Test Discussion Masterthread

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby cob709 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:26 pm

copy cat was being tested? YAY
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:10 am

alex1234321 wrote:For the Copycat role, I prefer to let it choose any non-unique role within the player's subalignment. I think that would more effectively counter the main issue of the role, which is that some copied abilities are much stronger than others. It isn't perfect since TPs will generally be weaker than other Town alignments for scum, but I think it's the best way to go.


So it mislynches a Medium and becomes an evil Transporter?

I'd prefer to see Copycat get some NE-worthy options besides "become a Transporter", but making that one option more accessible does help.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:27 am

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:For the Copycat role, I prefer to let it choose any non-unique role within the player's subalignment. I think that would more effectively counter the main issue of the role, which is that some copied abilities are much stronger than others. It isn't perfect since TPs will generally be weaker than other Town alignments for scum, but I think it's the best way to go.


So it mislynches a Medium and becomes an evil Transporter?

I'd prefer to see Copycat get some NE-worthy options besides "become a Transporter", but making that one option more accessible does help.


Yeah, but I think there'd be some situations where a Copycat would rather become an evil Escort than an Evil Transporter. Most TI roles aren't super useful to scum but NE Lookout is decent if you can coordinate with the Mafia. TP roles will always be weak unless you allow it to copy a Crusader. And maybe let it copy killing roles, but I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to give scum extra kills in non-Coven games.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:07 pm

alex1234321 wrote:Yeah, but I think there'd be some situations where a Copycat would rather become an evil Escort than an Evil Transporter. Most TI roles aren't super useful to scum but NE Lookout is decent if you can coordinate with the Mafia. TP roles will always be weak unless you allow it to copy a Crusader.


So now we have the Copycat only getting meaningfully rewarded if he mislynches a TS... that's not ideal.

I want to say "mislynch any townie and get whatever power you want", but that's giving up on the Copycat theme entirely.

alex1234321 wrote:And maybe let it copy killing roles, but I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to give scum extra kills in non-Coven games.


Witch gets extra kills. NE roles can be unreliable killers, just not reliable killers.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:29 pm

Maybe let it copy killing abilities, but only let it use each killing role's ability once per time it was copied (only gets one bullet for copying a Vigi, but can get another by copying another Vigi)? If we let it kill, I'd always set the kill credit to say Copycat instead of the copies killing ability.

I'd still like to try letting it copy every phase instead of just predicting the lynch. I think that would help it gain more utility.

Would it be too OP to test both of these changes at once?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:37 pm

We don't have a transcript for today's test or anything, but here's what I remember from the games:

Game 1: 9p, I rolled Sheriff. A modding error caused Death to spawn instead of Mortician, and even then Town was able to get rid of scum. That definitely says something about Mortician as a role.

Game 2: 10p, I was Godfather and claimed Bodyguard. Scum ended up gaining majority quickly and our Consig was able to find the Mortician before they even got close to doing anything interesting.

Game 3: 9p, I rolled Spy. I could've outed a Consort but they claimed they couldn't get their action through, and I believed that because I was dumb. I confused the players Jay and AJ and caused the Investigator to get lynched, but Town still pulled through.

Vig rolled in the first two games but did nothing either time, which I don't think is too different from what a normal Vig would've done. As Spy, I should've gotten the Consort lynched, but that would've been trivial with the old role. So it still can do stuff, but it's very hard to do that and probably weaker than Sheriff. In conjunction with a Lookout it could be fairly strong, but still weaker than Sheriff + Invest imo. Also I got zero investigative information from the role. Mortician couldn't get close to transforming in the second game, and it didn't even win the first one as Death. So even a Mortician that transforms D2-D3 wouldn't always win, which is probably a good thing. But normally after pushing a mislynch it would gain at least some suspicion. I'd like to test it more to see what its transformation would be like.

In other words, Spy is UP, Vig didn't get enough testing, and Mortician was both UP and not tested enough.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:56 pm

Of course the night that I can't play has record numbers

Hopefully we'll get even more next time
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Cookazoo2 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:25 pm

what if we just hosted a random testing grounds gamenight at some time just as a sort of "get to know a tester" thing

if it's small enough play random games like vigilantics or like a 7p town traitor but with no mafia roles
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:39 pm

I'll post the transcript and spreadsheet for the test that I modded later tonight.

In the first game Spy rolled but it didn't really do much. The second game has the reworked Vig but it died early on before it could shoot.

Mortician spawned in the second game and ended up winning. From my perspective Brilliand did a really good job subtly pushing the Veteran. Actually they somehow managed to simultaneously push two of their targets at once. The game was small but it still felt easy for Death to win after transforming. I think compared to Pest it's harder to transform but easier to win after transforming. Overall I think the role played well.

Edit: Transcript
Game 2 Spreadsheet
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:58 pm

Vigi died early both games

If we want to test vigi we have to make a 2v5 without gf and jailor

I couldnt see the end of the second game, the last thing I saw is me dying to mafia after exeing 5, who was evil (no room for a tp on that rolelist) and then getting disconected

Yeah pushing vet was by far the best thing to do, it put a lot of pressure, and outed 3 evils which put a lot of pressure

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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 12:51 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I couldnt see the end of the second game, the last thing I saw is me dying to mafia after exeing 5, who was evil (no room for a tp on that rolelist) and then getting disconected


It turned out the person you executed was Town, and it was the Doctor claim (me) who was evil. Also, you were killed by Mafia that night, and the jailed person was killed by Death that night, so neither your execute nor your disconnect actually wound up affecting the game.

End result was a Kingmaker situation where Jay had to choose which evil faction would win.

----

I thought that transforming to Death was rather easy - I just had to guess who would be lynched, and hope that it turned out to be a mislynch. Predicting the next lynch was easy, though the fact that one of the players being jailed blocked my entire action was scary (I was not expecting jailing to block the Mortician's guess, let alone block the Mortician's entire double-targeting action).
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 01, 2021 1:36 pm

Brilliand wrote:I thought that transforming to Death was rather easy - I just had to guess who would be lynched, and hope that it turned out to be a mislynch. Predicting the next lynch was easy, though the fact that one of the players being jailed blocked my entire action was scary (I was not expecting jailing to block the Mortician's guess, let alone block the Mortician's entire double-targeting action).


I didn't know what to do there, but since the action isn't specified as astral in the RC I made Jailor block it. I let the second guess go through. Also when I announced your first kill I said cause of death was Jailor+Death which technically wasn't correct. I forgot that the attack was powerful instead of unstoppable.

Now that I think about it Mortician's double targets should be astral. Also what happens if it's just Mortician and a Townie? Should it be a draw or default to Mortician win?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 3:56 pm

alex1234321 wrote:I didn't know what to do there, but since the action isn't specified as astral in the RC I made Jailor block it.


Jailing blocks Astral visits too. The proper term to bypass jailing is "indirect" (or "not a visit").

Thematically I see the Mortician's targeting as similar to the Witch's second target - it isn't an action, it's just a choice that might matter later.

alex1234321 wrote:Also what happens if it's just Mortician and a Townie? Should it be a draw or default to Mortician win?


i'd give the win to the Townie. It definitely shouldn't be a draw, though; better the Mortician wins than nobody.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat May 01, 2021 4:54 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I didn't know what to do there, but since the action isn't specified as astral in the RC I made Jailor block it.


Jailing blocks Astral visits too. The proper term to bypass jailing is "indirect" (or "not a visit").

Thematically I see the Mortician's targeting as similar to the Witch's second target - it isn't an action, it's just a choice that might matter later.

alex1234321 wrote:Also what happens if it's just Mortician and a Townie? Should it be a draw or default to Mortician win?


i'd give the win to the Townie. It definitely shouldn't be a draw, though; better the Mortician wins than nobody.


Yeah jailing shouldnt affect mortician imo, just like GA

Also if only 1 townie and mortician left then I would give the win to the townie, like when witch is left with 1 townie?
Brilliand wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I couldnt see the end of the second game, the last thing I saw is me dying to mafia after exeing 5, who was evil (no room for a tp on that rolelist) and then getting disconected


It turned out the person you executed was Town, and it was the Doctor claim (me) who was evil. Also, you were killed by Mafia that night, and the jailed person was killed by Death that night, so neither your execute nor your disconnect actually wound up affecting the game.

End result was a Kingmaker situation where Jay had to choose which evil faction would win.


How is that posible?

The rolelist was
Jailor (me)
TI
RTest (vigi)
RT (vet)
RM
RM
Mortician
A tp was imposible


Anyway im glad it didnt cause problems
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 10:31 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:How is that posible?

The rolelist was
Jailor (me)
TI
RTest (vigi)
RT (vet)
RM
RM
Mortician
A tp was imposible


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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby MarsGodofWar » Tue May 04, 2021 5:33 am

What was the reworked Vigi? Will any of these roles reworks and ideas actually get added to the game or is the testing just completely pointless?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue May 04, 2021 6:58 am

MarsGodofWar wrote:What was the reworked Vigi? Will any of these roles reworks and ideas actually get added to the game or is the testing just completely pointless?


Reworked vigi was 2 bullets and jailor guilt
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Tue May 04, 2021 8:32 am

MarsGodofWar wrote:What was the reworked Vigi? Will any of these roles reworks and ideas actually get added to the game or is the testing just completely pointless?


It's unlikely that any of the changes get implemented considering that the devs are working on TiS now, but it's definitely possible. In the (distant) past, the TG contributed to the addition of Tracker and Hypnotist along with several smaller balance changes.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Fri May 14, 2021 7:22 pm

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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Fri May 28, 2021 8:41 pm

Game 2 Spreadsheet

I had to leave on short notice and forgot to copy the transcript for my game. I believe Widget has the transcript for the first game but no spreadsheet.

Here are my thoughts on the roles we tested:

Charmer- Too random, similar to Doctor in terms of power but very difficult to predict who will receive the charm after more than a night.
Technician- I was a bit skeptical initially, but I was pleasantly surprised with how it did in testing. I think sabotage should be less role-specific and more of a general effect like the other abilities though. Maybe it could force players to target themselves.
Kleptomaniac- Often wasn't able to do anything due to restrictions on who it can steal from. I don't like the fact that it can easily find all Mafia after finding one, but I want to see how this works in a test before jumping to definitive conclusions.

Also this was our largest test since the revival with 11 players plus the mod in game 1.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:31 pm

Today's transcript

I wasn't able to come to the test, but Widget hosted it and sent me the transcript. There were four games.

What did everyone think of the test? Which roles played well and seemed balanced? How did they affect the game?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby superdog551 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:35 pm

alex1234321 wrote:Today's transcript

I wasn't able to come to the test, but Widget hosted it and sent me the transcript. There were four games.

What did everyone think of the test? Which roles played well and seemed balanced? How did they affect the game?


Charmer hasn't been seen doing much yet, people with the role kept dying right away and a few of us talked about how it would be more effective in a full size game. Klepto is still fun but we came to a consensus that it needs a scum vest like witch. I was klepto and mafia targeted me twice with me being healed the first time and the second time I died, but if I had a vest I think that they could've realized I was the NE and teamed with me. Technician had a clutch play with a smokebomb where it blocked a LO and others from a target, though we also discussed that it is mechanic heavy and definitely can be streamlined. Agent seemed pretty balanced and if I remember correctly one easily fake-claimed LO and another actual LO was less trustworthy due to the possibility of Agent.
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:40 am

superdog551 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:Today's transcript

I wasn't able to come to the test, but Widget hosted it and sent me the transcript. There were four games.

What did everyone think of the test? Which roles played well and seemed balanced? How did they affect the game?


Charmer hasn't been seen doing much yet, people with the role kept dying right away and a few of us talked about how it would be more effective in a full size game. Klepto is still fun but we came to a consensus that it needs a scum vest like witch. I was klepto and mafia targeted me twice with me being healed the first time and the second time I died, but if I had a vest I think that they could've realized I was the NE and teamed with me. Technician had a clutch play with a smokebomb where it blocked a LO and others from a target, though we also discussed that it is mechanic heavy and definitely can be streamlined. Agent seemed pretty balanced and if I remember correctly one easily fake-claimed LO and another actual LO was less trustworthy due to the possibility of Agent.


If Klepto has an autovest, should it still be able to steal defense from a player? Like if it targets a role with defense and it's attacked that night should it keep the autovest? Or would that be too complicated and unnecessary?
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Re: Test Discussion Masterthread

Postby Brilliand » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:53 pm

alex1234321 wrote:If Klepto has an autovest, should it still be able to steal defense from a player? Like if it targets a role with defense and it's attacked that night should it keep the autovest? Or would that be too complicated and unnecessary?


I think it's unnecessarily complicated, but I also think that Klepto is underpowered, so I wouldn't mind Klepto keeping that ability as a bonus. (It probably isn't the best way to buff the role, though.)
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