TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:33 pm

With the first test coming soon, we need to come up with a rolelist. I don't anticipate that we will be able to get a full 15 players, but we need at least 7 to have a viable test. Here is a potential rolelist that I came up with. If there are 10 players, for example, the top 10 slots would be used. Bolded slots are guaranteed in a 7 player game.

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Random Mafia

Town Support
Mafioso
Town Killing
Witch
Random Town
Executioner
Town Investigative
Random Mafia

What do you guys think about this rolelist? I'm not sure about having a guaranteed Jailor or even allowing Jailor to spawn at all in smaller games, but it is an important part of the ToS Ranked and also combats D2 MyLo. In general, I think we should keep the game as close to ToS Ranked as possible since these roles and concepts would potentially be implemented into Ranked and not some magically balanced version of the game. To that end, I think we should only use roles in the base game in addition to those being tested, use standard phase lengths, and not use TMK. Also, any Neutral roles being tested would replace the last Mafia slot regardless of alignment if the game is not big enough to have Neutral roles and would otherwise replace the last Neutral slot. Town roles being tested would replace one slot for whichever alignment they are part of but would also be able to spawn in other slots for that same alignment or Random Town slots unless they are unique. If there are no slots for the test role's sub-alignment, it will replace a Random Town slot. Mafia roles being tested would replace the last Random Mafia slot in the game but could still spawn naturally in any other Random Mafia unless they are unique. Roles and mechanics that do not neatly fit into this classification will be dealt with on a case by case basis.

To make sure that nobody actively plays against a certain role or concept being tested, I do not think the host should disclose the specific role being tested. Instead, each role being tested should have a random and equal chance of spawning, and there should be a small chance that no test roles spawn. For the sake of simplicity, I think each role should have a 50% chance of spawning, and if there are not enough slots to accommodate the test roles, test roles will randomly be eliminated until there are enough open slots. This can include roles that aren't in the slot that is full.

What is everyone's opinion on the rolelist and the mechanics that I am proposing? Should the goal of the setup be to mirror ToS Ranked or to be as balanced as possible? Should the players know which roles are being tested in a given game?
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Brilliand » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:51 pm

I'm pretty happy with the rolelist that you've come up with. My only misgiving is that it isn't guaranteed to be appropriate for future tests, depending on which roles are being tested. Oh, also I'm a little bit worried that the second RM is so unlikely to exist considering that there are 3 RM roles under test this time.

When testing reworks of existing roles, how will we know which ruleset the role is using if we discover it exists in that game? Will it simply be guaranteed that the role uses the proposed modified rules if it spawns at all?
Last edited by Brilliand on Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 pm

The role list there is the exact same as the Ranked role list so it's fine ig

Here's one that I'd like to suggest:
Jailor
Town (Investigative)
Town (Protective)
Town (Support)
Town (Killing)
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia (Killing)
Mafia (Support)
Mafia (Deception)
Random Neutral
Random Neutral

Additional rules:
- Don't allow Vampire to spawn in Random Neutral slots
- Don't allow two neutral roles of the same subalignment to spawn

If we have a hard time filling games to 15 players in the TG Discord, do you think we might have better luck trying to run FM-style games? We'd probably have better luck getting people to join by advertising it on the forums, but it would come at the expense of gameplay being less similar to that of ToS.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby CapWarrior2 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:57 am

Full Rolelist (15 Players)
- Mayor
- Kamikaze
- Spy
- Town(Investigative)
- Town(Protective)
- Town(Support)
- Random(Town)
- Random(Town)
- Random(Town)
- Godfather
- Mafioso
- Ambusher
- Random(Mafia)
- Random(Mafia)
- Executioner

Additional Features:
- Jailor is not allowed to spawn.

- Kamikaze
- Town(Investigative)
- Town(Protective)
- Town(Support)
- Random(Town)
- Godfather
- Mafioso

- Executioner
- Random(Town)
- Ambusher
- Random(Town)
- Spy
- Random(Mafia)
- Mayor
- Random(Mafia)

(My suggestion of a rolelist)
Last edited by CapWarrior2 on Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:47 am

Brilliand wrote:I'm pretty happy with the rolelist that you've come up with. My only misgiving is that it isn't guaranteed to be appropriate for future tests, depending on which roles are being tested. Oh, also I'm a little bit worried that the second RM is so unlikely to exist considering that there are 3 RM roles under test this time.

When testing reworks of existing roles, how will we know which ruleset the role is using if we discover it exists in that game? Will it simply be guaranteed that the role uses the proposed modified rules if it spawns at all?

This test is going to be kind of weird because three out of the four roles are RM. Maybe for this month we can make a second RM slot replace Godfather for smaller games and use TMK. The only other issue I see is with Neutral roles, but in most cases those roles would work decently well in place of an RM slot. If the games are big enough to have one or both of the Neutral slots, any Neutral roles being tested can replace those roles.

For existing roles, it will be guaranteed that the role will use the test mechanic if it spawns. In the real game, a given role is always going to have the same mechanics, so it would be weird if a test role can have two possible mechanics.

@Ezra That rolelist looks pretty good but the RN slots seem swingy. In games with a Neutral role being tested it might be useful, but functionally it wouldn't be that different from replacing one of the NE slots with the test role. I doubt we'll be getting 15 players, but usually with smaller games you can tell whether a role is balanced and also you can get more games in less time. Maybe we can move toward FM-style games later on, but the gameplay would be less like ToS and FM is a very big time commitment. Also many of the later TG episodes were canned due to inactivity (along with other reasons like toxicity).

@Cap Although I really like having my roles in the game, we would need to replace the guaranteed Kamikaze slot with some other role in later months. It wouldn't be too bad to just replace it with a TK though. Also what happened to the 2 RM slots in the ordered list?
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby CapWarrior2 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:09 pm

alex1234321 wrote:@Cap Although I really like having my roles in the game, we would need to replace the guaranteed Kamikaze slot with some other role in later months. It wouldn't be too bad to just replace it with a TK though. Also what happened to the 2 RM slots in the ordered list?


Yes well you see, Im proposing a Rolelist for these tests only, and im gonna say, I honestly have no clue how I managed to miss 2 RM slots.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:56 pm

CapWarrior2 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:@Cap Although I really like having my roles in the game, we would need to replace the guaranteed Kamikaze slot with some other role in later months. It wouldn't be too bad to just replace it with a TK though. Also what happened to the 2 RM slots in the ordered list?


Yes well you see, Im proposing a Rolelist for these tests only, and im gonna say, I honestly have no clue how I managed to miss 2 RM slots.


Even then, we probably don't want any of the test roles to be guaranteed because we don't want people to actively play against a certain role. But maybe we can use your list with a TK instead of a guaranteed Kamikaze.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Brilliand » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:33 pm

I don't particularly want to use a rolelist with an "Additional Rules" clause. Seems to me that any rolelist tweak that isn't currently possible to set up in the ingame "Custom" mode should have to be voted in as part of the test, unless they're explicitly being done in order to make room for one of the roles under test.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:36 pm

Brilliand wrote:I don't particularly want to use a rolelist with an "Additional Rules" clause. Seems to me that any rolelist tweak that isn't currently possible to set up in the ingame "Custom" mode should have to be voted in as part of the test, unless they're explicitly being done in order to make room for one of the roles under test.


What do you think about having a second RM replace Godfather and using TMK for small tests this month? Just since we have 3 RM roles.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Brilliand » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:41 pm

alex1234321 wrote:What do you think about having a second RM replace Godfather and using TMK for small tests this month? Just since we have 3 RM roles.


If it's TMK and the role under test performs the kill every night, that would be rather a waste of a test...

I would prefer to have the second RM replace the Mafioso, and accept that if we don't have enough players for a 3-man Mafia, there will only be one RM.

Granted, that makes Escorts very scary; I'm not entirely opposed to resorting to TMK in that situation.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:48 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:What do you think about having a second RM replace Godfather and using TMK for small tests this month? Just since we have 3 RM roles.


If it's TMK and the role under test performs the kill every night, that would be rather a waste of a test...

I would prefer to have the second RM replace the Mafioso, and accept that if we don't have enough players for a 3-man Mafia, there will only be one RM.

Granted, that makes Escorts very scary; I'm not entirely opposed to resorting to TMK in that situation.


If the test role performs the TMK every night wouldn't that tell us that the role is kinda useless? I don't think TMK should be a permanent thing but for this month we probably want two RMs.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Brilliand » Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:00 pm

alex1234321 wrote:If the test role performs the TMK every night wouldn't that tell us that the role is kinda useless? I don't think TMK should be a permanent thing but for this month we probably want two RMs.


That's true, and the Escort is a pretty serious bogeyman when the Mafia has only one killing role (and no witch ally).

Okay, I'll support TMK for small game sizes. The question is, how small? Just for games with a 2-man Mafia? Or for all games where we can't complete the 4-man Mafia set (pushing Executioner down, and possibly also Witch, to make a 4-man Mafia more likely)?
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:58 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:If the test role performs the TMK every night wouldn't that tell us that the role is kinda useless? I don't think TMK should be a permanent thing but for this month we probably want two RMs.


That's true, and the Escort is a pretty serious bogeyman when the Mafia has only one killing role (and no witch ally).

Okay, I'll support TMK for small game sizes. The question is, how small? Just for games with a 2-man Mafia? Or for all games where we can't complete the 4-man Mafia set (pushing Executioner down, and possibly also Witch, to make a 4-man Mafia more likely)?


That's an interesting question. With 7-8 players Escort is unlikely to roll and the games are quick so it's not too much of an issue, but with 3 Mafia it can be. For this month we should certainly try to get two RM slots if possible. The only options would be to have one MK or to have TMK. Either way, it's not a great situation, so the second RM should definitely be moved up for this month. I'd move it all the way up above both Neutrals since no Neutrals are even being tested, but I'm not sure. Then, for games with 9 or 10 players we would have to decide whether to have TMK or a solo killer. I would prefer a TMK in that case because it wouldn't make sense for Escort to have such a large power swing depending on the number of players, and 10 players isn't that many. What do you think?
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Brilliand » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:48 pm

alex1234321 wrote:That's an interesting question. With 7-8 players Escort is unlikely to roll and the games are quick so it's not too much of an issue, but with 3 Mafia it can be. For this month we should certainly try to get two RM slots if possible. The only options would be to have one MK or to have TMK. Either way, it's not a great situation, so the second RM should definitely be moved up for this month. I'd move it all the way up above both Neutrals since no Neutrals are even being tested, but I'm not sure. Then, for games with 9 or 10 players we would have to decide whether to have TMK or a solo killer. I would prefer a TMK in that case because it wouldn't make sense for Escort to have such a large power swing depending on the number of players, and 10 players isn't that many. What do you think?


Executioner strikes me as pretty much irrelevant for these tests, but I would like to see Witch interact with the test roles if possible.

...Possibly go with TMK 2 Mafia and a Witch when the gamesize is right for 3 evils, but go with 4 Mafia if we have 4 evils? That sidesteps the "what do we do at 3 Mafia" question.

We also have the option to rotate through a few rolelists over the course of the test, so as to see all these different situations without having to cram them all into one list.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:10 pm

Hi!

Wanted to jump in on this thread but don't have the time to read through what's been suggested so far.

What resources do I need to read through as far as tested roles and what we're doing for future TG tests?
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Brilliand » Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:38 am

Cookazoo2 wrote:What resources do I need to read through as far as tested roles and what we're doing for future TG tests?


No roles have been tested yet. The following roles are scheduled to be tested approximately 16 hours from now:

alex1234321 wrote:Framer Buff by CapWarrior2
Ambusher Rework by Paradox12
Consigliere Buff by OreCreeper
Kamikaze by alex1234321


(From a post in TG Role/Concept Poll)

The testing will be performed in "alex-test-channel" in the Role Ideas & TG Discord.

I'd say the thread I got the test role links from is the most useful thread to watch (or at least read the OP of) if you want to be involved in the TG process for the future.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:25 am

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:That's an interesting question. With 7-8 players Escort is unlikely to roll and the games are quick so it's not too much of an issue, but with 3 Mafia it can be. For this month we should certainly try to get two RM slots if possible. The only options would be to have one MK or to have TMK. Either way, it's not a great situation, so the second RM should definitely be moved up for this month. I'd move it all the way up above both Neutrals since no Neutrals are even being tested, but I'm not sure. Then, for games with 9 or 10 players we would have to decide whether to have TMK or a solo killer. I would prefer a TMK in that case because it wouldn't make sense for Escort to have such a large power swing depending on the number of players, and 10 players isn't that many. What do you think?


Executioner strikes me as pretty much irrelevant for these tests, but I would like to see Witch interact with the test roles if possible.

...Possibly go with TMK 2 Mafia and a Witch when the gamesize is right for 3 evils, but go with 4 Mafia if we have 4 evils? That sidesteps the "what do we do at 3 Mafia" question.

We also have the option to rotate through a few rolelists over the course of the test, so as to see all these different situations without having to cram them all into one list.


Executioner is necessary because otherwise people will trust TI accusations much more than they would in a regular ToS game. But it's probably not as useful as Witch or any of the other evil roles. I like that idea of making the Witch an the third evil role but having four Mafia if we get enough for four evils. So in that case, the evil roles would occur in the order of 2 Mafia (guaranteed) > 2 Mafia + Witch > 4 Mafia > 4 Mafia + Exe.

We can definitely rotate rolelists. Maybe we can have one base list and depending on how the interactions in that rolelist go we can change it up in later games/tests.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:13 pm

This month there are four roles, three of which are neutral? How should we go about testing? With 9 players a 6v2v1 could work and we probably wouldn't need TMK even though Escort/Jailor could cause problems. Or we could use TMK if that's better. The real problem is if we have fewer than 9 people. In that case, we can either not test Neutral roles (and only test Stalker or occasionally the previous ones) or we can do a 6v1v1. In that case, I think Mafia would need to be able to both kill and use their normal ability at the same time and possibly even have a double vote. What do you guys think?
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:19 pm

Do a NE and a NK instead of two RMs

Or a NE and a NK/NC so the Conqueror can spawn

And just use the role list with two RMs when we wanna test the Stalker

I'd make sure that Exe, Jest, Pirate, and Vamp can't spawn though
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby OreCreeper » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:03 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:Do a NE and a NK instead of two RMs

Or a NE and a NK/NC so the Conqueror can spawn

And just use the role list with two RMs when we wanna test the Stalker

I'd make sure that Exe, Jest, Pirate, and Vamp can't spawn though

I don't think there should be an NK considering none of the new roles are NKs. The point is to test the new roles.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby Brilliand » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:46 pm

Specifically, we have an NC that is almost an NK, two NEs that could easily replace the Witch, and one Random Mafia.

Conqueror, unlike NKs, can't exist as the only evil faction, so it kinda needs to roll in the NE slot even though it's no ally of the Mafia.

6v2v1 sounds like the best plan to me. I think we could even reduce that to 5v2v1 with no problems, since the neutral being "uninformed" will spice things up a bit. 7 players would probably get too swingy, but I'd still be willing to experiment with a 5v1v1 rolelist with a chance of Stalker spawning in the Neutral slot.
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Re: TG Rolelist/Mechanics Discussion

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:40 am

Brilliand wrote:Specifically, we have an NC that is almost an NK, two NEs that could easily replace the Witch, and one Random Mafia.

Conqueror, unlike NKs, can't exist as the only evil faction, so it kinda needs to roll in the NE slot even though it's no ally of the Mafia.

6v2v1 sounds like the best plan to me. I think we could even reduce that to 5v2v1 with no problems, since the neutral being "uninformed" will spice things up a bit. 7 players would probably get too swingy, but I'd still be willing to experiment with a 5v1v1 rolelist with a chance of Stalker spawning in the Neutral slot.


5v2v1 could work if the Neutral is Conqueror or an NK, but with an NE that would just be D2 LyLo which isn't great but I guess we can do it. 5v1v1 isn't that great either since Mafia is supposed to be an informed minority and you can't really have that with one player. We can still try to do it but we should shoot for 9 people to test the NEs and if we only get 7 we can focus on Stalker unless we have multiple games.
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