Is VFR ever fair?

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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:19 pm

dyaomaster wrote:The only problem is you have to get a lot better to use VFR as non-Town than how good you have to get to use VFR as Town.


I assume this is referring to a non-Town attempting to initiate a VFR?

Since it would not be difficult at all for a non-Town to manipulate an already existing VFR idea to their advantage. The "uninformed majority" will more often than not VFR someone for petty reasons such as the first person on the role list or the person with the worst name. Which means it would take no effort at all to either swing the target to someone else or bandwagon causing a successful mislynch.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby chitownmvp01 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:18 am

I think VFR is fair. I think the town and scum win rates are close to even with VFR occurs, at least from my experiences. From my experiences, town loses at least 80% of the time when VFR doesn’t occur as passive towns who wait for TIs to come out with info often end up doing nothing until it’s too late.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:07 am

chitownmvp01 wrote:I think VFR is fair. I think the town and scum win rates are close to even with VFR occurs, at least from my experiences. From my experiences, town loses at least 80% of the time when VFR doesn’t occur as passive towns who wait for TIs to come out with info often end up doing nothing until it’s too late.

That’s wrong especially the part where “Town and Scum WRs are close to even with VFR,” multiple statistics I’ve seen all prove that Town has somewhere 75%-90% WR.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby patience0 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:57 am

The problem with VFR is that it's pretty much necessary if Town gets unlucky and loses a lot of their majority very quickly, which means that they have to hang suspicious players in order to stay ahead of the evils. This is especially true if the investigatives have no leads, and its almost required if there is a Janitor in play.

VFR is unfairly favorable towards town if done right. As unfortunate as it is, it's Town's best shot at winning when they have nothing else to go on, so it's here to stay given the current state of the game.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby chitownmvp01 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:58 am

BasicFourLife wrote:
chitownmvp01 wrote:I think VFR is fair. I think the town and scum win rates are close to even with VFR occurs, at least from my experiences. From my experiences, town loses at least 80% of the time when VFR doesn’t occur as passive towns who wait for TIs to come out with info often end up doing nothing until it’s too late.

That’s wrong especially the part where “Town and Scum WRs are close to even with VFR,” multiple statistics I’ve seen all prove that Town has somewhere 75%-90% WR.


Well I'm just biased from my experiences then. In games I've played, town has not as often as you're saying when VFRing.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Yummysht » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:43 pm

Vfr is not random hanging. When you so vfr, you can learn roles and counter claims.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Circi » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:11 pm

If you can't find ways to play mind games with VFR you are seriously lacking in creativity. In fact it makes the game more fun in that aspect. If you're good you will be able to easily create a good will and make town trust you more. A silent town where everyone relies on TIs to get info is, in my opinion, what's ruining the fun. Not VFR. In VFR you get to apply many scum reading skills as town and are forced to actually be active as an evil (instead of just lurking which most evils do).
'Fair' is relative. VFR is a smart tactic for town. Is it 'unfair' that some people are smart enough to use a strategic tactic?
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby SirClevelandBrown » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:24 am

Opposing vfr is stupid. For many reasons
-It helps clear out ambiguous suspicions
-It forces bads to lie, and often, it's pretty obvious
-Not claiming a role on stand or lying is gamethrowing anyways.
-''fun'' is subjective, townies who refuse to cooperate in vfr is what's dumb.
-Making complaining threads is stupid, don't like it, close the game.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:29 pm

Yummysht wrote:Vfr is not random hanging. When you so vfr, you can learn roles and counter claims.


The thing is that it very rarely happens this way. Every time I have seen VFR used there is a 75% likelihood that it will just be a random lynch.
In fact, I have only seen revealed Mayor be voted unanimously innocent 1 time as a result of VFR.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby YFYDB » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:15 am

Well, i think VFR is a noobs' strategy. When you are a townie and new on the ranked, you probably don't know good strategies, so you use the easiest. In many games there are some weapons, which are powerful, but never used by pro. VFR is our noobish weapon. When i see, that one player wants to make VFR, i find him a noob.


BUT VFR must be used properly.
There are many noobs, that i honestly abhor and wish they are banned, who VFR only people with names, which the noobies don't like. This is really insular, obtuse, used by inepts and so on, so on. I used to name myself "Kill the Mayor". I was always lynched, even when i was a confirmed townie. Once i was really mad, because insular witch had made me lose, so i named myself "Witch Hunter". I got the role of VH. I was vfred and lynched D2, i claimed VH, they didn't care, lynched me. There was a retri, he didn't revive me, even though he was never roleblocked/witched. Vampires won, they had no chance to win.

So newbies, if you read it. IF YOU VFR SOMEONE, DO IT FAIR. NEVER LYNCH SOMEONE BECAUSE OF HIS NAME.
I think it's the biggest mistake, that is made by people vfring. VFR is now a verb and a noun.

Summarizing:
Using VFR when you are a newbie is ok, but when you want to be known as pro it isn't.
VFR works only, when you use it correctly. Use it to all players in the game starting from the most suspicious. I mean someone who was jailed and no maf kills and so on.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby dyaomaster » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:47 pm

YFYDB wrote:Well, i think VFR is a noobs' strategy. When you are a townie and new on the ranked, you probably don't know good strategies, so you use the easiest. In many games there are some weapons, which are powerful, but never used by pro. VFR is our noobish weapon. When i see, that one player wants to make VFR, i find him a noob.


BUT VFR must be used properly.
There are many noobs, that i honestly abhor and wish they are banned, who VFR only people with names, which the noobies don't like. This is really insular, obtuse, used by inepts and so on, so on. I used to name myself "Kill the Mayor". I was always lynched, even when i was a confirmed townie. Once i was really mad, because insular witch had made me lose, so i named myself "Witch Hunter". I got the role of VH. I was vfred and lynched D2, i claimed VH, they didn't care, lynched me. There was a retri, he didn't revive me, even though he was never roleblocked/witched. Vampires won, they had no chance to win.

So newbies, if you read it. IF YOU VFR SOMEONE, DO IT FAIR. NEVER LYNCH SOMEONE BECAUSE OF HIS NAME.
I think it's the biggest mistake, that is made by people vfring. VFR is now a verb and a noun.

Summarizing:
Using VFR when you are a newbie is ok, but when you want to be known as pro it isn't.
VFR works only, when you use it correctly. Use it to all players in the game starting from the most suspicious. I mean someone who was jailed and no maf kills and so on.


That sounds like random lynching.
Honestly, if someone is completely new and has the completely wrong idea on how to play already cemented in their head, they’re probably going to call random lynching VFR even when it isn’t.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby YFYDB » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:37 pm

Dyaomaster, well, i must admit, you are right. Random lynching is not exactly VFR.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby DrZero11 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:40 pm

VFR is just a bad stratergy that gets town members randomly voted up and for every town they inno, mafia get a new target for the night.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:42 pm

DrZero11 wrote:VFR is just a bad stratergy that gets town members randomly voted up and for every town they inno, mafia get a new target for the night.

Everyone is a PR anyways for Town so why does that matter
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby 0verki11 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:25 am

VFR is fair up until around 2400 elo then it becomes almost impossibile as leaders of vfr should be Jailor, Mayor, Trans, TK or revived targets.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Gobln » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:02 pm

0verki11 wrote:VFR is fair up until around 2400 elo then it becomes almost impossibile as leaders of vfr should be Jailor, Mayor, Trans, TK or revived targets.

???

Do you mean VFR is fair because, at lower elos, Godfathers and other evil roles are leading the VFR?

VFR isn't really about who is "leading" it. I'd say that's pretty much irrelevant.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby TheDebil » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:55 am

VFR is good for towns with bad ti roles ,like 2 spies for example. or else nothing would happen and mafia/ nk would kill off town. honestly, a few good mafia claims can lead to mislynches and screw town. of course, if mafia is bad, they will get lynched too. it really depends.

if you hate VFR so much , i assume you ended up in the team that had dumber players. keep chuggin along, eventually you will get lucky.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Gobln » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:33 am

TheDebil wrote:VFR is good for towns with bad ti roles ,like 2 spies for example. or else nothing would happen and mafia/ nk would kill off town. honestly, a few good mafia claims can lead to mislynches and screw town. of course, if mafia is bad, they will get lynched too. it really depends.

if you hate VFR so much , i assume you ended up in the team that had dumber players. keep chuggin along, eventually you will get lucky.

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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby lemonader666 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:35 am

You wanna stop VFR? Make it so that there can only be 1 trial per day.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby BasicFourLife » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:47 am

lemonader666 wrote:You wanna stop VFR? Make it so that there can only be 1 trial per day.

:approvethink:
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:10 pm

Limiting the number of trials per day even further is an interesting idea and one that could definitely be explored further.

Three is not an exorbitant amount at all though.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Helicooler » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:55 am

It can be unbalanced each way, depending on how it is handled.

(for example, all town revealed, mafia knows who to kill or mafia doesn't handle the situation well and get wiped off the game)
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby BasicFourLife » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:34 pm

Helicooler wrote:It can be unbalanced each way, depending on how it is handled.

(for example, all town revealed, mafia knows who to kill or mafia doesn't handle the situation well and get wiped off the game)

Everyone is a PR. It makes no difference. All Town roles should reveal Day 2 anyways for a pretty much guaranteed win.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:24 pm

Helicooler wrote:It can be unbalanced each way, depending on how it is handled. This is true of every aspect of the game. It is also not inherently a detractor.

(for example, all town revealed, mafia knows who to kill or mafia doesn't handle the situation well and get wiped off the game)


Of course we could do this, but it would suck the life out of this game. When you hear "it is day 2, too early for a role call", it is precisely for this reason. When you enter this game you agree to certain unwritten roles. Everyone just flat out revealing would take the mystery and deception away from the game and fill it with very little fun indeed. For town it is of course the ultimate strategy as they would win probably 99% of the time. As it stands Town has an abnormally high W.R. already so they don't need this extra advantage.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby dyaomaster » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:57 pm

Tharok wrote:
Helicooler wrote:It can be unbalanced each way, depending on how it is handled. This is true of every aspect of the game. It is also not inherently a detractor.

(for example, all town revealed, mafia knows who to kill or mafia doesn't handle the situation well and get wiped off the game)


Of course we could do this, but it would suck the life out of this game. When you hear "it is day 2, too early for a role call", it is precisely for this reason. When you enter this game you agree to certain unwritten roles. Everyone just flat out revealing would take the mystery and deception away from the game and fill it with very little fun indeed. For town it is of course the ultimate strategy as they would win probably 99% of the time. As it stands Town has an abnormally high W.R. already so they don't need this extra advantage.


Which is why you barely see VFR outside of high ELO; the majority of people there derive more enjoyment from winning than playing. In normal games, the normal players participating play in order to play a game (Also the majority of them don’t understand VFR anyway but that’s another topic).
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