TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Accepting

Postby Cookazoo2 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:19 am

I third Vampire Rework.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby MarsGodofWar » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:16 am

alex1234321 wrote:Edit: Here are my thoughts on Mars's roles

Marshall- Self-confirming Town, I think confirmability is a broken mechanic since Town is supposed to be the uninformed minority. The group lynch is an interesting concept though.
Judge- Cool idea, but in practice it would mostly be used in the endgame when scum are one away from majority. With the Judge's votes they could cause a mislynch and gain majority with a kill that night. That doesn't take much skill
Transporter Rework- Arguably better than the current mechanic, but this is a minor action that rarely occurs and even more rarely has a significant effect on the game. I'm not sure how we would test it and get meaningful results in 7-10 player games.


The point of Marshall is that its a substitute for the Mayor and they cannot bother occur in the same game. Both Mayor and Marshall are on par with each other in terms of Power each having their own advantages. Town is meant to be an uninformed majority, but they are meant to become an informed majority over time to win the game. There's always roles that confirm themselves. I highly dislike the tp/lo meta with Jailor, Lookouts, Spies & TP often all getting confirmed by day 2, but there are ways to counter this meta. But I don't think having 1 role that can easily confirm themselves is game breaking. Even on classic style Mafia such as on Epicmafia, there was always a role which was confirmed by day 2. Gunsmith is an example in a classic 1GS/1Cop/3Cit/1Maf/1Hooker style setup

Judge does need a few adjustments, but I wouldn't say the role takes no skill. Judge has to stay alive for awhike which is very hard to do as a Netural role and he has to make sure to time his Court correctly and to be smart about who he mislynches. If the Judge is able to stay alive for long enough to give an evils a needed edge late game then I wouldn't say that takes no skill

Transporter can transport an alerted Veteran who's meant to instantly kill anyone who visits him. So the Veteran just goes on a Taxi Drive to another players house (when he's meant to be a non visiting role) and then gets out of his drivers car and murders him and anyone visiting the players house where he's been driven to. That's murder, making Veteran evil and besides from the Transporter anyone else he shoots wasn't even trespassing on his property. This logic makes no sense what so ever and really bugs me. I disagree with it being a minor action as well; as sometimes the game becomes very chaotic if a Transporter transports a tp/lo claim with a Veteran. All of a sudden all of the spies and tp die and its game over for town day 2.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:01 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:The point of Marshall is that its a substitute for the Mayor and they cannot bother occur in the same game. Both Mayor and Marshall are on par with each other in terms of Power each having their own advantages. Town is meant to be an uninformed majority, but they are meant to become an informed majority over time to win the game. There's always roles that confirm themselves. I highly dislike the tp/lo meta with Jailor, Lookouts, Spies & TP often all getting confirmed by day 2, but there are ways to counter this meta. But I don't think having 1 role that can easily confirm themselves is game breaking. Even on classic style Mafia such as on Epicmafia, there was always a role which was confirmed by day 2. Gunsmith is an example in a classic 1GS/1Cop/3Cit/1Maf/1Hooker style setup

Town should become informed by making skilled plays and deducing who is on which side, not by having some player click a button. You don't fix a meta of people protecting a confirmed Town member by making more confirmed Town members. The better way to get rid of TP/LO meta would be to get rid of the confirming Townies. That Epicmafia setup you included in your post has all guaranteed roles and is balanced around interactions between specific roles. In ToS, there is no guarantee of which roles spawn, so the game can't really be balanced around players confirming themselves and specific counters to those players. It doesn't help that ToS doesn't have cits, so it doesn't have the same hierarchy of other Mafia games.

MarsGodofWar wrote:Judge does need a few adjustments, but I wouldn't say the role takes no skill. Judge has to stay alive for awhike which is very hard to do as a Netural role and he has to make sure to time his Court correctly and to be smart about who he mislynches. If the Judge is able to stay alive for long enough to give an evils a needed edge late game then I wouldn't say that takes no skill

Judge doesn't take very much skill beyond the regular "don't get lynched early on" that all evil roles have to do. If the game gets to LyLo, the Judge is going to call a court and get a Town member lynched. Unless there's a Jailor or some other special role, scum can lynch any Townie and win the game. There's some skill if there's a Jailor or TK left, but usually by the end of the game everyone has at least claimed their alignment. If you don't know who the TK is, getting any Townie lynched would almost always lead to Town and scum having parity at the start of the next day.

MarsGodofWar wrote:Transporter can transport an alerted Veteran who's meant to instantly kill anyone who visits him. So the Veteran just goes on a Taxi Drive to another players house (when he's meant to be a non visiting role) and then gets out of his drivers car and murders him and anyone visiting the players house where he's been driven to. That's murder, making Veteran evil and besides from the Transporter anyone else he shoots wasn't even trespassing on his property. This logic makes no sense what so ever and really bugs me. I disagree with it being a minor action as well; as sometimes the game becomes very chaotic if a Transporter transports a tp/lo claim with a Veteran. All of a sudden all of the spies and tp die and its game over for town day 2.

I get that the lore doesn't work, but most of the time a competent Veteran isn't going to silently alert D1. The Town deserves to be punished because the Veteran was stupid. If it's later in the game, the Town should be punished because the Transporter was dumb enough to visit the alerting Veteran. That might sound harsh, but the Transporter's objective is to pick someone who will NOT be killed. By choosing the person who is actively trying to be attacked, the Transporter made literally the worst possible decision for who to target and should be punished accordingly.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Accepting

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:26 pm

I'm gonna throw in my Xenu, which is a nutty role but I want to see how it plays.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Accepting

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:36 pm

Brilliand wrote:I'm gonna throw in my Xenu, which is a nutty role but I want to see how it plays.


Hex color?

Also the submission phase is technically over but I'm not able to end it rn. I'll accept the role but it won't be accepted unless someone quickly seconds it.

Edit: The submission phase has ended! The following roles were nominated but not seconded, so they will not appear in the poll this cycle. They may be nominated again during the next submission phase.

Marshall by MarsGodofWar
Illusionist by syjfwbaobfwl
Judge by MarsGodofWar
Xenu by Brilliand
Lookout Nerf by cob709
Transporter Rework by MarsGodofWar

The following roles did receive a second nomination. You may vote for your favorite ones during the voting phase.

Bishop by cob709
Blacksmith by alex1234321
Blacksmith by MarsGodofWar
Charmer by superdog551
Historian by alex1234321
Agent by cob709
Kidnapper by MarsGodofWar
Sniper by MarsGodofWar
Technician by Cavespider17
Auditor by MarsGodofWar
Kleptomaniac by Ezradekezra
Omen by CapWarrior2
Vampire Rework by alex1234321
Veteran/Witch Rework by MarsGodofWar
Neutral Subalignment Rearrangement by Ezradekezra (option B)

Congratulations to everyone whose roles made it to the voting phase. You may now vote for as many or as few roles as you would like. You have until to get your votes in!
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby MarsGodofWar » Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:06 pm

/Vote Kidnapper
/Vote Sniper
/Vote Agent
/Vote Technician

/Vote Auditor
/Vote Charmer
/Vote Blacksmith Mars
/Vote Veteran/Witch Rework
Last edited by MarsGodofWar on Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby superdog551 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:08 pm

A lot of these roles seem really cool

/Vote Bishop
/Vote Blacksmith by Alex
/Vote Charmer (can I vote for my own?)
/Vote Historian
/Vote Agent x1000
/Vote Sniper
/Vote Kleptomaniac
/Vote Vampire Rework
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Accepting

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 1:35 am

/vote Charmer by superdog551
/vote Historian by alex1234321
/vote Agent by cob709
/vote Kleptomaniac by Ezradekezra

I want to support the Sniper, since I've had the same idea myself in the past, but in the small test games it would probably just kill N1 every time.

superdog551 wrote:(can I vote for my own?)


Yeah, that's fine. In fact, the way an approval vote works, it would cause problems if you couldn't.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat May 01, 2021 6:44 am

/vote Kleptomaniac
/vote Neutral Subalignment rework
/vote Agent
/vote Technician (although I'd strongly recommend a change in Investigator results)
/vote Kidnapper (rename to Underboss pls)
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 01, 2021 9:30 am

My thoughts on each role:

Bishop by cob709 Could lead to annoying metas, but it's a unique TP role and could be modified with testing.
Blacksmith by alex1234321 Manages to be similar to Doctor while being completely different in terms of playstyle and impact.
Blacksmith by MarsGodofWar Similar to my role but confirmable and swingy.
Charmer by superdog551 Could be unpredictable but also a unique and easily balanceable role.
Historian by alex1234321 Probably OP right now but there are a number of ways to nerf it if testing confirms that.
Agent by cob709 This needs to be added.
Kidnapper by MarsGodofWar Doesn't really help Mafia much except to give an extra kill. Mafia should rely on deception rather than brute force, and a direct kill like this doesn't take much skill to execute in LyLo.
Sniper by MarsGodofWar Doesn't help Mafia at all except to give an extra kill. Could work as Coven.
Technician by Cavespider17 Seems like a fun role, but it's overly complicated and would be hard to balance.
Auditor by MarsGodofWar Might be balanced in theory, but people don't want to completely lose their abilities.
Kleptomaniac by Ezradekezra I don't like Witchsigliere, and the point of this role is that it sees the role of the person whose ability it steals.
Omen by CapWarrior2 Lynch immunity isn't great, and other than that the role doesn't have much utility for its teammates. Not really sure how it can be buffed.
Vampire Rework by alex1234321 The killing mechanism is limited, but it can be very strong if played well. A good player can definitely take control of the Town while being able to get kills off.
Veteran/Witch Rework by MarsGodofWar I might post my own Vet rework soon, but both changes seem reasonable and the Veteran one would open up claimspace for scum.
Neutral Subalignment Rearrangement by Ezradekezra (option B) This should definitely be implemented, but I'm not sure how it would benefit from testing, especially in smaller games.

Here are my votes:
/vote Bishop
/vote Blacksmith alex1234321
/vote Charmer
/vote Historian
/vote Agent
/vote Vampire Rework
/vote Veteran/Witch Rework
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby MarsGodofWar » Sat May 01, 2021 9:49 am

I just had a decent read of Charmer and it sounds like a very fun and unique role. The only thing I don't like about it is the highest priority visitor taken the charm, just seems like a bad way to deal with RNG

Kleptomaniac is just bad

I couldn't vote Bishop as it would never be added to the game. He can just claim and then all visiting roles visit him and 3/4 of the town are immune for the night. Seems downright broken imo

I don't mind the game having 1 conversion role, people just need to suck it up when they get converted. I like the idea of the rework but would rather see it as a different role

So anyway I'll /Vote Charmer and /Vote Vampire Rework
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 01, 2021 9:52 am

MarsGodofWar wrote:I just had a decent read of Charmer and it sounds like a very fun and unique role. The only thing I don't like about it is the highest priority visitor taken the charm, just seems like a bad way to deal with RNG

Kleptomaniac is just bad

I couldn't vote Bishop as it would never be added to the game. He can just claim and then all visiting roles visit him and 3/4 of the town are immune for the night. Seems downright broken imo

I don't mind the game having 1 conversion role, people just need to suck it up when they get converted. I like the idea of the rework but would rather see it as a different role

So anyway I'll /Vote Charmer and /Vote Vampire Rework


You already voted for charmer but I’ll count your vampire rework vote.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Accepting

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 01, 2021 3:59 pm

/vote Blacksmith by alex1234321

I misunderstood this role before; now I think that it's worth a test.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby ThreeWiseGuys » Tue May 04, 2021 5:14 am

Bishop - ridiculously overpowered and would just create metas. I also think the game has enough protective roles.
Blacksmith Alex - I don't get it. Why does he create armor when he sees someone die
Blacksmith Mars - Seems op imo but would be fun to try out
Charmer - Seems interesting, decent concept
Historian - Meh boring
Agent - Why does Mafia need a Lookout?
Kidnapper - Decent role, I agree with the Mafia needing a Jailor to counter the town Jailor.
Sniper - Simple but also a very decent role, not every role needs to be complicated. The one kill could come in handy and smart players will learn to save it until they've narrowed down an important role. Would also help with the Jailor meta
Technician - Interesting concept, but it seems a bit complicated and doesn't sound that balanced
Auditor - Seems balanced and Netural Evils need more roles so not a bad idea at all. A few things need to be clarified though like what happens when you audit Neutrals or Mafioso?
Kleptomanic - Such a terrible role suggestion How the hell have so many people voted for this? Pretty much just a downtime Witch. This role will never be added so I don't see the point in it being tested
Omen - Meh
Vampire Rework - I don't mind Vamps
Veteran/Witch rework - Yeah fair makes sense
Netural Realignment - I agree with a Realignment but not this suggestion

/Vote Charmer, Auditor, Sniper, Kidnapper, Technician, Blacksmith Mars and Veteran/Witch rework
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby MarsGodofWar » Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 am

/unvote Charmer
/unvote Technician
/unvote Vampire Rework (would prefer it as its own role)
/unvote Agent (doesn't need any testing just add it)
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Wed May 05, 2021 7:02 am

People who aren't voting for my Vamp rework because they want it as it's own role should consider whether they want it in the game. If you want it in the game at all, the first step is to test it. Maybe now it's called a Vampire rework, but later it will be made into a standalone role. The point of testing is to see if a role that's balanced in theory is balanced in practice. The name of a role or concept is not part of that balance.

In my original thread, I made a poll about whether or not it should be its own role. Right now, there are three no responses but zero yes responses. If you want it in the game as its own role, the best way to get that done would be to vote for it here and vote yes in the poll in the original thread.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby cob709 » Sat May 08, 2021 1:24 pm

/vote Bishop by cob709
/vote Charmer by superdog551
/vote Historian by alex1234321
/vote Agent by cob709
/vote Kleptomaniac by Ezradekezra
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 08, 2021 2:16 pm

Right now Bishop, Historian, and Sniper are tied at 5 votes. While I would prefer for Historian to be added, Bishop is also a decent role that would benefit from testing to determine how it affects the meta. Meanwhile, Sniper is an independent Mafia killing role that doesn't require much skill. A good Sniper would kill exactly one person. Since it can't be roleblocked and has unstoppable attacks, a bad Sniper would also kill exactly one person in most situations. If you increase the number of kills, the role would be OP in conjunction with the deceptive abilities of other Mafia roles.

I can see a heavily reworked Sniper work as a Coven role. So we should see how it works with Coven teammates and make the necessary modifications to increase its skill gap in a fair way. But you can't get that kind of feedback by testing it as a Mafia role with Mafia teammates.

If you are not voting for Sniper, please vote for Bishop and Historian if you prefer for either of those roles to be added. Both of those roles need minor tweaks, but either would be far better and would benefit far more from testing than Sniper in its current form.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 08, 2021 3:06 pm

I didn't vote for Bishop because I found this argument compelling:
alex1234321 wrote:The biggest problem that I see with this role is the ability for metas to develop. If the Bishop somehow semi-confirms itself, it can tell all Town members to visit it, and often prevent a death for the night, especially if there is a TP alive to protect the Bishop itself.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 08, 2021 3:13 pm

Brilliand wrote:I didn't vote for Bishop because I found this argument compelling:
alex1234321 wrote:The biggest problem that I see with this role is the ability for metas to develop. If the Bishop somehow semi-confirms itself, it can tell all Town members to visit it, and often prevent a death for the night, especially if there is a TP alive to protect the Bishop itself.


If you had to choose between Bishop or Sniper, which would you pick?
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Brilliand » Sat May 08, 2021 4:13 pm

alex1234321 wrote:If you had to choose between Bishop or Sniper, which would you pick?


Hard to say. Like I said, I've proposed the Sniper myself in the past, and I kind of regret that I can't convince myself to support it now.

Bishop would be a more interesting role to play in the test games, but Sniper actually addresses one of the current problems with ToS, namely the Jailor meta.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Sat May 08, 2021 7:17 pm

Brilliand wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:If you had to choose between Bishop or Sniper, which would you pick?


Hard to say. Like I said, I've proposed the Sniper myself in the past, and I kind of regret that I can't convince myself to support it now.

Bishop would be a more interesting role to play in the test games, but Sniper actually addresses one of the current problems with ToS, namely the Jailor meta.


I agree that Bishop needs major changes. But the concept is there and testing could provide useful feedback about the type of changes that should be made.

Sniper is an independent Mafia Killing role, which is inherently bad imo. It could work as Coven, but testing it as independent MK would provide little to no useful information about how it would interact in a Coven game with Coven teammates.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Brilliand » Sun May 09, 2021 12:01 am

Looks like we have 4 roles with more than 5 votes anyway, so the tie hardly matters.
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun May 09, 2021 12:04 am

I expected Agent to have way more votes than this tbh
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Re: TG Role/Concept Poll | Voting

Postby alex1234321 » Sun May 09, 2021 7:04 am

Brilliand wrote:Looks like we have 4 roles with more than 5 votes anyway, so the tie hardly matters.


Wait I forgot how to count. Oops...
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