Role of the Week: Agent

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Role of the Week: Agent

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:36 pm

From now on, the Role of the Week will be a weekly forum thread where TG members can discuss a role and possible changes to it over the course of a full week. We are doing this on the forums so that we can discuss the role more in-depth than we otherwise could in the Discord where any discussions get buried. Hopefully, this will also make the TG subforum more useful as a place where we can have longer discussions about individual topics.

The RoTW does not have to be a ToS role. For this week, it will be a ToS role just to start simple. If this succeeds, we will continue with a combination of existing ToS roles, suggested roles that have gained significant popularity but have not been tested, and both old and new TG roles that have not gained much attention in recent months. This can include AR roles.

This week's RoTW will be Survivor. Feel free to discuss anything you want about the role. What are some of your favorite strategies? Is it overpowered? Underpowered? How would you change or overhaul the role.

This post will remain open for the next week, until 5/2/22 at 5:00pm EDT. After that you will still be able to post in this thread but a new role of the week will be added.

I'll go first with my thoughts about Survivor:

A lot of people think it's a boring role, but it's actually one of my favorite. As someone who wants to make the game end quickly, I like to push for any lynch that I can, preferably on players who are part of the faction that is more likely to lose at that point in the game. Every once in a while I have even claimed Sheriff with a fake red check in an attempt to get someone lynched on a quiet day. And I never, ever claim Survivor.

In terms of balance, the biggest problem with the role is that it can kingmake more easily than arguably any role in the game. I prefer NBs that function more like Amnesiac, which has to commit to a side and rarely serves as a kingmaker. Kingmaking is bad because it allows someone to choose the winner regardless of skill, which is exactly the problem with RNG but taken even further since you are completely changing the outcome of the game. I would not support any survivor overhaul short of requiring it to pick a side sort of like Viper. Actually Viper could work as a surv overhaul but with the requirement that it has to live to win and some way to impact the game before choosing a side. Maybe allow it to choose someone each day to talk to at night? That would be pretty fun without dramatically changing the game. But now the role is starting to get a little complicated.

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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:53 pm

Surv has these problems imo
1. Kingmaker
2. Too many vests
3. Boring to play
4. No way to contribute to whoever they side besides being just a vote


Problem 1 cannot be fixed without removing the "survivor" part from the role
Problem 2 is very easy to fix
Problem 3, there is many NBs which work as a surv rework (like visitor, or however it was called)
Problem 4...some may consider it is not a problem but rather the oposite, so I am gonna leave it there
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby EtherealEnder » Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:43 am

surv, as a role, is built to kinda sit on the side and wait till the game ends. you can't really remove that without removing what made it surv, and most reworks i see, though i love most of them, do just that.

that's the problem.

imo the best way to fix surv would be to give people a REASON to hang it or not hang it. no, an extra vote is not a good enough reason. imo shaman, a role currently in the role poll, is a good way to fix surv. you want shaman on your side so they don't kill you, but shaman has to kill SOMEONE or they will die. thus you now have an actual, impending reason to ever let the role have a place in your mind during a game.

(i mean shaman isn't written as a surv rework but i think it would work as one)
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:15 am

EtherealEnder wrote:surv, as a role, is built to kinda sit on the side and wait till the game ends. you can't really remove that without removing what made it surv, and most reworks i see, though i love most of them, do just that.

that's the problem.

imo the best way to fix surv would be to give people a REASON to hang it or not hang it. no, an extra vote is not a good enough reason. imo shaman, a role currently in the role poll, is a good way to fix surv. you want shaman on your side so they don't kill you, but shaman has to kill SOMEONE or they will die. thus you now have an actual, impending reason to ever let the role have a place in your mind during a game.

(i mean shaman isn't written as a surv rework but i think it would work as one)


I disagree. Surv was built to aggressively push for the game to end as soon as possible since you don't have many assets and the longer the game goes the more likely someone decides to kill you. The problem is that it's a kingmaker, plain and simple.

Shaman might fix the problem of Survivor not really affecting the game or other players' strategy, but it has its own issues. It still has the kingmaker issue since the goal is the same. But now you go from there being not enough external impact to too much impact. As it is SK can swing the game significantly with one individual kill, but SK has an incentive to keep the game going for as long as possible since it wants to prevent one side from winning decisively. Shaman has the opposite incentive of wanting to end the game quickly by killing members of the losing team. With the additional KPN the game will likely end within a day or two once one side appears to be winning. Faunae has the same issue but at least it has to commit to a side whereas Shaman will always try to kill the losing team.
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue May 03, 2022 7:39 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
EtherealEnder wrote:surv, as a role, is built to kinda sit on the side and wait till the game ends. you can't really remove that without removing what made it surv, and most reworks i see, though i love most of them, do just that.

that's the problem.

imo the best way to fix surv would be to give people a REASON to hang it or not hang it. no, an extra vote is not a good enough reason. imo shaman, a role currently in the role poll, is a good way to fix surv. you want shaman on your side so they don't kill you, but shaman has to kill SOMEONE or they will die. thus you now have an actual, impending reason to ever let the role have a place in your mind during a game.

(i mean shaman isn't written as a surv rework but i think it would work as one)


I disagree. Surv was built to aggressively push for the game to end as soon as possible since you don't have many assets and the longer the game goes the more likely someone decides to kill you. The problem is that it's a kingmaker, plain and simple.

Shaman might fix the problem of Survivor not really affecting the game or other players' strategy, but it has its own issues. It still has the kingmaker issue since the goal is the same. But now you go from there being not enough external impact to too much impact. As it is SK can swing the game significantly with one individual kill, but SK has an incentive to keep the game going for as long as possible since it wants to prevent one side from winning decisively. Shaman has the opposite incentive of wanting to end the game quickly by killing members of the losing team. With the additional KPN the game will likely end within a day or two once one side appears to be winning. Faunae has the same issue but at least it has to commit to a side whereas Shaman will always try to kill the losing team.

I think Survivor is so broken because of the Investigative result it's in.
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby DecDecAttack » Wed May 04, 2022 5:56 am

... Where are the next week's? It's been 9 days....
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby DecDecAttack » Wed May 11, 2022 4:55 pm

18 days now
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby alex1234321 » Wed May 11, 2022 5:10 pm

DecDecAttack wrote:18 days now


do you want me to post another role? this one died almost immediately so idk if it's worth it to do RoTW here when disc is much easier to communicate

but we don't want the subforum to die so I hope we can get more discussion here
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby DecDecAttack » Thu May 12, 2022 10:15 am

alex1234321 wrote:
DecDecAttack wrote:18 days now


do you want me to post another role? this one died almost immediately so idk if it's worth it to do RoTW here when disc is much easier to communicate

but we don't want the subforum to die so I hope we can get more discussion here


I do want you to post another, because if we do it enough we might be able to revive this forum.
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby alex1234321 » Thu May 12, 2022 12:44 pm

DecDecAttack wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
DecDecAttack wrote:18 days now


do you want me to post another role? this one died almost immediately so idk if it's worth it to do RoTW here when disc is much easier to communicate

but we don't want the subforum to die so I hope we can get more discussion here


I do want you to post another, because if we do it enough we might be able to revive this forum.


Alright I'll do one at the start of next week. Any ideas for a role you want to discuss?
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri May 13, 2022 3:00 am

alex1234321 wrote:Alright I'll do one at the start of next week. Any ideas for a role you want to discuss?

Hypnotist or Crusader.
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri May 13, 2022 11:27 am

Trapper

I think its the role with the most mixed opinions so it would be good to discuss about it
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri May 13, 2022 11:33 am

Another option is servant


I am gonna be honest, it really doesnt enters in my mind how it got acepted
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue May 17, 2022 5:02 pm

Alex the week started already
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Re: Inaugural Role of the Week: Survivor

Postby alex1234321 » Tue May 17, 2022 6:15 pm

The next role of the week is going to be Crusader! What do you guys think about it? Discuss here.

I don't like Crusader very much. It's a TP role with more kill power than any of the TKs and it has massive RNG that can swing the game. The RNG could be somewhat fixed with a priority list, and the role should have limited uses imo due to the massive kill power. Alternatively, I would suggest letting it kill all visitors of a player as a type of moving Veteran, but it should probably only have two uses in that case?
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue May 17, 2022 6:20 pm

The role should have to met a condition to attack

How about the same as ambusher buff? It only attacks if exactly 1 people visit your targer
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby WaveAqualei » Tue May 17, 2022 8:27 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:The role should have to met a condition to attack

How about the same as ambusher buff? It only attacks if exactly 1 people visit your targer

That makes it super useless if a Janitor/Forger is choosing the same person as the MK (Consort/Ambusher could also be included).
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby alex1234321 » Wed May 18, 2022 4:52 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:The role should have to met a condition to attack

How about the same as ambusher buff? It only attacks if exactly 1 people visit your targer


How do you predict that your target will get exactly one scum visit? Ofc you will be targeting people who are likely to die but why should you be punished because someone also decided to investigate them or to wave's point they got cleaned or forged?
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby EtherealEnder » Wed May 18, 2022 1:15 pm

Alternatively, I would suggest letting it kill all visitors of a player as a type of moving Veteran, but it should probably only have two uses in that case?


this would make it even less of a TP than it already is

crus's rng is an issue yeah but idk how to fix that without making it either 1) not a tp or 2) doc/bg 2.0
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby alex1234321 » Wed May 18, 2022 2:57 pm

EtherealEnder wrote:
Alternatively, I would suggest letting it kill all visitors of a player as a type of moving Veteran, but it should probably only have two uses in that case?


this would make it even less of a TP than it already is

crus's rng is an issue yeah but idk how to fix that without making it either 1) not a tp or 2) doc/bg 2.0



Oh I think it should be moved to TK. TPs shouldn't be able to have this kind of killing utility.
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu May 19, 2022 11:39 am

I still think that it should meet a condition in order to kill, a condition harder to achieve than just "someone visited your target"
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby CapWarrior2 » Fri May 20, 2022 5:37 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I still think that it should meet a condition in order to kill, a condition harder to achieve than just "someone visited your target"


Yea I agree, and I see this role as a half way mark between doctor and bg, but instead of killing the attacker, it kills anything whom visits. The problem isn't the fact that it can kill townie, but how it executes it imo. The RNG is really swingy. If it had a condition that was more unique then just someone walking into the wrong house and have a method that isn't complicated or a lengthy process then that would be alot more ideal. Realistically Crusaders don't do a whole lot of killing, unless there is more then 1 of them.
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby xXebicXx » Wed May 25, 2022 1:01 pm

Alright, well, the next role of the week is going to be Hypnotist. Discuss your opinions on it here.

I think Hypnotist is alright, but usually underpowered because it's completely countered by Spy, and to some extent, even LO, (eg. using Attacked/Protected on someone but LO sees only you visited target) and usually its ability is no use to the Mafia, though I agree claiming Transporter to cause confusion is a good thing most of the time.

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No useful ability
Completely countered by Spy
Soft countered by LO
Does have a good claim in Transporter

(Please note that the above is my opinion and not set in fact.)
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Re: Role of the Week: Crusader

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed May 25, 2022 1:16 pm

Its too easy to make a contradicting notification on someone, outing your existance

And for some reason devs never added the "you slept peacefully" thing even tho it was in the original idea
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Re: Role of the Week: Hypnotist

Postby alex1234321 » Wed May 25, 2022 2:49 pm

I would suggest in addition to "you slept peacefully" Hypno should be made omniscient. As in if its target is a TI and you do rbed/witched for example it will not give the message and for rb immune roles it should say you were immune. I don't remember all the other notifs but it should never give a notification that instantly outs it.
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