town should be punished for not protecting TPo and vice versa for Citizens
If you’re then gonna say that omg with N1 kills you have no way of knowing who you’re killing is a TPo or Citizen, N1 kills are swingy anyway as depending on how many scum and town die N1, it will have an immediate toll on the outcome
Güüse - Last Monday at 7:50 PMI see your argument. Since it averages out over many games, it is a good system. Now I'll try to break your argument
Let's say there was a role that determined who wins the game n1, it gives each faction a 33% chance to win.
People during the game feel completely screwed over because they had no ability to do anything about losing, but overall it is still fair as a balanced role
Does that make it a balanced role?
Solola - Last Monday at 9:58 PMNo because it can override wins which is so so broken
January 2, 2018
Güüse - Last Tuesday at 1:32 AMno it doesnt, it is just extremely powerful
you can still win, if it doesnt role
Solola - Last Tuesday at 9:09 AMNo, it decides which alignment wins...
Güüse - Last Tuesday at 6:39 PMyes, because it is extremely strong
But it averages out, so it's a good system
Solola - Last Tuesday at 6:43 PMNo because no role should decide who wins
Fixed name - Last Tuesday at 6:43 PMGood point
Once the role decides who wins, there's a 3% chance it can fail
Now it's okay, right?
Since it's not always going to decide who wins
It's just a really good chance that they will
Solola - Last Tuesday at 8:53 PMNo because that’s RNG and a role should never decide who wins
Fixed name - Last Tuesday at 9:54 PMIs it not RNG which decides who gets the best roles and who gets the worst on the same team?
Is a great Jailor carrying the Town not one role deciding who wins?
Güüse - Last Tuesday at 10:11 PMRolelist RNG is ok with you, why not this RNG?
Solola - Last Tuesday at 11:07 PM3% it can fail, that’s RNG
Also, it’s decided within the game, which is different to outside the game
Plus, your can’t role roles any other way except RNG
January 3, 2018
Güüse - Last Wednesday at 12:10 AMrolelist rng is rng
you cant, which is why it needs to be rolling equalling across the board
and that's my point
Solola - Last Wednesday at 11:01 AMRolelist RNG is good RNG as it’s not RNG in the game
It’s like a game of Tetris, the game randomly gives you different blocks for you to organise into a line, the different blocks you are given is like rolelist RNG. However, the the game then gave you a 40% chance of deleting a line or a 10% or only moving right, this limits the game of what you can do without your control and it essentially becomes less of a game and more about the numbers rolled in the RNG
It’s fine to play with the random pieces you get, however randomly setting the mechanics and abilities the pieces hold make it more programmed than played
I still don’t know wtf you are arguing for now, rolelist RNG does not negatively effect the game, especially when all the roles are the same power level (keep in mind that TPo and Citizen are only rolled when their sub alignment is stated, and that all roles in TPo have an equal power level, therefore nothing negatively impacts the game with rolelist RNG because you know in advance when you place TPo in the rolelist you’ll get a powerful Town role)
Fixed name - Last Wednesday at 2:58 PMFine, fine
There will be several roles
One for each faction
And then for every faction role, one that will fail and one that wont
So it's still rolelist RNG that decides whether one faction gets to win or doesn't
You can't say "Oh they know there's a TPo role thus it's okay"
Because 14 out of 15 players are not in control of that
15 out of 15 if they're playing a mode with a pre-determined rolelist
Solola - Last Wednesday at 6:17 PMIf everyone single role is at the same balance level (except TPo and Citizen), there should be no swing from the rolelist