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Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:12 am
by ProjectSuperBoy
In ranked, only.

How many times do we have to make it clear that Ranked is worthless and nobody should care about it?

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:51 pm
by ChiefPatar
ProjectSuperBoy wrote:No, ret CAN be detrimental to town. If they bring somebody back at the wrong moment they have squandered an opportunity that could be game changing later.

"Squandering an opportunity" is not the same as being detrimental. You're conflating using an ability in a way that isn't a peak efficiency with using an ability to the town's harm.

ProjectSuperBoy wrote: Let's say they bring back jailor n2, but bg/doc are already dead. Jailor simply dies again.
But, if ret were to wait and bring back jailor when the evils have already been identified, jailor just became that much more likely to be effective rather than just get killed immediately again after being brought back. So, yeah, it can definitely hurt town's chances of winning.

I don't understand this "if TP is dead don't use your revive argument." Like you're assuming that none of the TI's are lookout, none of the RT's are TP or Lookout, but at the same time you're assuming that you will be lucky enough not to be selected by mafia until late game? Like you're logic assumes both the worst odds and the best odds at the same time.

For those reading this thread. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Even the most inefficient revive is a good revive. Gaining ELO isn't about playing to win that one super odd-ball game, its about playing for consistency.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:14 pm
by ProjectSuperBoy
ChiefPatar wrote:
ProjectSuperBoy wrote:No, ret CAN be detrimental to town. If they bring somebody back at the wrong moment they have squandered an opportunity that could be game changing later.

"Squandering an opportunity" is not the same as being detrimental. You're conflating using an ability in a way that isn't a peak efficiency with using an ability to the town's harm.

Yeah, it is. The opportunity cost of using your revive when it isn't going to help you win is definitely being detrimental. Your conflating doing your role at all with being strategic.

ProjectSuperBoy wrote: Let's say they bring back jailor n2, but bg/doc are already dead. Jailor simply dies again.
But, if ret were to wait and bring back jailor when the evils have already been identified, jailor just became that much more likely to be effective rather than just get killed immediately again after being brought back. So, yeah, it can definitely hurt town's chances of winning.

I don't understand this "if TP is dead don't use your revive argument." Like you're assuming that none of the TI's are lookout, none of the RT's are TP or Lookout, but at the same time you're assuming that you will be lucky enough not to be selected by mafia until late game? Like you're logic assumes both the worst odds and the best odds at the same time.

For those reading this thread. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Even the most inefficient revive is a good revive. Gaining ELO isn't about playing to win that one super odd-ball game, its about playing for consistency.


You are clearly a ranked fanboy. Unfortunately for you, other gamemodes exist. Your logic assumes only Ranked exists....nothing could be further from the truth.

For those reading this thread, don't let the idea that ranked supercedes everything permeate your thoughts. It is at best purported by a niche part of an already niche community. No, "even the most inefficient revive"...nothing, ret should be just as strategic as any other role. Bullshitting around and reviving just because you can isn't good gameplay. Nobody cares about gaining ELO, if you do you can listen to what this crazy Ranked fanboy is talking about, but, in general, don't just play to put someone back in the game. Play the hand you are dealt, never revive just because someone else tells you you should. Play your own game.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:55 am
by ChiefPatar
ProjectSuperBoy wrote:You are clearly a ranked fanboy. Unfortunately for you, other gamemodes exist. Your logic assumes only Ranked exists....nothing could be further from the truth.

No doubt strategy might be different in other game modes. However, looking back at some of the other comments you’ve made in this thread, you seem to be specifically referencing game’s with only one TP role slot:
    ProjectSuperBoy wrote:Absolutely wrong. Especially when the role in question is a town protective, if you have no way of keeping that person alive you need to account for the fact that you could be bringing someone back just for them to die again the next night.

    ProjectSuperBoy wrote:Let's say they bring back jailor n2, but bg/doc are already dead. Jailor simply dies again.
So you’re referencing a game mode with only one TP slot, but you’re not talking about ranked…? It almost seems as if you were originally talking about ranked and now you’re pivoting because others in this thread are disagreeing with you. Granted I don’t own the coven expansion so I’m not familiar with all the game modes.

ProjectSuperBoy wrote: Nobody cares about gaining ELO, if you do you can listen to what this crazy Ranked fanboy is talking about, but, in general, don't just play to put someone back in the game. Play the hand you are dealt, never revive just because someone else tells you you should. Play your own game.

I’m not saying people should only play ranked, I’m just sharing what playstyle has worked best for me in my own experience playing in ranked. If people don’t want to play ranked or aren’t concerned with maximizing their win rate they don’t need to take my advice too seriously. People can enjoy the game how they like.

But by the same logic it’s not fair for you to go around disparaging people for preferring ranked just because you have a different preference. If you want to offer strategies for other game modes I’m sure other readers will appreciate it. However, you’re saying that the people offering strategy for ranked-mode are giving bad strategy but you’re also saying that you were never talking about ranked strategy in this first place. This seems counterproductive, if not also contradictory.

ProjectSuperBoy wrote: It is at best purported by a niche part of an already niche community.

…And yet you’ve taken this thread so personally that you call me and other commenters disparaging names rather than just clarifying what other game-mode you’re referring to. How disappointing.

I think I’m done replying to this thread. Strategic discussion is for helping players perform better. I’ve given my take on how to best play Ret, I’m not going to respond just to defend myself from personal attacks

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:00 am
by BasicFourLife
Chief, ignore Project. Don’t waste your time on him.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:48 pm
by ProjectSuperBoy
ChiefPatar wrote:No doubt strategy might be different in other game modes. However, looking back at some of the other comments you’ve made in this thread, you seem to be specifically referencing game’s with only one TP role slot:

I haven't specifically referenced anything because we are talking about specific game modes. If you want to talk about each individual variation that could possibly occur, then we would have to run through an infinite or near infinite amount of scenarios.


ProjectSuperBoy wrote:Let's say they bring back jailor n2, but bg/doc are already dead. Jailor simply dies again.
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So you’re referencing a game mode with only one TP slot, but you’re not talking about ranked…? It almost seems as if you were originally talking about ranked and now you’re pivoting because others in this thread are disagreeing with you. Granted I don’t own the coven expansion so I’m not familiar with all the game modes.

I am not talking about ranked. No, I was never talking about ranked to begin with because OP does not say "should I have done this....in ranked". I'm not pivoting, however, people are being obnoxious with the way they are disagreeing.

But by the same logic it’s not fair for you to go around disparaging people for preferring ranked just because you have a different preference. If you want to offer strategies for other game modes I’m sure other readers will appreciate it. However, you’re saying that the people offering strategy for ranked-mode are giving bad strategy but you’re also saying that you were never talking about ranked strategy in this first place. This seems counterproductive, if not also contradictory.

We aren't disparaging people for "preferring" ranked. Make sure you know what's happening before making outrageous claims. What's happening here is that people are responding to him with Ranked-specific answers and leaving it at that, which gives him the wrong idea. EVERYONE should be offering strategies for other game modes because he did not ask specifically about Ranked. I would probably say that the people offering ranked-specific strategies are giving bad strategies, but I am recognizing my own inexperience in that area and not speaking on it. However, the way they are being phrased isn't helpful either.

ProjectSuperBoy wrote: It is at best purported by a niche part of an already niche community.

…And yet you’ve taken this thread so personally that you call me and other commenters disparaging names rather than just clarifying what other game-mode you’re referring to. How disappointing.

I think I’m done replying to this thread. Strategic discussion is for helping players perform better. I’ve given my take on how to best play Ret, I’m not going to respond just to defend myself from personal attacks


I haven't called anyone any names, nor have I taken this personally. Again, grasp what is happening before being so uptight.

Good, stop replying then. However, in my experience when people say that they almost never stop, so I'm sure I'll be seeing you soon. You can defend yourself from perceived personal attacks all you want, it's desperate, bordering on shameful, but that's your prerogative.


The point here is people shouldn't be deliberately giving him bad advice. Which has been done consistently.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:57 pm
by chitownmvp01
Marulken wrote:Quick rundown:
I roll as retri. N1, BG dies. Fine, I'll hold off for a few rounds to see if a more important role dies. N2 I get shot by a vig who for some reason found me sus. I get mad. Some more people die and call me a retard for not reviving the BG when I had the chance. I tried to argue that saving my ability for more important roles was a better strat, but they stood their ground.

So for my question: as a retri, should I revive whoever ASAP?


You should always revive the first town member that dies (if 2 town member die N1, revive the more powerful role) even if it's a Medium. Numbers are extremely important and if you get killed while waiting for a more powerful town role to die, then nobody gets revived. I only give exception to this if the dead town member is known to be a gamethrower or a dumb player.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:04 pm
by ProjectSuperBoy
No.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:05 am
by chitownmvp01
ProjectSuperBoy wrote:No.


I hope you never roll Retributionist if I'm town with you in a game. You have the wrong approach. Correct approach below:

chitownmvp01 wrote:
Marulken wrote:Quick rundown:
I roll as retri. N1, BG dies. Fine, I'll hold off for a few rounds to see if a more important role dies. N2 I get shot by a vig who for some reason found me sus. I get mad. Some more people die and call me a retard for not reviving the BG when I had the chance. I tried to argue that saving my ability for more important roles was a better strat, but they stood their ground.

So for my question: as a retri, should I revive whoever ASAP?


You should always revive the first town member that dies (if 2 town member die N1, revive the more powerful role) even if it's a Medium. Numbers are extremely important and if you get killed while waiting for a more powerful town role to die, then nobody gets revived. I only give exception to this if the dead town member is known to be a gamethrower or a dumb player.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:46 am
by spelerthomas
Again, it depends on where you play. If you play ranked, revive the first opportunity. If it's ranked practise or classic, wait a bit.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:17 am
by ProjectSuperBoy
chitownmvp01 wrote:I hope you never roll Retributionist if I'm town with you in a game. You have the wrong approach. Correct approach below:


I was just thinking the same thing about you. Your strategy is likely to result in town losing a lot faster.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:03 am
by BasicFourLife
ProjectSuperBoy wrote:
chitownmvp01 wrote:I hope you never roll Retributionist if I'm town with you in a game. You have the wrong approach. Correct approach below:


I was just thinking the same thing about you. Your strategy is likely to result in town losing a lot faster.

Reviving the first dead person means that Town's chances of winning go above +85%.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:12 am
by Helicooler
Sometimes an early revive can destroy the game, but in the case with bg you should always bring them back, as bg has a bullet proof vest and has lower chances of instantly dying, and a doc could whisper the confirmed bg and create the op doc-bg duo. It really depends on the full situation sometimes, but with what little I have got here I would saying you should of. Then again, that is my opinion.

Still, did the vigilante really think it was a good idea to randomly shoot?

Edit-sorry for the double post, it glitched out for some reason.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:34 pm
by SecondBest
Similar thing happened to me recently as Ret: Vet dies N1 (I was also jailed N1 and claimed Ret to jailor). N2 comes around and I decide to wait for someone "more important", like jailor himself or maybe TP, to rez. So I don't rez Vet. N3 comes along and jailor execs me no questions asked.

Entire town blamed me for not reviving first townie. I get that rezzing early helps confirm + gives extra votes, and yes Vet is a powerful role, but at the same time, if town is ahead, why not wait for Jailor to die? It's by far the most important role.

I think I probably would have ended up rezzing the Vet on N3 if jailor didn't jail me, but still, this idea that Ret should rez immediately is just a meta I can't really get behind. Maybe if it's an SK game and things move quicker, but if not, your impact late game will be greater if you can pull it off.

I see both sides to the argument, but the "rez n2 always" crowd refuses to budge on their ideas.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:54 am
by BasicFourLife
SecondBest wrote:Similar thing happened to me recently as Ret: Vet dies N1 (I was also jailed N1 and claimed Ret to jailor). N2 comes around and I decide to wait for someone "more important", like jailor himself or maybe TP, to rez. So I don't rez Vet. N3 comes along and jailor execs me no questions asked.

Entire town blamed me for not reviving first townie. I get that rezzing early helps confirm + gives extra votes, and yes Vet is a powerful role, but at the same time, if town is ahead, why not wait for Jailor to die? It's by far the most important role.

I think I probably would have ended up rezzing the Vet on N3 if jailor didn't jail me, but still, this idea that Ret should rez immediately is just a meta I can't really get behind. Maybe if it's an SK game and things move quicker, but if not, your impact late game will be greater if you can pull it off.

I see both sides to the argument, but the "rez n2 always" crowd refuses to budge on their ideas.

its because youre bad, if you dont rez the first person in Ranked thats blant out gamethrowing unless its a thrower or a Vig in Witch games

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:57 am
by kyuss420
what more important role is there to wait for, than a TP? And that more important role will probly sooner without TP....

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:20 pm
by Aetherflux
Yea, I'd say so.

BG can potentially 1 for 1 again.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:05 am
by Fritan
People who wait with the rez are too focused on their own personal glory, wanting to be the hero who saves the day, and therefore miss the big picture: this is a team game. The extra day that you buy town is one extra night of TI/TS/Jailor activity but now with more confirmed roles.

Read ”The Art of War” people! A superior team with a superior strategy will create a very satisfying, but not ”exciting” game. If you want to win, then it is much better to play in a way that ensures that no heroes are needed instead of trying to be one. If you want to be a hero, then don’t cry when people who want to win call you out.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:02 am
by JoltikIsDubby
Lemondude617 wrote:Hell, I don't care if I revive a medium or an escort!

Why are so many people so mean to escort lol, most of my mafia games where we got close to majority (about a day or two) were foiled because of an escort.

And I don't get why so many people are willing to rezz mediums. You do realize that dead mediums can seance, confirming if there's any more mediums AND any non-flipped roles that appeared. It's not as fool-proof as ret, but can still be handy in cases. No need to rezz mediums, just wait for another town to die.

I'm a risk-taker, so when I'm playing ranked or VIP or something (in all any, I'll always rezz the first person even if it's med just because it's too unpredictable of a mode), whether or not I rezz N2 really just depends on the role I'm rezzing, how strong the player is (I once rezzed a MLed sheriff because she had a lot of good reads on people and looked like she knew what the fuck she was doing in a town full of 5 IQs), what the town thinks of me (did I claim ret? If yes, I better rezz tonight), and sometimes just how I feel like playing. Waiting has been really beneficial in some cases where I've been able to rezz a jailor or something like that. I haven't always successfully rezzed after N2, but I never regret it when it works out.

In the OP's scenario, I would've rezzed the BG just because it's a really strong role. And if I knew someone was openly SRing me but I didn't know their role, I'd probably be paranoid enough to rezz that night.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:17 am
by BasicFourLife
JoltikIsDubby wrote:
Lemondude617 wrote:Hell, I don't care if I revive a medium or an escort!

Why are so many people so mean to escort lol, most of my mafia games where we got close to majority (about a day or two) were foiled because of an escort.

And I don't get why so many people are willing to rezz mediums. You do realize that dead mediums can seance, confirming if there's any more mediums AND any non-flipped roles that appeared. It's not as fool-proof as ret, but can still be handy in cases. No need to rezz mediums, just wait for another town to die.

I'm a gamethrower, so when I'm playing ranked or VIP or something (in all any, I'll always rezz the first person even if it's med just because it's too unpredictable of a mode), whether or not I rezz N2 really just depends on the role I'm rezzing, how strong the player is (I once rezzed a MLed sheriff because she had a lot of good reads on people and looked like she knew what the fuck she was doing in a town full of 5 IQs), what the town thinks of me (did I claim ret? If yes, I better rezz tonight), and sometimes just how I feel like playing. Waiting has been really beneficial in some cases where I've been able to rezz a jailor or something like that. I haven't always successfully rezzed after N2, but I never regret it when it works out.

In the OP's scenario, I would've rezzed the BG just because it's a really strong role. And if I knew someone was openly SRing me but I didn't know their role, I'd probably be paranoid enough to rezz that night.

ftfy

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:33 am
by Chemist1422
BasicFourLife wrote:
JoltikIsDubby wrote:
Lemondude617 wrote:Hell, I don't care if I revive a medium or an escort!

Why are so many people so mean to escort lol, most of my mafia games where we got close to majority (about a day or two) were foiled because of an escort.

And I don't get why so many people are willing to rezz mediums. You do realize that dead mediums can seance, confirming if there's any more mediums AND any non-flipped roles that appeared. It's not as fool-proof as ret, but can still be handy in cases. No need to rezz mediums, just wait for another town to die.

I'm a gamethrower, so when I'm playing ranked or VIP or something (in all any, I'll always rezz the first person even if it's med just because it's too unpredictable of a mode), whether or not I rezz N2 really just depends on the role I'm rezzing, how strong the player is (I once rezzed a MLed sheriff because she had a lot of good reads on people and looked like she knew what the fuck she was doing in a town full of 5 IQs), what the town thinks of me (did I claim ret? If yes, I better rezz tonight), and sometimes just how I feel like playing. Waiting has been really beneficial in some cases where I've been able to rezz a jailor or something like that. I haven't always successfully rezzed after N2, but I never regret it when it works out.

In the OP's scenario, I would've rezzed the BG just because it's a really strong role. And if I knew someone was openly SRing me but I didn't know their role, I'd probably be paranoid enough to rezz that night.

ftfy


Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:24 pm
by spelerthomas
I think I've said this before, but the thread is old, so let me repeat myself again.
In a ranked practise or classic game it's OK to wait with ressing. If a bad role dies or player was very stupid it's good to wait. That having said, TP is a very good role to have, so even in ranked practise or classic, it's probably still the best play to res the bg.

Re: Should I have revived the BG?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:32 pm
by ProjectSuperBoy
I honestly think it comes down to the player making a judgment call as to which is the best way to go.