:: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN!)

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Should this be implemented in Future Episodes?

Hell yea bro
3
21%
MMmmm... idk tbh bro, not really feeling this one.
5
36%
Idk dog, I don't play FM. I'm just reading this thread.
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Total votes : 14

:: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN!)

Postby Gobln » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:18 pm

1. Mafia and Neutral Killing choose their own roles.
2. Mafia Buffs
3. Town Buffs
4. Alignment changes


Rolelist
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Citizen x6


Godfather/Capo
Mafia Role 1
Mafia Role 2
Mafia Role 3


Serial Killer or Arsonist or Stalker


Alignment Changes
Town Citizen - Citizen
Town Investigative - Sheriff, Investigator
Town Protective - Doctor, Bodyguard, Marshal, Lookout All non-consecutive night actions.
Town Killing - Vigilante, Veteran
Town Support - Escort, Transporter, Medium
Mafia Head - Godfather, Caporegime
Mafia Tactical - Mafioso, Blackmailer
Mafia Support - Consort, Consigliere, Agent
Mafia Deception - Janitor, Framer, Disguiser, Prankster
Neutral Killing - Serial Killer, Arsonist, Stalker


vigilante: 3shot w/ guilt
Veteran: 2 alerts
Sheriff: Ignores new Framer change.

Mafia: All roles are unique.

In-depth role changes
Godfather
  • Once per night, Godfather can make any player, or themselves, a one-night Good Fella
  • A Good Fella negates and ignores ALL opposing roles. For instance, a Consort blocking an alerting Veteran would ignore the Veteran's attack.
  • Godfather can both make themselves a Good Fella and carry out the night-kill.
  • Immune at night.


Caporegime
  • Once per night, the Caporegime can freely transform itself, or any mafia member into a different mafia role.
  • This role transformation ignores any other role intervention (transporter, escort, etc).
  • The Caporegime is free to perform both the night-kill and transform a fellow mafia member.
  • The mafia member that is transformed is NOT roleblocked that night. They will perform the night-action of their current role.

Prankster
  • Completely disables ALL feedback for any player, until the Prankster dies.
  • Even if the Prankster is transformed into another role, the feedback-blocking will remain.

Framer
  • Picks a target. The Framer can change that target's results to match another role's results, until the Framer dies.
  • Even if the Framer is transformed into another role, the feedback-blocking will remain.

Blackmailer
  • No limits on it's message, or whatever.

Serial Killer
  • Cleans it's target at night. (Note: even if the kill fails, such as a doctor heal, that player is still marked as 'cleaned.' Whenever that player dies, whether at night or during the day, their role is not shown.

Arsonist.
  • Immune to all roleblocks.
  • Can ignite during the day and at night.
  • If igniting during the day time, the Arsonist must pm the moderator.
  • An ignition during the day time takes until 24 hours until EoD to take effect.
  • All burned players will also have their roles burned too.

Stalker
  • Immune to all roleblocks.
  • Ignores Veteran's alerts. Ignores Transports. Ignores
  • Informed of the player that visited them at night.
  • Among the Stalker's alive targets, the Stalker is informed of their roles (does not ignore Framer, but does ignore Prankster).
  • Among the Stalker's alive targets, the Stalker can choose to change their investigation results to that target's role.

======================================

Please note, though Mafia and Neutral Killing received large buffs, I want to stress that town was also buffed heavily.
Marshal and Medium are removed.


The moderator will send the players their rolecard.
The Mafia and Neutral Killing will choose their roles night 1
Last edited by Gobln on Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... NICE GOBLN!!!)

Postby Gobln » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:21 pm

Stalkers back bros... rejoice.


Flow 2019 aka Switch6 coming soon.
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:59 pm

Idk dog, I don't play FM. I'm just reading this thread.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby RAmcius » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:45 am

that lookout buff looks juicy :o
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby Gobln » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:51 am

RAmcius wrote:that lookout buff looks juicy :o

Bro... the mafia buffs actually make the mafia an actual TEAM.

It's crystal christ tier. I'm a fucking genius for this one.

I predict, just like with the current Episode list, I'll introduce this idea, and then nobody cares, but then I get banned and people are all on it like it's dope and shit.
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby RAmcius » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 am

well, buffing scum shifts game more to night play and more reliant on PRs, which is already too much reliant on PRs. I'd say cutting prank/disg/framer from maf, nerfing town a bit would be better approach and force people to play game during day phases rather than rely on PRs
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby fwogcarf » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:42 am

I don't like the first one, but I like the rest
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby Gobln » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:01 am

RAmcius wrote:well, buffing scum shifts game more to night play and more reliant on PRs, which is already too much reliant on PRs. I'd say cutting prank/disg/framer from maf, nerfing town a bit would be better approach and force people to play game during day phases rather than rely on PRs

No, don't get confused here.

We're not even really reliant on PRs right now, like, at all.
The issue is not that Town PR's are mega-OP and night-focused. The problem is, Town-PRs can get themselves easily confirmed.

Mafia has little to no counterplay against a Town that is gaining 1-2 confirmed townies. This is just giving Mafia the proper counterplay.

I thought a lot and, look, nightplay is a skill. It's one of ToS's trademarks, and I don't think there is any reason to remove it.

If we want the game to have any resemble to Town of Salem, the actual game, then buffing mafia and NK is a necessity. And buffing Town because of the Maf and NK changes is also necessary.
WE CANNOT have town with roles like Transporter, Doc and Bodyguard compared to mafia with the current Capo, GF, Prankster, Blackmailer and Framer.

It's not really an issue of nightplay vs dayplay. If we wanted to harbor the best dayplay, we would all play mountainous. But that's unrealistic.
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby RAmcius » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:24 am

Gobln wrote:
RAmcius wrote:well, buffing scum shifts game more to night play and more reliant on PRs, which is already too much reliant on PRs. I'd say cutting prank/disg/framer from maf, nerfing town a bit would be better approach and force people to play game during day phases rather than rely on PRs

No, don't get confused here.

We're not even really reliant on PRs right now, like, at all.
The issue is not that Town PR's are mega-OP and night-focused. The problem is, Town-PRs can get themselves easily confirmed.

Mafia has little to no counterplay against a Town that is gaining 1-2 confirmed townies. This is just giving Mafia the proper counterplay.

I thought a lot and, look, nightplay is a skill. It's one of ToS's trademarks, and I don't think there is any reason to remove it.

If we want the game to have any resemble to Town of Salem, the actual game, then buffing mafia and NK is a necessity. And buffing Town because of the Maf and NK changes is also necessary.
WE CANNOT have town with roles like Transporter, Doc and Bodyguard compared to mafia with the current Capo, GF, Prankster, Blackmailer and Framer.

It's not really an issue of nightplay vs dayplay. If we wanted to harbor the best dayplay, we would all play mountainous. But that's unrealistic.


indeed, town PRs can confirm themselves too easily, so why strongman isn't used more often? It doesn't need to be in play, just being a possible maf role in play would put pressure on town PRs to not reveal themselves so easily

It is an issue, when people hardly can find scum by themselves and wait TI to give them on silver platter, also, reliance on TPs too. We need balance, ToS don't really have a day play, it's rather contrary - if you try play during day, you more likely to die, so avoiding day play is a way to go
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby Gobln » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:45 am

RAmcius wrote:
Gobln wrote:
RAmcius wrote:well, buffing scum shifts game more to night play and more reliant on PRs, which is already too much reliant on PRs. I'd say cutting prank/disg/framer from maf, nerfing town a bit would be better approach and force people to play game during day phases rather than rely on PRs

No, don't get confused here.

We're not even really reliant on PRs right now, like, at all.
The issue is not that Town PR's are mega-OP and night-focused. The problem is, Town-PRs can get themselves easily confirmed.

Mafia has little to no counterplay against a Town that is gaining 1-2 confirmed townies. This is just giving Mafia the proper counterplay.

I thought a lot and, look, nightplay is a skill. It's one of ToS's trademarks, and I don't think there is any reason to remove it.

If we want the game to have any resemble to Town of Salem, the actual game, then buffing mafia and NK is a necessity. And buffing Town because of the Maf and NK changes is also necessary.
WE CANNOT have town with roles like Transporter, Doc and Bodyguard compared to mafia with the current Capo, GF, Prankster, Blackmailer and Framer.

It's not really an issue of nightplay vs dayplay. If we wanted to harbor the best dayplay, we would all play mountainous. But that's unrealistic.


indeed, town PRs can confirm themselves too easily, so why strongman isn't used more often? It doesn't need to be in play, just being a possible maf role in play would put pressure on town PRs to not reveal themselves so easily

It is an issue, when people hardly can find scum by themselves and wait TI to give them on silver platter, also, reliance on TPs too. We need balance, ToS don't really have a day play, it's rather contrary - if you try play during day, you more likely to die, so avoiding day play is a way to go

1. A simple strongman role isn't going to counter the self-confirming Town roles. The best play in those situations is still to reveal.
You have to understand that every PR that dies is also helpful to town. We need roles that not only have counterplay against the super strong Town PR, but they can fight back after they die.

Right now, my biggest issue with Mafia is that, it's just screwed over needlessly.
Why can't mafia both perform a kill, and use their night action? We know Mafia is underpowered compared to Town, so why not give them this tiny buff?
Why does Capo have so many restraints?

Looking at the current set of mafia roles. There is a really interesting foundation for good counterplay against Town. But because people are so scared of making the alignment OP, they bog it down with a bunch of little drawbacks that hurt mafia

2. I don't reeally know if you're talking about ToS the game, or FM at this point.

In the Future Episode Format, all alignments are actually useful. In FM's current state, Sheriff and Investigator are not really helpful at all. It's always better to roll a Lookout over them.
But with these changes, because feedback becomes more vague, SMART and ALIVE Investigative roles are important.

Currently, if a Town-PR is alive, that's good because it will eventually be given the chance to confirm itself.
But, it's also not that bad if the Town-PR dies. Mathematically, obviously Mafia has a harder time sneaking around, but the main issue is that Town will have have a strong, mechanically confirmed foundation on which they can do their reads, interact with people, etc/.


Here is the brutal truth, to be honest, Ramcius.

Day play is not better than Night play. In terms of skill, there is true value in interesting and balanced Night play. Giving players the ability to pull sick PR stunts... it's fun. And I think it can be balanced if we handle it with care.
If we wanted the best Dayplay, we would all play mountainous. But everyone knows that there is value in Night play too.
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby RAmcius » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:27 am

I love how you try twist my words with your "Brutal truth", but i never said that day play is more important, neither that night play shouldn't be a thing (so stop bringing mountainous).

But if you have long day phases, they should be meaningful. If you have roles like cit (and you have 6 of them in your rolelist), you have give meaning to them, or people, who rolls that role will lose interest in game instantly. I've seen plenty people straight up leaving ToS games (wehn i say ToS, i mean ToS, not FM) just because they rolled med.

You constatly say town is more powerful than maf, yet you not asking for town nerfs. If everyone gets strong PRs, games become really swingy, which isn't healthy for FM
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:46 am

where is magician
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in the distance the shelves
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby ladd » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:52 am

ICECLIMBERS wrote:where is magician

Image
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby chitownmvp01 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:57 am

NK will still always pick SK since it is still the strongest out of the 3 NKs.
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:10 pm

Can you give reasoning for each change in terms of necessity, effect on the meta, effect on the standalone role, and effect on the overall game?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby Eragon1329 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:23 pm

chitownmvp01 wrote:NK will still always pick SK since it is still the strongest out of the 3 NKs.


Stalker FTW
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Re: :: Future Episode Format :: (WOAH... GOBLN DOES IT AGAIN

Postby Gobln » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:52 pm

Stalker is actually the best NK in this ruleset.

Also, take note of how no FM Mods AKA bitch clique ain't postin' here yet.

They know they would lose to me in an FM debate. My game IQ is far-away-beyond tier.

Kirize12 wrote:Can you give reasoning for each change in terms of necessity, effect on the meta, effect on the standalone role, and effect on the overall game?

People aren't feeling this... which I should've known.
Cause you're all retards who play on a retard site. By retards, for retards.

But. I will say that

THE MOST IMPORTANT CHANGE! And the one I think will soon be implemented, even independent of me.
Is a Capo/GF buff that will give Mafia more versatility.

Moving Lookout to TP is also really important. I think if there is one easy change that can be made for the next episode, it's that one.

These changes are way good because they keep/enhance the Town of Salem kind of game, except they make it balanced.
I know Mafia drafting their own roles is pretty out there, but it would add so much in terms of strategy, teamwork and overall enjoyment to the game.


Anyway, on the subject of NKs.

Right now, Arso is actually on the same level as Serial Killer. People just haven't been playing Arsonist correctly.
I would literally be way better as Arsonist, I just lurk and then douse half the ppl, and then ignite. Ez Pz shit tbh.

But in my reworked version of FM, which will eventually be real, SK = Arson > Stalker
Stalker is the least powerful... but only slightly. And it NEEDS to be in the game, since it helps out Arsonist a great deal. Without Stalker being possible, then Arsonist would be worse.

There is nothing wrong with a lot of roles, or a lot of crazy night play shenanigans. I know Ramcius is trying to say that Day play is better or whatever, but its really not.
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