Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Remove Town Power
21
36%
Remove Citizen
38
64%
 
Total votes : 59

Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:15 am

I've had many talks all over the TG Discord about this subject, and it continues to amaze me on how Town Power and
Citizen can continue to be supported so thoroughly. These roles may be balanced, but that doesn't mean they have good mechanics.

So what do I mean by this? Well here are the dictionary definitions:
Balance - Defined as everything being in correct proportion. This is to say that every aspect of a game of mafia is completely fair for all sides.
Mechanics - The mechanic, or ability, of a role, is the skin and bones of it. It is what the role does rather than how well it does it.

These are 2 very important things to remember, as they are the pinnacle of creating a good game of mafia. With a balanced game and a good mechanical game, there would be no more games where you get completely screwed over, but rather you lose because your opponent played well. That is why it is so important to look at the mechanics of a role, rather than just the balance.

Now don't get me wrong when I say Town Power and Citizen are absolutely terrible. They aren't all too bad, and they are completely balanced. You could build a rolelist around them with a fair winrate for all sides.

With these points out of the way, let's get into the main mechanics, starting with Town Power. The problem is the way it distributes skill. A faction needs to be a combination of all the player's skill put together. If you are the mafia, and all 3 players know what to claim, when to claim, who to visit, and how to make a great fake will, then you should win over a town who is built upon 1-2 good players who scumread the mafia with the rest of the town not voting at all. However, with Town Power, this isn't always the case. If one of these so-called "good players" gets Jailor, they kill out the mafia. But if one of these so-called "nubs" gets Jailor, you get a dead townie and a murdered Jailor. Just think about the amount of damage a Jailor does in each of your games personally, have you ever won a game by killing the evils as Jailor, or have you ever lost it all because the Jailor couldn't even write a will? This is what we call swing, where the amount of skill in the role completely changes the game. Now think, how many games have you won because there was an amazing Medium in the game who played out the mafia and talked to the right people? Outside of some double Medium Retributionist on Jailor games, you probably can't think of very many. This is an imbalance of skill distribution, and who, or should I say what gets to decide what is given out? Well, the answer to that question is the Rolelist RNG. Yes, RNG. The fate of the town rests on the shoulders of RNG to determine if 2000 elo gets Jailor or 1200 elo.

So what do we do with the current Town Power roles? Welp, let me give you my personal rundown of each one:
Jailor - Delete it. You combined Ghost with a strong Vigilante and gave it the ability to talk to its target. You did not make a new role, so it is not salvageable.
Mayor - Delete it. You took confirmability, the essence of all evil to town, and made it a role. The idea of town is to find evils, not find all town, so it is not salvageable.
Retributionist - Delete it. Unless you are willing to make lynches clean so that you don't get confirmability when resurrecting, then you will have a problem with confirmability. Same as Mayor, so it is not salvageable.
Psychic - Delete it! Confirmable, nuff said.

Now for Citizen. It has the exact same problem as Town Power, but it is found on the opposite end of the spectrum. A term I have often used is "3-Tiered Town", where there are 3 parts to Town: On top, we find Town Power, the most powerful of the Town alignments. In between, we find the average alignments, including Town Investigative, Town Killing, Town Support and Town Protective. At the bottom, we find CItizen, being the basis of the basic mechanics with no unique abilities. We need to make the Town 1-tiered, in order to ensure that RNG does not determine skill distribution, as talked about with Town Power. I urge you to consider that Citizen is just as bad as Town Power. Think of yourself knowing who the mafia is due to great scumreading, but not being able to do anything about it. You could investigate them if you were Town Investigative, you could attack them if you were Town Killing, or maybe you could roleblock, vote them up, etc. as Town Support, but you are stuck as merely a Citizen, wanting to lynch somebody with no proof. It isn't a fun role to play and has bad mechanics, please get it out of TG immediately.

Do you agree with me on everything here? Of course not, I'm insane! Well, at least tell me why with a *helpful* comment as to why you agree or disagree. Also, don't forget to vote in the petition! I hope with enough votes that we can make a real change! Thanks, I am open to debate!

Rebuttals:

A common argument I've heard is that we should assume that everybody is of similar skill level, but this is not a good assumption. ELO does NOT mean skill, a good player could easily find themselves to busy to play after years of grinding to the top and would be stuck at the bottom of the ELO spectrum, thus allowing this diverse spectrum of skill to exist, with no fault of his/her own. Or what about the beginning of the reset, when everybody is brought back to the bottom, they will be forced to play with players above their level or below their level, and with the usage of Town Power and Citizen, we cannot ensure proper skill distribution. We cannot compensate for situations like these, meaning that we cannot assume that everybody would be of an equal skill level within a game.

Now an argument that I have been given many times is that this is found outside of Town Power as well, and that argument is followed up by the question of "Why should we care about it when it is found in Town Power, but not in the rest of the alignments?" Well, the accusation here is completely true. A Medium does not do near as much as an Investigator for the town. But here we are getting back into the territory of balance. You see, Town Power is made to be overpowered when overpowered roles in other town alignments are the way they are due to a lack of balancing. The point of the Testing Grounds is to find exactly what is overpowered and how to fix it. And keep in mind, no matter how unbalanced a role is, as long as it has good mechanics it can be a good role. The effects of bad balancing can be reversed, the only way to fix a bad mechanic is to delete it, essentially deleting the role with it.
Last edited by Gooose26 on Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Stiersquid » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:49 am

May I ask how does psychic have good mechanics? It is 100% rng, unlike the other TownPower roles.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby polypies73 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:50 am

Stiersquid wrote:May I ask how does psychic have good mechanics? It is 100% rng, unlike the other TownPower roles.


You’re talking about the coven physic right? Pretty sure goose was talking about teh TG physic.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Stiersquid » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:06 am

polypies73 wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:May I ask how does psychic have good mechanics? It is 100% rng, unlike the other TownPower roles.


You’re talking about the coven physic right? Pretty sure goose was talking about teh TG physic.

I didn't know that they were different sorry. What is the TG psychic like btw?
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Hated role: retrebiutionist vampire hunter and spy

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countering framer
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Shilster » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:45 am

Stiersquid wrote:
polypies73 wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:May I ask how does psychic have good mechanics? It is 100% rng, unlike the other TownPower roles.


You’re talking about the coven physic right? Pretty sure goose was talking about teh TG physic.

I didn't know that they were different sorry. What is the TG psychic like btw?


Psychic

Alignment: Town Power
Abilities:
- Form a mental link between two players each day.

Attributes:
- Your two targets may anonymously speak to one another at night.
- You have one self-link.
- Roles with a night chat can still hear and speak in their night chat.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 6th

Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Stiersquid » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:51 am

Shilster wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:
polypies73 wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:May I ask how does psychic have good mechanics? It is 100% rng, unlike the other TownPower roles.


You’re talking about the coven physic right? Pretty sure goose was talking about teh TG physic.

I didn't know that they were different sorry. What is the TG psychic like btw?


Psychic

Alignment: Town Power
Abilities:
- Form a mental link between two players each day.

Attributes:
- Your two targets may anonymously speak to one another at night.
- You have one self-link.
- Roles with a night chat can still hear and speak in their night chat.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 6th

Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

That sounds super OP.
Favorite roles: jailor mayor vigilante medium godfather survivor jester and arsonist
Hated role: retrebiutionist vampire hunter and spy

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winning as town
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countering framer
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Shilster » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:52 am

Stiersquid wrote:
Shilster wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:
polypies73 wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:May I ask how does psychic have good mechanics? It is 100% rng, unlike the other TownPower roles.


You’re talking about the coven physic right? Pretty sure goose was talking about teh TG physic.

I didn't know that they were different sorry. What is the TG psychic like btw?


Psychic

Alignment: Town Power
Abilities:
- Form a mental link between two players each day.

Attributes:
- Your two targets may anonymously speak to one another at night.
- You have one self-link.
- Roles with a night chat can still hear and speak in their night chat.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 6th

Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

That sounds super OP.

"Town Power"
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Stiersquid » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:00 am

Shilster wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:
Shilster wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:
polypies73 wrote:
Stiersquid wrote:May I ask how does psychic have good mechanics? It is 100% rng, unlike the other TownPower roles.


You’re talking about the coven physic right? Pretty sure goose was talking about teh TG physic.

I didn't know that they were different sorry. What is the TG psychic like btw?


Psychic

Alignment: Town Power
Abilities:
- Form a mental link between two players each day.

Attributes:
- Your two targets may anonymously speak to one another at night.
- You have one self-link.
- Roles with a night chat can still hear and speak in their night chat.

Stats:
Attack: None
Defense: None
Priority: 6th

Goal:
Lynch every criminal and evildoer.

That sounds super OP.

"Town Power"

Still
Favorite roles: jailor mayor vigilante medium godfather survivor jester and arsonist
Hated role: retrebiutionist vampire hunter and spy

Great guides I made:
winning as town
lying as evils
countering framer
Playing jester
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:16 pm

Did you read my argument? Overpowered can be nerfed. As long as everything there is a based on good mechanics, there is still a good role that can be nerfed.

Psychic is overpowered but fixable, is what I mean
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Cirque » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:27 pm

Before I even want to decide, I think tester games would help. Having one without Citizens, the other without Town Power, and another one that's without both. That's probably a lot to ask but it's just a suggestion, but instead of us just deciding based truly on your argument, we can actually see if it works out. See what I mean?
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Mystoc » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:33 pm

the problem with town power is Jailor so much obv better than all other town power roles that there's gonna be noticeable win rate differences in games the have jailor and ones that dont

it will feel very bad to get to play as a town power role and not roll jailor i think that's the problem with it

the town power roles should be at equal terms of power so maybe nerf jailor down to the other roles level
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:45 pm

Cirque wrote:Before I even want to decide, I think tester games would help. Having one without Citizens, the other without Town Power, and another one that's without both. That's probably a lot to ask but it's just a suggestion, but instead of us just deciding based truly on your argument, we can actually see if it works out. See what I mean?

How do you test skill distribution?

And the argument stands by itself, if you agree with it then there's no reason to not support it.

Mystoc wrote:the problem with town power is Jailor so much obv better than all other town power roles that there's gonna be noticeable win rate differences in games the have jailor and ones that dont

it will feel very bad to get to play as a town power role and not roll jailor i think that's the problem with it

the town power roles should be at equal terms of power so maybe nerf jailor down to the other roles level

You also didn't read my argument. It doesn't matter how balanced each role is, what matters is that the entire alignment is a bad mechanic. You can always make Town (Power) balanced, but it will never be a good alignment.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Cirque » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:31 pm

Mystoc wrote:the problem with town power is Jailor so much obv better than all other town power roles that there's gonna be noticeable win rate differences in games the have jailor and ones that dont

it will feel very bad to get to play as a town power role and not roll jailor i think that's the problem with it

the town power roles should be at equal terms of power so maybe nerf jailor down to the other roles level

But if you nerf it down to the other role's level then there's no point in having Town Power since it isn't powerful anymore.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Cirque » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:37 pm

You talk about Citizen like nobody listens to them. Which isn't entirely true.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:40 am

Cirque wrote:You talk about Citizen like nobody listens to them. Which isn't entirely true.

You are right, but tell me what is more convincing?

Gooose26 The Sheriff
n1-Giles Corey-NS/GF
n2-Cirque-Mafia!

OR

Guys Cirque is acting really scummy, can we get a claim?

It’s just the fact that if you had an ability you could promote your agenda with a little more force, less asking for help from the big boys who can do it and more helping yourself
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BS4125 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:10 am

This thread has been moved from Role Ideas to the Testing Grounds sub-forum


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lemonader666 wrote:
Seththeking wrote:
BS4125 wrote:Please post relevant posts to the topic at hand and not digress. Also please explain your opinions otherwise your contribution is sub-zero.


Oooooooo Mister Power over here!

And would you look at that, I was on the forums longer then you.

But overall the role for this topic needs work, I mean it's so bad people would rather
get off topic lol.

solola is a mod you retard
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:56 pm

I agree completely. Town Power just swings the game. And with the roles which can't be nerfed? They just have bad mechanics, so they just shouldn't be ingame. There's a lot of swing with TPow and Citizen. While it'd take time to bring everything to the same level in each alignment, it would also make the game much more balanced and make it a skill related game, with no roles objectively better or worse than others.

Especially in 15p games, this is extremely swingy. Town will rather likely rely on TPow and not care for Citizens. Mafia killing Citizens is one less vote, but you'd much prefer the ability to claim out of invest results better, or the ability to kill with no risk of an unsuccessful kill AS WELL AS one less vote. If Mafia kill TPow, the Town might fall apart, sine there's no role to carry them with powerful abilities.

I personally dislike the Psychic because of its horrible confirmability, even if it's in TPow.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Cirque » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:22 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
Cirque wrote:You talk about Citizen like nobody listens to them. Which isn't entirely true.

You are right, but tell me what is more convincing?

Gooose26 The Sheriff
n1-Giles Corey-NS/GF
n2-Cirque-Mafia!

OR

Guys Cirque is acting really scummy, can we get a claim?

It’s just the fact that if you had an ability you could promote your agenda with a little more force, less asking for help from the big boys who can do it and more helping yourself

But I feel like just removing Citizens all together would take away a lot of scumreading, since there wouldn't really be a need anymore since everyone has night actions. And I see nothing wrong with asking people to check if this person is scum, it isn't really a big problem.
Regarding your TPow argument (I'm refering to the OP) I'm fine with letting Retributionist go. Not sure about everything else.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:27 am

Cirque wrote:
Gooose26 wrote:
Cirque wrote:You talk about Citizen like nobody listens to them. Which isn't entirely true.

You are right, but tell me what is more convincing?

Gooose26 The Sheriff
n1-Giles Corey-NS/GF
n2-Cirque-Mafia!

OR

Guys Cirque is acting really scummy, can we get a claim?

It’s just the fact that if you had an ability you could promote your agenda with a little more force, less asking for help from the big boys who can do it and more helping yourself

But I feel like just removing Citizens all together would take away a lot of scumreading, since there wouldn't really be a need anymore since everyone has night actions. And I see nothing wrong with asking people to check if this person is scum, it isn't really a big problem.
Regarding your TPow argument (I'm refering to the OP) I'm fine with letting Retributionist go. Not sure about everything else.


Night results are more reliable than scumreading. It wouldn't take away any scumreading, because that's what the Day is all about. You share results, sure, but ultimately you're finding who is and isn't scum. You have to scumread for most roles, too. Otherwise you're randoming who you shoot, investigate and protect. You do still scumread even if you don't realise it.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BlazinIce » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:53 pm

I'm not really comfortable with deleting three roles just because they distribute power unevenly. The roles have equal power to what they are dependent from other people. I don't really care about citizen, it's fine if it stays or if it goes.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:32 pm

BlazinIce wrote:I'm not really comfortable with deleting three roles just because they distribute power unevenly. The roles have equal power to what they are dependent from other people. I don't really care about citizen, it's fine if it stays or if it goes.


If we can find a way to balance them, this won't be the case. But wouldn't you agree that roles with bad mechanics just aren't good roles?
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:09 pm

BlazinIce wrote:I'm not really comfortable with deleting three roles just because they distribute power unevenly. The roles have equal power to what they are dependent from other people. I don't really care about citizen, it's fine if it stays or if it goes.


Gooose26 wrote:A faction needs to be a combination of all the player's skill put together. If you are the mafia, and all 3 players know what to claim, when to claim, who to visit, and how to make a great fake will, then you should win over a town who is built upon 1-2 good players who scumread the mafia with the rest of the town not voting at all. However, with Town (Power), this isn't always the case. If one of these so-called "good players" gets Jailor, they kill out the mafia. But if one of these so-called "nubs" gets Jailor, you get a dead townie and a murdered Jailor. Just think about the amount of damage a Jailor does in each of your games personally, have you ever won a game by killing the evils as Jailor, or have you ever lost it all because the Jailor couldn't even write a will? This is what we call swing, where the amount of skill in the role completely changes the game.

My response ^^^ Town (Power) is swingy, swing is a bad mechanic, bad mechanics cannot be fixed without a complete rework of the ability, bad mechanics need to be removed.

--------------

Cirque wrote:But I feel like just removing Citizens all together would take away a lot of scumreading, since there wouldn't really be a need anymore since everyone has night actions. And I see nothing wrong with asking people to check if this person is scum, it isn't really a big problem.
Regarding your TPow argument (I'm refering to the OP) I'm fine with letting Retributionist go. Not sure about everything else.


Scumreading is a guide to victory, not the solution. Scumreading outs the evils by their reactions and by giving you leads on who to visit, you don't just say "I think Gooose is evil" and everybody votes him up, even if everybody else is pretty much in agreement. However, you could say "I think you are evil Gooose, claim a role", then a claim could get me into trouble, if I claim off my investigative results then an investigator will snatch me up, or if I do and it ends up getting me caught later when my claimspace gets taken. Random visiting is for nubs, so scumreading will always put you on top of others, boost you up in ranked
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby SevenSeven » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:14 pm

can i vote no ?
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby ProfessorArceus » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:20 am

SevenSeven wrote:can i vote no ?

Tell us why, and you can.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby SevenSeven » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:09 am

ProfessorArceus wrote:
SevenSeven wrote:can i vote no ?

Tell us why, and you can.


cause no
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