Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

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Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby SlSaana » Thu May 25, 2023 1:33 pm

Hello.

i was banned for 'spamming' and i would like to appeal.

Report Details
Spoiler: Report ID: 3926004
Reported User: 7. SlSaana (Saana)
Report Submitted: May. 17, 2023 11:04 am
Reported Reason: Spamming
Details: Being rediculous. Won't stop telling people to vote
spamming day chat
According to the reporter, i was "being rediculous". Aside of the spelling error, being ridiculous is not properly definable, and not a reportable offense.
They say i "won't stop telling people to vote". Which is not a reportable offense. In fact, As Town, the best way to dispel corruption is through democracy, and it is never enough to stress how important it is to vote.
But lets take a glance at 'spamming day chat'.

Replay logs
Spoiler: Day 3

Saana: We dont vote 1.
Saana: We vote 11.
Saana: Town vote with confirmed trans we vote 11.
Saana: i AM CONF TRANS WE VOTE 11.
Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.
Saana: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.

Defense

Saana to Coffee: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.
Saana to Ann Putnam: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.
Saana to Deodat Lawson: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.
Saana to basic kitty: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.
Saana to Hugh Jass: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.
Saana to KnightNoot: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.
Saana to Jonathan Corwin: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.

Judgement

Saana: Saana: i AM CONF TRANS ALL TOWN VOTE 11.
Saana: ALL TOWN i AM CONF TRANS AND DID NOT VOTE THIS UP 11.
Saana: YOU GUILTY WE LOSE.
Saana: ALL TOWN MUST INNO.
Saana: Swappern1: 10 Sarah Bishop - 13 Jonathan Corwinn2: 5 Ann Putnam - 9 Jugh Jass

Post Trial

Saana: Ok whoever is town that upped this deserves to lose.
Saana: Yes so 11 is fake.
Saana: Sinec there was no RB.
Through the entirety of Day 3, in no individual part did i write the same message twice. Each message through each phase (Day Start, Defense, Judgement, Post Trial) is unique. The part of phase is important because if a player says 'TOWN VOTE X i FOUND X SUSP" during Day Start and repeated it during Judgement, then said it again Post Trial but in a different form such as "JAILOR i FOUND X SUSP EXECUTE THEM", this is not considered spam because they inherently mean something different. In Day Start, it means "vote X player". In Judgement, it means "Vote innocent on Y player and vote X instead". In Post Trial, it means "Vigilante and Jailor please handle X player, they are confirmed evil". For these reasons, while there is one message repeated across phases, it is not considered spam.

Moreover, in Town of Salem, it is very common that players will repeat the same sentence but with different wordings. As Jailor You ought to lead the Town. You ought to tell them to inno or to vote someone in different ways. That's just the way the game is. If writing the same thing twice is considered spam, then a Jailor saying during Day Start "Y player is confirmed" then saying "Inno Y is confirmed" would be a bannable offense. But it isn't and shouldn't be. The Jailor will say it and repeat it to exert his/her authority and influence. And if this becomes a bannable offense, then there is no point in playing it.

Thirdly, i did whisper the same message to all people in the lobby, once each. This can be considered spam, but technically each player sees it once only, hence it cannot really be judged that way. Whispering every player the same message once or saying that message openly once, has effectively the same effect on each individual player (except Blackmailer). And it is during Defense phase, which should be viewed separately from Day Start and Judgement, as argued previously. In which case, i said one message to each player individually, hence it cannot be seen as spam.

Lastly, i want to point out interesting things. i am one of Town of Salem's most hated players of all time. People will find any reason to report me.
Previously (Report ID: 3683991), i was reported for 'admitting to being AFK'. But if You follow the game properly, it was clear the game was lost, unironically because Mafia did not listen to me. i clearly said in Night 1 who was Veteran and Godfather chose them as target. Mafioso died due to that. Godfather was jailed Night 2 upon which i said i was going AFK, because the game was lost as we had no Mafia Killing.
In this game, it is clear that i was once again target of hatred. Lets look at some of the messages of my reporters.

Replay logs
Spoiler: Hugh Jass: 7 stfu
Hugh Jass: 7 you're snnoying
Hugh Jass: 7 is annoying
Coffey to Unlucky: no sorry - 7 annoyed me by pushing me
Coffey: 7 and mafioso same account would be my guess
Coffey: 3 you missed the night chat with mafia
Hugh Jass: i reported
Hugh Jass: 7
Hugh Jass: for spam
Coffey: report 7 for spamming chat
Annoying is not a reason to report someone. In fact, one of the reporters literally admitted that i was annoying because i was pushing them. They were Mafia and i was Town. my job is to push Mafia, and if me trying to win annoys them and is considered 'being rediculous', and BMG acknowledges that as a valid reason to permanently ban someone, then please by all means keep me permanently banned.
Its clear they are a bad loser. They lost to me and started bringing up excuses and even went as far as claiming i was multi-accounting with the Mafioso. This by itself should already be enough reason to dismiss the report as its obviously made based on hatred towards a player, malicious intent of taking revenge after a loss, not wanting to improve the game by addressing an issue with someone breaking the code of conduct.
When reporting someone, there is no 'I hate him/her' reason or 'annoying' reason. This report is obviously 'i hate Saana' and thus should be dismissed.

i hope my appeal is taken into consideration, and to hang some more Jesters tomorrow!

Saana.
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Re: Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby TrialBot » Thu May 25, 2023 1:35 pm

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Re: Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby Jerme » Sat May 27, 2023 12:20 pm

Greetings,

please note that somethin called "wisperspamming" still exists, thus sending whispers with the same content multiple times is considered spamming, regardless if the on receiving the whisper is always a different one or not. Along with that, does each whisper also trigger a whispering notification..
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Re: Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby SlSaana » Mon May 29, 2023 12:07 am

i understand where You are coming from. Theoretically, sending the same message repeatedly regardless of receiver can be considered spam.

But in practice, following that logic makes Town of Salem virtually unplayable. i get blackmailed. Then what? If i spam votes, i get banned for spamming (i.e creating multiple vote notifications, similarly to whisper notifications). If i don't spam votes, i get hanged for not spamming votes. So i either lose the game, or lose my account. There is no winning when following "each whisper also trigger a whispering notification". The rules should NEVER EVER put anyone in a default position where they either lose the game, or lose their account.

Whispering multiple people the same message is mandatory to increase fidelity. A common Mafia strategy is to claim Investigator and claim to have investigated the attacking target. The Mafia player just has to quickly write the role results when the Last Will is revealed. The player name/number can be prepared during the night as the target is known.
Now a real Investigator who checks a player who just happens to be attacked by Mafia (or died for any other reason(s)), had known the results before the Last Will shows up. The way to increase fidelity is by whispering players the results before the attacked player's Last Will shows. And for this to work, the Investigator has to whisper multiple people the results, preferably as many as possible, since if its whispered to only one or a few players, and that player(s) end up being evil, they could lie about the content of the whisper(s).
i have done this countless times, saw people do it countless times, and i was never ever reported or banned for it, and i never ever heard anyone getting banned for this. Nobody in the community considers this a spam. Whispering people the same thing once was never seen as a bannable offense.

There are several other strategies with whispering multiple/all alive players. But i do not think it is necessary to further elaborate on my point. If triggering multiple notifications is worthy of a permanent ban, then You can safely permanently ban every player that has 200 ranked games. There is literally nobody that doesn't spam votes when blackmailed.

This report is 'rediculous'. Everything about it. The reporter is obviously rule-sharking. They admitted they were annoyed by me pushing them, and they were basically thinking of filling the report as "Being rediculous. Hard pushed me". But that would've obviously not pass through, so they adjusted the wordings a little bit and here we are.
Even if i did something that is a bannable offense, just the fact there is proof of the reporter rule-sharking should be sufficient reason to lift the ban. It works like that in real life too! If the police storms my house without permission to do so from the government and finds illegal programs installed on my laptop, or me possessing illegal items, i will not be sentenced or charged, because the proof of my guilt has not been acquired legitimately. This law prevents the police or other factions to rely on illegal means to acquire proof of guilt, and thus discourages them from doing it. Similarly, revoking ban when rule-sharking is detected discourages people from rule-sharking.

Usually, i'd ask to at least reduce the ban from permanent to say a month. But i feel i cannot do it. This is more than just a ban appeal. Its about Town of Salem.
The idea of a temporary ban is for the player to ponder about the mistake(s) he/she made. To try to improve as a person by reforming, and come back to the game and the community, as a kinder, more polite, more compassionate person. But i am being told to lose my games or lose my account. i am being told i cannot hard push people or else i am being 'rediculous' and spamming. Basically i am being told i cannot play the game. As much as i want to be a better person, there is nothing really to ponder about. There's no way for me to reform over this.
If the rules do not allow me to play Town of Salem, then there is no difference between obeying the rules or being permanently banned. Either way, i cannot play Town of Salem. Personally, if i could choose, i'd rather take a permanent ban.

Please give it a second thought, or allow me a second opinion from a different moderator.
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Re: Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby Jerme » Mon May 29, 2023 7:37 am

Spamming votes is different from that for now. Votes are not visible in reports, thus you can still vote 4 times that to signal you being blackmailed.
Spam whispers is neither mandatory, nor neccessary. You can still whisper 1-3 people and be done with that, but do not have to tell 6+ of that, especially when you already told that everyone previously in the chat.
The report is about you, not about a spelling mistake someone else has done, so I strongly ask you to stop the lamentation of the missspelled word. Just keep in mind that there are 2 or more players opting to click the report-button required in order to have a report generated, which means the one you are talking about was not the only person being annoyed and correctly under the impression of you having broken the spam rule.
When you broke the rules, then you get punished for that, I am not sure what you are attempting to reference. When there is reasonable suspicion, the police can go for a search warrant. I'd deem the report more as a surveilance video than anything else. If there is a suspected midemeanor, then the footage will be reviewed and anyone found committing a crime can face consequences.

Based on our rules may only invalid reports be appealed. Since we're using a strike based system, each strike will increase the duration of the next punishment, up to the fourth being permanent. There is nothing we may do there. You are free to return using a new account, though. The rules do not forbid you to play the game, as there is no need to gamethrow, spam, harass someone, cheat etc. If your playstyle requires a rulebreak, then you might need to reconsider that one, instead of blaming the rules.
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Re: Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby SlSaana » Mon May 29, 2023 11:15 am

i have already explained why whispering 1-3 players only is not enough. That 1-3 players could be evil(s), and they can claim i did not whisper an Investigator will, but just sent some non-sense or even claimed Witch to them. And then it becomes a 1f1 up to 3f1. In such case, i'm actually in a disadvantage as people are likely to hang the one to confirm 2-3 evils. The game is no longer forgiving like back in the days where a Retributionist easily wins the game with 1 mouse click. 1 mislynch often leads to a guaranteed loss.
Whispering as many people as possible is the safest way to confirm myself as Investigator. Because there are more Town players than evils, even if the evils wanted to claim i did not whisper an Investigator will, the Town will back me up and then evils basically just outed themselves and we win the game.
i have thousands of games on my account. i have done this countless times, seen people do it countless times, never ever has this been a problem. But now i am suddenly being permanently banned for this without even a single warning strike.

"Spamming votes is different from that for now. Votes are not visible in reports, thus you can still vote 4 times that to signal you being blackmailed."
As a player, i don't care what You can see or what You cannot see. i care about gameplay. About Town of Salem. If You say creating multiple notifications for all players is a bannable offense, then spamming votes when blackmailed should be a bannable offense, regardless if You can or cannot see it. And if You want to make the argument that You cannot see it, thus cannot punish players for it (yet), then players could just video record someone spamming votes and submit the video as proof of them spamming votes, and now You cannot make the argument that You could not see it anymore. Then spamming votes when blackmailed is worthy of a permanent ban as they are creating too many notifications for other players. No player would want to see such a rule enforced. Its so easy to rule-shark people over this. You can safely ban every player with 200 or more ranked matches on their account because everyone does this.

i would like a second opinion from a different moderator. Banning someone with thousands of hours and thousands of games over something like creating multiple notifications that everyone does on a daily - no on an hourly if not on a minute basis, is ridiculous, absurd, unfathomable, unjustifiable, totally detached and oblivious from the game and the community.
i am NOT saying i am allowed to break the rules because i have thousands of hours/games on my account. The rules should apply to everyone equally. But i am saying i have tremendous amount of experience and from that experience, i know how the players feel, play and enjoy Town of Salem. i know EVERYONE spams notifications in several ways in ranked games including when blackmailed. If that's a bannable offense, then we're all guilty of spamming. And its just a matter of who is rule-sharking and who isn't.

Also, another note, i have technically 4 guiltied reports. i feel 3 out of 4 of them are unfair. The gamethrow report, i remember clearly. That one was deserved. i did something very stupid and i totally deserved that. The other 3 including this one, however are just non-sense. i did not appeal 2 of them because i did not feel it was necessary. i am only appealing this one because its a permanent ban.
But now that You're mentioning the strike system, i have to add that it should have an expiring period. A player making a small mistake and breaking the rule once in thousands of games is very understandable. We're humans, we make mistakes. In years of playing the game, its understandable that we have a bad moment and we do something stupid. Maybe the player is drunk, had a really bad day at work, is currently going through depression, has a bad lobby harassing her/him and snaps out at someone, i don't know. If a player makes one honest mistake per year, or once in 1000 to 2000 games (like i seem to do), it should not lead to a permanent ban in 4 years. That's ridiculous.
After a year with no guiltied report, a strike should be lifted. Preferably if its counted in games played after the strike being issues, because one could just play on a different account for a year, then come back with a strike gone for free. But if its counted in games, its fair for players that do not smurf.

Please give me a second opinion from a different moderator. i think its a reasonable request. If a judge rules against a defendant, they should be allowed to appeal for a second opinion, usually from a higher judge.
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Re: Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby Jerme » Tue May 30, 2023 10:21 am

As you wish to have a 2nd opinion I will no further reply to any of your comments in regards of the spamming report. It was already established that our opinion on this differ.
In regards of the other mentioned reports: Archived reports are not appealable according to our guidelines, thus is the hatespeech/harassment report not able to be appealed. The leaving report seems to be pretty fair, as being afk is also handled as the report reason of "leaving". You did perform what you were accused of and that is against the game's rules. Newsflash: You are not above the game's rules, nor are you "too good at the game" to be banned.
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Re: Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby SlSaana » Tue May 30, 2023 3:53 pm

Thanks for granting me a second opinion!

The rest of this message is an analysis of the 'leaving' game. i'm writting this for 2nd moderator when/if they check both reports.

Report Details Spoiler: Report ID: 3683991
Reported User: 12. SlSaana (Saana)
Report Submitted: May. 01, 2022 5:20 pm
Reported Reason: Leaving
Details: AFK admission mafia chat and last will


Night 1, i said to my Mafia team that a player claimed Mayor (in whisper) but is Veteran.

Saana: 6 claimed mayor but is veterean

my Godfather ignored my message, and attacked the Veteran who alerted. So my Mafioso died. Moreover, Investigator checked my Godfather.

Moe Fugga to boo: n1. Suffering = BG GF ARSO

It makes sense that my Godfather, who claimed Sheriff, would be jailed on night 2, as a Godfather check. And indeed they were. At that point, the game was completely lost. We had lost our Mafioso, and our Godfather was permanently jailed, so we had no Mafia Killing. Remember that there was no Neutral Killing in this patch, so essentially evils had no way to get any kills. It was just a matter of time for Investigators and Sheriffs to check us. And i know there are Investigators and Sheriffs because i am the Blackmailer, i read their whispers with Jailor. On night 2, i said this:

Saana: Noob GF.
Saana: Saana: 6 claimed mayor but is veterean
Saana: [REDACTED] has instead decided to attack Cloud.
Saana: i am AFK.
Saana: GF is an absolute joke.

There was no win condition. i could try to blackmail the hard confirmed Investigator, but they will still get results, and will spam vote me when they find me as Spy/Blackmailer/Jailor, upon which i will be voted up and guiltied. i could shout 'WITCH CONTROL JAILOR INTO GODFATHER SO WE CAN KILL!' but then i am outing myself and i get hanged, making it 1 Random Mafia vs the world - even less winnable. i was still checking occasionally if Witch controlled Jailor into Godfather, or if Godfather abandoned the game for one of us to promote. None of that happened.
i cannot control my Godfather's actions unfortunately. They decided to ignore my warning and send Mafioso to her/his grave. They chose to not tank the -30 ELO after hard throwing my game. They could've made a play and openly claimed jailed Godfather and in need of Witch to force Jailor to execute them. Literally everything The Godfather did was wrong. And i have no control over that.
Objectively speaking, i played a perfect game as i read that the Mayor claim was Veteran. i just ran out of cards very quickly, as quickly as first night, due to my Godfather attacking Veteran, and unluckily Investigator checking my Godfather. Luck just was not on my side this game.

It is not gamethrowing to AFK when the game is completely lost. In fact, many Town players knowingly vote their teammates to speed the game up when they have no win condition. For example if 2 Town members like Sheriff and Medium are alive against 4 Mafia members. Following some dictionary defintion, doing so is gamethrowing. But in practice, in Town of Salem, it just isn't. Realistically, there is no way for those two Town roles to win against 4 Mafia members. In theory, You can hope that 3-4 of those Mafia members disconnect or something. But that's just not happening.
Another example is when a Mafia member outs the entire team day 1. Whether i go AFK, or try hard, makes no difference. Especially in that patch where there was no Neutral Killing. But even in this patch where there is, i am not obliged to play for Neutral Killing to win.
The game i was reported in, it was decided after night 1. Anyone with 100 ranked matches understands that. me going semi-AFK was a very understandable decision.

It is yet again blatantly evident that the Mafioso was salty that her/his Godfather misplayed hardcore, that i am better than her/him, as i knew who was Veteran, and thus resorted to rule-sharking. Similarly to the 'spamming' game, i was yet again accused of cheating.
Tea: AND BTW HOW U KNOW THAT WAS VET?
Tea: well how u know that was vet? are u cheating?


Its the same pattern as with the 'spamming' report. They obviously hate me and want to report me. They rule-shark, try to find loopholes, claim i am cheating, claim i am throwing, i am rude, i am spamming, i'm this and that.

Honestly, i am disappointed that i even have to defend myself on this report. Any player, moderator, spectator, who takes a little bit of time analysing this game, will easily realize the game was lost after night 1.

Saana: Moderators will see it and realize "Oh game was over because GF was noob".

Maybe i was wrong to think so... But i do hope You understand what 'spamming' and 'gamethrowing' means beyond what the dictionary says.
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Re: Appeal: SlSaana (Saana) [Spamming]

Postby Flavorable » Wed May 31, 2023 12:48 pm

Moderator Message: Your appeal has been denied. Your reports are valid and valid suspensions or bans cannot be appealed.
No reply to your support ticket after 15 business days? PM me with your ticket number.

You may PM me for clarifications on appeal verdicts, but keep in mind the verdict will not change.

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