VFR Discussion

[EgyptFalcon]

There seems to be a wide gap in the players of Town of Salem -- those that believe VFR works for town, and those that don't. Personally, I have come to think that VFR is absolutely effective in role lists with limited claim space. This includes most Custom, Ranked, and especially Classic. Basically, the smaller the claim space, the more effective VFR is. It does pretty much nothing for town in All Any.

How have I reached this conclusion? Well we can take VFR and claim spaces to their extremes and see what happens. Suppose there was a Role List where every single role was unique and different (I know there aren't that many unique roles, but let's just suppose for a moment). Now, the total opposite of VFR would be complete silence in the chat and only writing in your will. This would obviously let evils win by picking off town one by one. As we transition from one extreme to the other, we get silence except for major investigations like Sheriff finding Mafia. And always, what is the first thing asked in response? What are the claims for both sides, naturally. This is because the only way to resolve disputes effectively is to ask for roles. Now, when we get to the other extreme, the ultra-VFR match. Every day lasts indefinitely and everyone claims openly and shares every result they make. What does this accomplish? It puts every dispute in a category. If there are 5 evils, there will only be 5 disputes possible if the evils spread out their counter-claims perfectly. That means that however many roles are left are confirmed town and every result they announce is entirely true. And then all focus can be put on resolving these 5 disputes with the help of the confirmed town members. If there is a single mislynch, it is known immediately who to jail/shoot/lynch the next day. At the same time, it makes any single error in an evil will immediately lynchable.

But EgyptFalcon, you might say, doesn't that let the mafia know who to kill and who to keep alive? Yes, it does. But that benefit for the mafia is insignificant in comparison to the fact that town can coordinate openly, target investigations correctly, and put pressure on mafia to keep perfectly accurate wills. Now there exists some line between Classic and All Any where VFR no longer becomes a useful strategy. I would say it is much closer to the All Any amount of claim space than it is to Classic. VFR is still very effective in putting disputes into categories in Ranked.

Think about it this way -- if you are mafia, would you rather a day last 30 seconds or 10 minutes? If it doesn't really matter, then VFR isn't that great of a strategy. But if it is in mafia's best interests to bog down the conversation and inhibit the discussion, then VFR is a good strategy for town.

[kyuss420]

exactly.....mafia can only kill 1 town per night, if they out themselves doing it because it solves a dispute, then town get that majority gap, straight back. Sheriff finds maf, maf has a counter claim, sheriff dies, you know who to lynch, and even with the death, thats 1 less role mafia can claim.

Now, when you play harder modes like VIP, in coven, roles like sheriff and town support are expendable. If the coven kill you, thats a night wasted. Also not claiming early puts a big red target on you, from the vigilante and causes mislynches later on when you get cc'ed by GA or pirate.

At the end of the day EgyptFalcon, you are preaching to a bunch of All Any players who occasionaly play role list modes. They wont change their behaviour according to the mode theyve selected, they just play how they usually play. I bought coven because of that reason, but the problem still exists (not as bad as classic tho with no talking or claiming for 3 days). I mean, ive gone back to classic and been lynched day 2 for claiming and giving info, because apparently, as town, voting and claiming doesnt exist before day 4, (thats apparently a mafia/exe tactic). People just dont understand the majority gap, how much time it takes before they lose majority, how many nights mafia need to win. i mean starting disputes when maf need 1 or 2 days to get majority, and waiting those days for proof, is a guarenteed loss, especially if you have a TK, you can lynch one and kill the other if inno.

in classic, Town just seem happy to get randomly picked off, until late game, when theres a 1-2 day majority gap, then its time to panic and follow mafias fake leads. Only info sharing is from wills....sheriff finds maf n2, says nothing for 2 more days, until he has to prove himself, or you read about it in his will XD

[JoltikIsDubby]

sheriff finds maf n2, says nothing for 2 more days, until he has to prove himself, or you read about it in his will XD

People in classic don't keep wills lmfao

There's something I've learned from this game. Mafia don't like to inhibit discussion and things like that, they would always prefer to lay low and hope they don't get called out, regardless of what gamemode you're playing. They would prefer to get called out because of their actions, not because someone randomly asked them what their roles are, and I think that's why everyone hates VFR so much: it makes it very arduous to play as mafia because you need to keep track of claims, have your own claim ready, push on people (preferably not your teammates), etc. not to mention you need your whole team to do this, otherwise it puts you at a massive af disadvantage. And this is supposed to be a game, not a method of torture. So people would rather take the "lay low and don't get called out" versus the "claim early and risk getting called out right that moment" method, and VFR hinders with the former because it requires people in a completely random order to claim. I've heard some people say countering VFR is easy if you're running it, but I've tried that and it doesn't work, at least not anymore. Town will notice if you try to start VFR anywhere other than 1. Often times, I've even seen town vote you up for starting VFR, and that's pretty counterproductive if I do say so myself. So to answer the question of "as a mafia, would you rather have a day last 30 seconds or 10 minutes?", I can see waaaaay more people choosing the former.

I think I can definitely see gamemode being a constant. Like, it fucking pisses me off when people are VFRing in an all any game because it can literally do nothing but hurt town. But they still do it because that's what they've been taught with in ranked, so they just feel like it'll work in all any, and people just refuse to understand that VFR is for diminishing claimspace, not for whatever the hell they're doing. I believe they think "VFR works in every mode because it forces evils to claim" even if everyone can be anything in all any, and there is literally infinite claimspace unless there's confirmed roles (like, someone dies to any Trapper, therefore there is a confirmed Trapper. You get transported, therefore there is a confirmed Trans/Hypno). Like, if the Jailor gets voted up and claims Jailor, chances are they'll be dead the next morning because the evils now know that he's Jailor. The thing that really sucks, though, is those people won't stop VFRing in all any, even if they lose every single game, until someone points it out to them that it doesn't work in that specific gamemode. Works in ranked, sure, but it's not a universal strategy.

[kyuss420]

''it makes it very arduous to play as mafia because you need to keep track of claims, have your own claim ready, push on people (preferably not your teammates), etc. not to mention you need your whole team to do this''

Yup, thats why I bought Coven, the only way to win against the pros there is to do just that, becuase thats exactly what the townies are doing. I mean, if you cant keep track of claims, prioritise your targets, and have a legit claim ready, you will lose. The only way town can win, is by claiming early and giving info to get a lynch. Not claiming makes you sus, or gets you lynched for being useless anyway.

I wonder how those guys will go in a match where the whole town has claimed by day 3.... good luck laying low when youre the only one without a claim, and all the roles have been filled with no counter claims. Town doesnt have to find the evils to win, they just have to know who the other townies are

[Descender]

We have had enough of these. They disappeared for a reason.

[EgyptFalcon]

We have had enough of these. They disappeared for a reason.

Maybe not everyone's been on these forums for the past two years.

[Descender]

I joined town of salem in 2016, not the forums. My first post was august this year and that was an appeal. My first proper post was Sep 14, 2018. that is 2 and a half months ago. Also 1 it was day before you joined.

[SillyPantsJackson]

There seems to be a wide gap in the players of Town of Salem -- those that believe VFR works for town, and those that don't.

I’m going to go ahead and stop you right there.
The real debate is over those that think VFR utterly ruins the game, and those that don’t.
It’s obvious, as you demonstrate, that Town WR will soar using this strategy, but then what would be the point of playing?

[Descender]

It reveals town to mafia, mafia can CC a role, it doesn't work.

[JoltikIsDubby]

It reveals town to mafia, mafia can CC a role, it doesn't work.

It really doesn't work like that because mafia almost never have the balls to CC a role. I'm speaking from experience, 95% of mafia will only claim if they get voted up or asked by someone who whispers them.

There seems to be a wide gap in the players of Town of Salem -- those that believe VFR works for town, and those that don't.

I’m going to go ahead and stop you right there.
The real debate is over those that think VFR utterly ruins the game, and those that don’t.
It’s obvious, as you demonstrate, that Town WR will soar using this strategy, but then what would be the point of playing?

100% true

[kyuss420]

It reveals town to mafia, mafia can CC a role, it doesn't work.

mafia gets shot by vig that night or jailed and exed by jailor that night or gets lynched the following day for claiming a role that cant possibly exist due to the role list.

Point being, it also reveals town to town, confirming RT slots, TI slots and TP slots, preventing TKs from misfiring and Jailors from exeing innos, Also giving TIs better targets to check. As I stated above, you dont need to find the maf, they stand out with flashing beacons once youve found all the town.

[Kombinator1991]

In my experience VFR heavy games are easy town wins. Mafia often get exposed by simply not voting on each other, or voting inno. Also it forces everyone to early claims creating the impossible situations to resolve. Not to mention, that being open let certain OP combos go. Such as bg/doc protecting each other.