Danger of asking for tp/lo n1

[XxCottonCandyxX]

So I'm a very low elo player (around 1200ish) which may be why I have this problem, but a common theme I notice in many games is that someone (usually the jailor, mayor or powerful TI role like inves/LO) would ask for tp/lo n1.

It was a very new strategy to me when I came back to ToS after a while of not playing and I read up about it on forums (but those threads were ages ago and I don't feel like necroing so here's a new topic) and I think the main idea is that too many important town roles were dying due to maf/sk in the first couple of nights, so you're guaranteeing several nights of protection by asking for tp/lo d1 because evil roles generally won't take the chance.

I agree that n1-n2 it does work, and powerful rules have pretty much immunity then, BUT

I've personally have several issues with this. The main danger to me, is that by revealing yourself as a potentially powerful role (some evils also ask for tp/lo to pretend claim), you're removing protection from other players. It's all well d1 d2, but when several other roles have been revealed (mayor, lookout, shreiff, ret, doc, bg, escort etc), by having the tp/lo be on you. You're removing the possibility that they're on the others. Whereas with normal play, if an important role is revealed, they don't ask for it, and it's assume that tp/lo MAY be on them. Or they MAY CHOOSE NOT TO because they think maf isn't going to attack for that reason, and they get a player that maf is likely to attack and it saves town a dead player. In the games I play if you're tp/lo and not on jailor or those claims pretty much d1, you get lynched. So if you are good, you auto get lynched and it costs town so you have to be on jailor/those requests etc.

And for those who are saying "but with revealed and protected jailor/inves in the early days, they could lead town" I disagree there also. A strong inves/bg/doc/sheriff claim by mafia/consig/executioner etc, is enough to mislead jailor within the first few days where there isn't enough information to establish which counterclaims/claims are legit, and even if a scum role is claiming a good role, and there's evidence against the scum role, and the scum role makes up evidence against the person claiming evidence against them. It's essentially a mudslinging competition. You can't know for sure.

I've seen jailor/important roles mislead and fck up by lynching town due to scum role claims, and then having revealed good roles getting picked of my maf/sk before the tps go next and then the jailor.

So yeah. Personally I'm a little unsettled by the strategy as I think it's quite dangerous and I hope to see less of it as I hopefully move up the ranks.

All the games I've played as jailor recently I haven't claimed as d1 and won quite nicely imo.

When I'm maf I swear it's so easy when jailor claims. Because it also automatically limits wasted kills, sometimes tp/lo reveals themselves. You got your fellow maf sometimes claiming strong roles in town liek sheriff/inves/spy and throwing people of. It can't last for long but it practically makes maf immune in the first couple of daysd where no one has enough information. Generally I tend to get the TI first, then TP, and then maf has majority. In games hwere jailor claims d1 when I'm mafia, I feel they're easy wins.

So yeah, thoughts on this strategy and the dangers of claiming tp/lo n1?

[Anyar]

(1350 ELO here) Asking for tp/lo d1 is actually considered one of the most OP strategies in Ranked, even after the Arsonist buff.

First off, tp/lo should usually be on Jailor, not on other roles, because Jailor is such a powerful role and he deserves all the protection. If he doesn’t ask for tp/lo, he can die to mafia/jailed NK and even be cleaned, and town won’t be able to save him or know who visited for a guaranteed lynch. Other roles are generally lower priority or reveal in time to lynch evils. Besides, tp/lo are probably more likely to save Jailor than one of the several other townies.

Ideally all townies should whisper Jailor their role/will d2, so Jailor can put it in his will and act based on his info. Even without this, scumreading and confirmed townies can easily disprove evils so the mudslinging is really just useless desperation, and if there IS a mislynch, Jailor can just exe the confirmed evil. One of the main points of Jailor revealing is so he can confirm townies and deal with bad claims.

Honestly, in many cases it depends on how active town is and how good of a Jailor you get. If your Jailor asks for tp/lo then goes afk the rest of the match it’s hardly a fair game.

[XxCottonCandyxX]

(1350 ELO here) Asking for tp/lo d1 is actually considered one of the most OP strategies in Ranked, even after the Arsonist buff.

First off, tp/lo should usually be on Jailor, not on other roles, because Jailor is such a powerful role and he deserves all the protection. If he doesn’t ask for tp/lo, he can die to mafia/jailed NK and even be cleaned, and town won’t be able to save him or know who visited for a guaranteed lynch. Other roles are generally lower priority or reveal in time to lynch evils. Besides, tp/lo are probably more likely to save Jailor than one of the several other townies.

Ideally all townies should whisper Jailor their role/will d2, so Jailor can put it in his will and act based on his info. Even without this, scumreading and confirmed townies can easily disprove evils so the mudslinging is really just useless desperation, and if there IS a mislynch, Jailor can just exe the confirmed evil. One of the main points of Jailor revealing is so he can confirm townies and deal with bad claims.

Honestly, in many cases it depends on how active town is and how good of a Jailor you get. If your Jailor asks for tp/lo then goes afk the rest of the match it’s hardly a fair game.

Oh hey, mine's around 1300-1350 now. We're almost the same!

If jailor is so powerful then how come jailor doesn't clearly skew the game in town's favour by night 2 or 3? Which is typically when other roles are revealed that start competing with jailor for tp/lo and die. It would only be worth asking for tp/lo if jailor skews it in town's favour by the first couple of days. Otherwise it changes nothing.

That's highly unlikely. If jailor ain't making a fuss for tp/lo (and assuming there's only 1 other tp/lo claim, which is usually inves), then that's only 1 player which mafia knows they shouldn't attack. The odds of them hitting jailor may happen, but it's the minority of all games. He can always ask for tp/lo if he jails tp/lo and he trusts them. He doesn't have to reveal right away, but maybe several days later when it's obvi he can whisper them anytime. If he jails TI, he can get info from TI as well as claim info, to work out who tp/lo are anyway. So it's not like jailor can't get tp/lo protection. It's just that they don't have to ask for it n1.

Yes, I agree with that but it rarely happens.Yeah. In games where I've been maf though, the town with the silent jailor has been the strongest lmao.

[Anyar]

Oh hey, mine's around 1300-1350 now. We're almost the same!

If jailor is so powerful then how come jailor doesn't clearly skew the game in town's favour by night 2 or 3? Which is typically when other roles are revealed that start competing with jailor for tp/lo and die. It would only be worth asking for tp/lo if jailor skews it in town's favour by the first couple of days. Otherwise it changes nothing.

That's highly unlikely. If jailor ain't making a fuss for tp/lo (and assuming there's only 1 other tp/lo claim, which is usually inves), then that's only 1 player which mafia knows they shouldn't attack. The odds of them hitting jailor may happen, but it's the minority of all games. He can always ask for tp/lo if he jails tp/lo and he trusts them. He doesn't have to reveal right away, but maybe several days later when it's obvi he can whisper them anytime. If he jails TI, he can get info from TI as well as claim info, to work out who tp/lo are anyway. So it's not like jailor can't get tp/lo protection. It's just that they don't have to ask for it n1.

Yes, I agree with that but it rarely happens.Yeah. In games where I've been maf though, the town with the silent jailor has been the strongest lmao.

Neat.

I guess that also depends on whether you like VFR, and whether Jailor is actually active (the point of revealing is so townies can whisper you their roles, hoping BMer doesn't exist, and so you can lead the town on lynches if Mayor isn't out).

Jailing TP/LO also takes time and if he purposefully jails one to ask for help he's wasting a chance at a potential evil. If he doesn't get lucky then he'll just be without TP/LO, and of course, knowing who to trust is also no easy task.

Honestly there's just not so much of an established meta around 1300, I feel. People vaguely know that Jailor revealing d1 is called an OP strategy by some people, but after they reveal they don't really know what to do.

[kyuss420]

also by asking for TP/LO day1, the LO will be able to confirm the TP roles, which he can whisper to jailor, giving jailor 3-4 confirmed townies straight off the bat, (jailor,LO,TP,RT TP) 5 or 6 if NK and maf scored a non LO/TP townie kill, having 5 or 6 townies out of 9 confirmed by day 2 is a huge advantage for town.

danger would be WW will hit you n2, but die to BG, or arso will douse you n1, but he will be seen by LO, but if the NK is SK, town have a huge advantage

[XxCottonCandyxX]

Oh hey, mine's around 1300-1350 now. We're almost the same!

If jailor is so powerful then how come jailor doesn't clearly skew the game in town's favour by night 2 or 3? Which is typically when other roles are revealed that start competing with jailor for tp/lo and die. It would only be worth asking for tp/lo if jailor skews it in town's favour by the first couple of days. Otherwise it changes nothing.

That's highly unlikely. If jailor ain't making a fuss for tp/lo (and assuming there's only 1 other tp/lo claim, which is usually inves), then that's only 1 player which mafia knows they shouldn't attack. The odds of them hitting jailor may happen, but it's the minority of all games. He can always ask for tp/lo if he jails tp/lo and he trusts them. He doesn't have to reveal right away, but maybe several days later when it's obvi he can whisper them anytime. If he jails TI, he can get info from TI as well as claim info, to work out who tp/lo are anyway. So it's not like jailor can't get tp/lo protection. It's just that they don't have to ask for it n1.

Yes, I agree with that but it rarely happens.Yeah. In games where I've been maf though, the town with the silent jailor has been the strongest lmao.

Neat.

I guess that also depends on whether you like VFR, and whether Jailor is actually active (the point of revealing is so townies can whisper you their roles, hoping BMer doesn't exist, and so you can lead the town on lynches if Mayor isn't out).

Jailing TP/LO also takes time and if he purposefully jails one to ask for help he's wasting a chance at a potential evil. If he doesn't get lucky then he'll just be without TP/LO, and of course, knowing who to trust is also no easy task.

Honestly there's just not so much of an established meta around 1300, I feel. People vaguely know that Jailor revealing d1 is called an OP strategy by some people, but after they reveal they don't really know what to do.

Haha, you seem clearly in the jailor-reveal camp. Let's agree to disagree I guess we all have our different playing styles and strategies, thanks for sharing your reasons why you think it's good and I hope your games go well for you with that strategy.

also by asking for TP/LO day1, the LO will be able to confirm the TP roles, which he can whisper to jailor, giving jailor 3-4 confirmed townies straight off the bat, (jailor,LO,TP,RT TP) 5 or 6 if NK and maf scored a non LO/TP townie kill, having 5 or 6 townies out of 9 confirmed by day 2 is a huge advantage for town.

danger would be WW will hit you n2, but die to BG, or arso will douse you n1, but he will be seen by LO, but if the NK is SK, town have a huge advantage

What if there's no LO? (sometimes happens)
Forger/janitor could also visit jailor those nights and claim tp btw.

I've had that happen one game. Arso visited jailor and claimed bg the whole way through. Inves wasn't able to prove wrong, esp as he had doused the tp roles at some point so they all showed up as bg/arso/gf. And gf was still active in that game. We lynched through like, 2 tps before we lost due to arso/maf majority.

I feel like town has a huge advantage regardless of jailor play when NK is sk. Sk is seriously underpowered compared to other roles.