Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Test roles that have been suggested in simulated gameplay.

Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Remove Town Power
26
37%
Remove Citizen
45
63%
 
Total votes : 71

Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:57 pm

Gooose26 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.

I'd much rather play "find the scum" than "confirm the town". Citizens help with that immensely.

The whole rt cant make claimspace argument you are making is just stupid honestly. It allows you to claim anything, not just claim that you do nothing and hope town believes you. Sure, it is easier to just claim that you do nothing, but there is no skill involved in claiming you do nothing. With random town, we can create claimspace as well as bring in the skill of using deception, something very important in mafia games, in what you claim. Claiming citizen is just trying to hide and hope you don't get caught, which is what leads to confirming the town because there isn't scumreading when you just claim citizen in a game of ToS.

If you want to play find the scum, then you will also have to support my Town (Power) removal as well as Citizen, and also my unknown cause of death change. Silent roleblocking wouldn't hurt but that's not perfect yet. You need to remove confirmability in order to avoid confirm the town games(Town Power/Town Killing/Roleblockers), but you also need to create deception. If there is no deception, the game comes down to whoever leads the town, which leads to massclaiming, which leads to finding town games.

Please stop strawmanning me thanks

Also unknown cause of death is such a no-brainer that it kinda hurts to see TG still tells you how people died
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:41 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Please stop strawmanning me thanks

Also unknown cause of death is such a no-brainer that it kinda hurts to see TG still tells you how people died

Wasn't strawmanning but ok?

And at least we agree on something.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:12 am

Gooose26 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Perfect mechanical balance is entirely unachievable, and I'm not convinced that it's worth scrapping Cits for less Town power variance from role to role.

So what you are saying is, rather than finding balance in everything that we can, you would just prefer that we only find balance in certain aspects of the game because some things are just too much work and fixing everything is "too much work" to do and thus doing work isn't necessary. That's cool and all, but just because you don't care about balance doesn't mean that it isn't needed, and because we need balance we also need this change.


Gooose26 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Citizen doesn't need a "fix". And Citizen provides more claimspace than any number of RTs ever could.

The whole rt cant make claimspace argument you are making is just stupid honestly.

I count two

And yeah, while I see where you are coming from, I am merely unconvinced that power variance depending on who gets what is an actual issue that needs fixing.

We seem to agree on a lot of things though, not just the unknown cause of death. "At least we agree on something" seems a bit strong :P
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:19 pm

I meant it more as a friendly gesture, that we aren't in total disagreement, but you are right.

And I'll explain why I think it does, there's not much to argue if you are just "merely unconvinced" without proper opinions.

Think of players on a scale of skill, usually this scale can be determined by the ladder but elo isn't efficient enough right now to do that. I'll just use a scale of 1-10, 1 being a bad player and 10 being a great player. Now if we tally up all of the town's skill points together, and it is higher than that of the mafia's, then the town should win. But, there are multipliers to that because there are more town players and because of some town roles being focused on being better/worse. There is no problem with there being less mafia and if it is balanced properly the proportion of each mafia role could give use a formula to determine who should win. If the town is more skilled, then town should win. If the mafia(when proportioned to town) is more skilled, then mafia should win.

So that's the system, town power and citizen ruin this. Town power is proportioned as more powerful than a normal town role, say that a town power role is 2x more powerful than a normal role. That means that the player who rands town power is twice as much power than one. So if a player with the skill of 1 is given town power, then their overall effectiveness would be 2 compared to a player with the skill of 10 with the overall effectiveness of 20. So let's say there were 2 townies: 1 skill and 10 skill, 1 town power and one random town. If the 10 skill player has town power, then the overall effectiveness of town would be 21, but if the 1 skill player has town power then the overall effectiveness of town would be 12.

This should be the same number regardless of what roles are randed, and citizen has the same problem but rather than multiplying your effectiveness it divides it. So this is just clear swing because it is based on rng to determine roles. RNG determines how effective the town is.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby DoonLord » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:13 am

Gooose26 wrote:Think of players on a scale of skill, usually this scale can be determined by the ladder but elo isn't efficient enough right now to do that. I'll just use a scale of 1-10, 1 being a bad player and 10 being a great player. Now if we tally up all of the town's skill points together, and it is higher than that of the mafia's, then the town should win. But, there are multipliers to that because there are more town players and because of some town roles being focused on being better/worse. There is no problem with there being less mafia and if it is balanced properly the proportion of each mafia role could give use a formula to determine who should win. If the town is more skilled, then town should win. If the mafia(when proportioned to town) is more skilled, then mafia should win.


And I guess NK just never wins ever huh. It always hurts me when people forget that this game effectively has 3 factions instead of just 2.

#NKhasrightstoo

*cough

Also totally agree with the OP. We should strive for all town to be equivalent in power (and mafia)

While we are at it should we make random neutral's instead be NB to prevent swing from extra NE's?
Town of Salem needs better goals.
Marathon Runner (Neutral Benign)
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=67093
Mathmatition (Town Investigator)
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=68268
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:39 pm

Honestly treating NK as a full-fledged faction is a mistake in my eyes. They exist to speed up the game, not truly to win. Sad but true, and also the reason I'd support removing Neutrals from Ranked entirely.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby NopeTooFast » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:16 pm

no
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(Over 50 custom roles!)


Here's a generic spoiler full of hijinks because that's original

Spoiler:
NopeTooFast wrote:well unstart it i'm submitting a role

NopeTooFast wrote:You don't need a TI to find and lynch scum. Reveal as Mayor and start sleeping with them.

NopeTooFast wrote:if you really want to change spy, give it a mayor reveal

NopeTooFast wrote:the attacker is caffeine-rush fucked so hard they can't attack them.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:19 pm

Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:15 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general

Everybody Is Mafia Mafia 2
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:15 pm

NK is mechanically unbalanced and always will be as long as it remains as a solo faction. Saying it isn’t a faction doesn’t hold a lot of weight in my personal opinion because it wins the same as mafia but cannot win with mafia. The problem is that it can die too easily, and there is no way to stop that without making it impossible to kill. This makes NK swingy, and therefore unbalanced.

If you want fix that then you need to give NK the Witch win condition. Of course, the ranked rolelist would need to be scaled as this would be a direct buff to evils, but it would stop kingmaking and stabilize kpn.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:56 pm

At that point just go full-on and give Mafia two kills

Although arguably 2 KPN isn't even needed lol
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby chitownmvp01 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:24 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:remove town in general

Everybody Is Mafia Mafia 2


Nah pit all the neutrals against each other and remove night immunity. Last one standing wins.

Gooose26 wrote:NK is mechanically unbalanced and always will be as long as it remains as a solo faction. Saying it isn’t a faction doesn’t hold a lot of weight in my personal opinion because it wins the same as mafia but cannot win with mafia. The problem is that it can die too easily, and there is no way to stop that without making it impossible to kill. This makes NK swingy, and therefore unbalanced.

If you want fix that then you need to give NK the Witch win condition. Of course, the ranked rolelist would need to be scaled as this would be a direct buff to evils, but it would stop kingmaking and stabilize kpn.


NK winning with Mafia would be sooooooooooo OP, lol.

orangeandblack5 wrote:Honestly treating NK as a full-fledged faction is a mistake in my eyes. They exist to speed up the game, not truly to win. Sad but true, and also the reason I'd support removing Neutrals from Ranked entirely.


Agreed
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:30 am

Power is something that can easily be adjusted. There is no theory behind it. Obviously, if we give NK the ability to win with mafia, we will not keep the same ranked rolelist as we currently have. That would be overpowered. But what if we removed all of the evil members and left in with just town? Well, then the evils are underpowered. So there's a good middle ground that rests in the middle, and nothing is simply "overpowered" or "underpowered" by looking at face value. My points remain.

Just to be clear, giving the NK the NE goal makes it a second mafia killer, it's just not informed. So yes, mafia would just have 2 kills.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:04 am

Then why not just actually make it a second Mafia Killer?

For example, sure Arso may win with Mafia, but it either doesn't get any kills or probably takes out a few Mafia in the process as collateral
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:07 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Then why not just actually make it a second Mafia Killer?

For example, sure Arso may win with Mafia, but it either doesn't get any kills or probably takes out a few Mafia in the process as collateral

You can do whatever you want with a change. I’m just simply stating that NK in it’s current state is terrible because it’s a 3rd faction in a game built for 2 factions. If you want it to be a second mafia killer, then do it. If not, I’m sure we could balance around NE killers. That’s not the important part of the argument.

You can use Arso or Werewolf as examples but they are both terrible roles for their respective reasons. Serial Killer is salveagable, but then you should realise that a mafia Serial Killer is just a Godfather that kills roleblockers(which is a bad mechanic that should be removed. So a second mafia killer should just be a Godfather, or we can remove te terrible Godfather/Mafioso mechanic and have 2 mafiosos, which is a lot more balanced.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby OreCreeper » Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:02 pm

Citizen should not exist. Survivor exists because it is the only truly neutral role in the game. Citizen is just a survivor but aligned with Town. Literally no abilities or anything. A good role should be able to be helpful to its faction in a way other than just being an extra vote. Again, Survivor is an exception because of its neutrality. A good role should be useful, but have their usefulness depend on the skill of the person using it. No utility is not much better than negative utility, in all honesty. Is it not obvious how bad of an idea a Town Survivor would be, balance and utility wise? It's boring and UP, and would quickly become one of the community's most hated roles.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:54 pm

Sounds like you haven't played Citizen ever lmao

It's definitely a great role, is super fun to play, and lets you do a lot that you can't really justify doing with many other roles

That being said

I think you're in the wrong part of the forum lmao
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby BasicFourLife » Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:10 am

OreCreeper wrote:Citizen should not exist. Survivor exists because it is the only truly neutral role in the game. Citizen is just a survivor but aligned with Town. Literally no abilities or anything. A good role should be able to be helpful to its faction in a way other than just being an extra vote. Again, Survivor is an exception because of its neutrality. A good role should be useful, but have their usefulness depend on the skill of the person using it. No utility is not much better than negative utility, in all honesty. Is it not obvious how bad of an idea a Town Survivor would be, balance and utility wise? It's boring and UP, and would quickly become one of the community's most hated roles.

1. shut up
2. maybe not in tos, but in every mafia community it does exist cuz balance
3. S H I t u p
I am kindly telling you to fuck off. Thank you.

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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:55 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Since Citizens have been mentioned a lot: I don't think they'd help with balance all that much. They'd basically be Town's version of the Framer: useless and boring when they appear, if the people who roll them don't just leave. It seems like a really artificial way to "balance" the game by occasionally having up to 3 (edit: or even more than 3, depending on game mode/edits to the Ranked role list) people who are nothing but a vote. If Town is OP, this should be mitigated by nerfing the OP roles and/or buffing the competition in ways that counteract the Town's most OP strategies, not by introducing dead weight to the Town.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:20 am

Kirize12 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Honestly treating NK as a full-fledged faction is a mistake in my eyes. They exist to speed up the game, not truly to win. Sad but true, and also the reason I'd support removing Neutrals from Ranked entirely.

Agreed

This is what I call “loser theory”. If you are here accepting that a 15th of the rolelist is simply going to ruin somebody’s experience every single game, I’d argue that you don’t have the mindset to problem solve or work with others to build solutions. You’re simply accepting that Town of Salem will never be balanced and that it is people like you who derail every balance discussion that takes place.

Balancing isn’t a yes or no question, it is a question of how. The start of every suggestion is a belief that the game can be improved from it’s current state, whether physically in the game or just in theory on the forums. At the very least, this is me, a realist, trying to convince you, pessimists, that there is an underlying meaning. You guys aren’t visionaries.

orangeandblack5 wrote:Sounds like you haven't played Citizen ever lmao

It's definitely a great role, is super fun to play, and lets you do a lot that you can't really justify doing with many other roles

That being said

I think you're in the wrong part of the forum lmao

Name one ability that you are given when you roll the Citizen that you are not given when you roll any other Town role in Town of Salem. Your argument is based on meta play that you’ve experienced. You’ve built a bias to how the game of mafia should be played based on this experience, and it may be an effective style, but it’s not a standard of balance. You’re now indirectly enforcing this bias on others because you are using it as a standard of balance and it is not getting the whole picture from an aggregate perspective. That’s where FM and TG split on the topic: FM looks at meta while TG looks at balance.

You think it is a great role, you think it is super fun to play. Lots of others do not think it is a great role and lots of others do not think it is super fun. These are both entirely subjective statements that have no relation to the balance of the role. You also haven’t defined what “great” means. Does it mean great as in powerful? Citizen is not nearly as great as Jailor then. Does it mean great as in balanced? Well I’d argue that it is simply too weak. Does it mean great as in useful? Well, it definitely is useful for hosts who can’t make a balanced rolelist. All of this to say that this argument is irrelevant, at least to this section of the forums.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:01 pm

this is still being discussed lmao

balanced doesnt equal fun, no, but for competitive play you ought to prioritize overall game balance equality than worrying about each player being able to click a button each night.

mafia-based games aren't founded in their skill level through abilities primarily, it's primarily through your ability to properly analyze other players and effectively communicate that analysis.

abilities are just a shortcut for that.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:03 pm

also 2.5 years later and the poll is still entirely skewed to the favor of one specific side of the argument in its options for voting, imagine that.

call it a petition if you want, all that does is that it just lets you hide a negative majority to your supporting minority and make it look more supported than it is.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Gooose26 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:13 pm

Schultz128 wrote:this is still being discussed lmao

balanced doesnt equal fun, no, but for competitive play you ought to prioritize overall game balance equality than worrying about each player being able to click a button each night.

mafia-based games aren't founded in their skill level through abilities primarily, it's primarily through your ability to properly analyze other players and effectively communicate that analysis.

abilities are just a shortcut for that.

Who are you responding to? You’re not responding to me. None of my arguments have ever been for fun, I’m the balance guy.

You will see me argue that an inequality in the distribution of skill will result in an excess amount of swing depending on the RNG of the player role picker, which is inherently unbalanced as players have no control over who gets what roles. And that’s the srgument again town (power) and town (trash)

Schultz128 wrote:also 2.5 years later and the poll is still entirely skewed to the favor of one specific side of the argument in its options for voting, imagine that.

call it a petition if you want, all that does is that it just lets you hide a negative majority to your supporting minority and make it look more supported than it is.

2.5 years later and you’re still complaining about a useless “petition”. Its not about finding how many people believe what, and that’s never been the goal. Just because you might use the poll system for different reasons doesn’t mean that every other reason is wrong.
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Schultz128 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:25 pm

literally in the op of this bad thread wrote:It isn't a fun role to play and has bad mechanics, please get it out of TG immediately.


Gooose26 wrote:
Schultz128 wrote:You don't need abilities to use skill.

Yes but abilities supported by skill will always be better than no abilities with skill. Leaving it up to your teammates to do their part of using abilities isn’t very fun or fair for you as a citizen


mm.

Gooose26 wrote:2.5 years later and you’re still complaining about a useless “petition”. Its not about finding how many people believe what, and that’s never been the goal. Just because you might use the poll system for different reasons doesn’t mean that every other reason is wrong.


so then what's the point of it then, to show how many people actually read the thread? you can easily just show "hey man we got 40 voters supporting this!" when that's out of 100 total people and the other 60 don't support it, but you can't show that because you're only showing who's agreeing with.

you're advertising it as a petition, and then when someone criticizes the structure of your petition you say "the poll isnt actually relevant man what level of irony are you on", it's a shitty diversion tactic that makes the ideas being suggested seem more supported than it is, but because you play off the actual importance of this poll you're not claiming responsibility for the influence of its results. it's a slimy tactic that i would expect of TG.

either have the petition/poll to actually show who agrees/disagrees or don't have it at all, otherwise it's just a misleading piece of info, whether purposeful or not.

-Remove Town Citizen, Keep Town Power
-Remove Town Power, Keep Town Citizen
-Remove both Town Citizen & Town Power
-Keep both Town Citizen & Town Power
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Re: Petition to remove Town (Power) and Citizen

Postby Royee » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:06 pm

how do you get a balanced game in a heavily dependent RNG game?
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