Is VFR ever fair?

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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby kosmo16 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:26 am

I can share strategies to counter vfr, but they are hard to pull off, because require charisma and good teamwork.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:30 am

kosmo16 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:If you have ever been in a game with 15 very good and very experienced players with thousands of games. Having 5/9 knowns is often at D3/4 and it is gg Town won end of story. Games are often solved D2 or D3.


Yeah, Town is way too overpowered especially with meta's like the D1 and the VFR meta. Honestly it isn't even the two meta's themselves that are the problem, it's the sheer confirmability of majority of town roles and it's atrocious.


Not really. I mentioned games are solved D2 or D3, but you can rarely see vfr, because evils can easily counter it. Games are cancerous, but evils can win.

You can't say that the confirmability of nearly every role (especially TS) is good for the game.


No, but it doesn't matter that 6 Town are all confirmed, when there are 6 evils who are all confirmed as well.

Yeah but there's a problem if roles can confirm themselves easily (excluding Mayor). I personally want players to have their alignment tells off how they play instead of counting roles and getting a massclaim ya know? I am probably butchering the wording here
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby JacksonVirgo » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:31 am

kosmo16 wrote:I can share strategies to counter vfr, but they are hard to pull off, because require charisma and good teamwork.

I mean yeah but also even if there are strategies around something like this, it shouldn't be this difficult as mafia to outclaim town.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby kosmo16 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:47 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:I can share strategies to counter vfr, but they are hard to pull off, because require charisma and good teamwork.

I mean yeah but also even if there are strategies around something like this, it shouldn't be this difficult as mafia to outclaim town.


It is not when you do it early enough. There are 2 popular (well, I haven't seen them for a while) strategies to counter vfr:
1. Investigation flood
2. MyLo play

1. Imagine there is D2 and suddenly you have 7 TI claims and 3 of them found Mafia. Do you vfr? No. If you think it is easy to distinguish false and real one. No it is not. Mislynch usually means losing.

2. Simply, when you vfr and found doctor claim or sth hard to confirm D2 you suddenly have 5 ccs, Inv who says guy is not doc but jester or vig/vet. If you lynch the guy, you probably can find all evils, but it is already too late. Or if you get Ret claim to stand then there is always cc and 2 Investigators claiming they are not med/ret/jan but something different. 1 guilty or 2 abstains mean lynch.

Chat is always cancer.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby gorilla578 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:22 pm

Spoiler:
kosmo16 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:I can share strategies to counter vfr, but they are hard to pull off, because require charisma and good teamwork.

I mean yeah but also even if there are strategies around something like this, it shouldn't be this difficult as mafia to outclaim town.


It is not when you do it early enough. There are 2 popular (well, I haven't seen them for a while) strategies to counter vfr:
1. Investigation flood
2. MyLo play

1. Imagine there is D2 and suddenly you have 7 TI claims and 3 of them found Mafia. Do you vfr? No. If you think it is easy to distinguish false and real one. No it is not. Mislynch usually means losing.

2. Simply, when you vfr and found doctor claim or sth hard to confirm D2 you suddenly have 5 ccs, Inv who says guy is not doc but jester or vig/vet. If you lynch the guy, you probably can find all evils, but it is already too late. Or if you get Ret claim to stand then there is always cc and 2 Investigators claiming they are not med/ret/jan but something different. 1 guilty or 2 abstains mean lynch.

Chat is always cancer.


With the Jailor meta, many Townies have grown complacent and some ballsy non Town can pretty much fuck up Town. I once lost because a Framer claimed Lookout and confirmed his buddies and ended up mislynching the real TPs (myself included) and Town just sat there petrified.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby kosmo16 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:31 pm

gorilla578 wrote: Spoiler:
kosmo16 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:I can share strategies to counter vfr, but they are hard to pull off, because require charisma and good teamwork.

I mean yeah but also even if there are strategies around something like this, it shouldn't be this difficult as mafia to outclaim town.


It is not when you do it early enough. There are 2 popular (well, I haven't seen them for a while) strategies to counter vfr:
1. Investigation flood
2. MyLo play

1. Imagine there is D2 and suddenly you have 7 TI claims and 3 of them found Mafia. Do you vfr? No. If you think it is easy to distinguish false and real one. No it is not. Mislynch usually means losing.

2. Simply, when you vfr and found doctor claim or sth hard to confirm D2 you suddenly have 5 ccs, Inv who says guy is not doc but jester or vig/vet. If you lynch the guy, you probably can find all evils, but it is already too late. Or if you get Ret claim to stand then there is always cc and 2 Investigators claiming they are not med/ret/jan but something different. 1 guilty or 2 abstains mean lynch.

Chat is always cancer.


With the Jailor meta, many Townies have grown complacent and some ballsy non Town can pretty much fuck up Town. I once lost because a Framer claimed Lookout and confirmed his buddies and ended up mislynching the real TPs (myself included) and Town just sat there petrified.


Yes, that's the thing. Teamwork. Transporter claim from Mafia can be super tricky, when all evils confirm the guy. Especially as forger, if there is a town guy who pasted their will on chat like
a sheriff you can easily sneak in transported claim to his will to be confirmed by Town also.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby kosmo16 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:40 pm

I remember my best forgery in the game. It was when Lookout could see Jailor's visit. When I was jailed N1 as Forger I claimed Lookout. Jailor asked me to watch Player X unless he dies N1 then watch Player Y. The problem was that there was only one player in that game who could ask for that and I knew even a design of his will. So I made a perfect forgery on Jailor. Name, role, jailed people were correct. I just pasted that N2 the guy had wrong will and should be executed. Spy confirmed double visit (mafioso + consort), guy had no chance. Was instantly lynched I think he was ret.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby SparkingJay » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:51 pm

kosmo16 wrote:I remember my best forgery in the game. It was when Lookout could see Jailor's visit. When I was jailed N1 as Forger I claimed Lookout. Jailor asked me to watch Player X unless he dies N1 then watch Player Y. The problem was that there was only one player in that game who could ask for that and I knew even a design of his will. So I made a perfect forgery on Jailor. Name, role, jailed people were correct. I just pasted that N2 the guy had wrong will and should be executed. Spy confirmed double visit (mafioso + consort), guy had no chance. Was instantly lynched I think he was ret.

Lmao and here I am wasting my forges to look like TP.

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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby kosmo16 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:26 pm

kosmo16 wrote:
gorilla578 wrote: Spoiler:
kosmo16 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
kosmo16 wrote:I can share strategies to counter vfr, but they are hard to pull off, because require charisma and good teamwork.

I mean yeah but also even if there are strategies around something like this, it shouldn't be this difficult as mafia to outclaim town.


It is not when you do it early enough. There are 2 popular (well, I haven't seen them for a while) strategies to counter vfr:
1. Investigation flood
2. MyLo play

1. Imagine there is D2 and suddenly you have 7 TI claims and 3 of them found Mafia. Do you vfr? No. If you think it is easy to distinguish false and real one. No it is not. Mislynch usually means losing.

2. Simply, when you vfr and found doctor claim or sth hard to confirm D2 you suddenly have 5 ccs, Inv who says guy is not doc but jester or vig/vet. If you lynch the guy, you probably can find all evils, but it is already too late. Or if you get Ret claim to stand then there is always cc and 2 Investigators claiming they are not med/ret/jan but something different. 1 guilty or 2 abstains mean lynch.

Chat is always cancer.


With the Jailor meta, many Townies have grown complacent and some ballsy non Town can pretty much fuck up Town. I once lost because a Framer claimed Lookout and confirmed his buddies and ended up mislynching the real TPs (myself included) and Town just sat there petrified.


Yes, that's the thing. Teamwork. Transporter claim from Mafia can be super tricky, when all evils confirm the guy. Especially as forger, if there is a town guy who pasted their will on chat like
a sheriff you can easily sneak in transported claim to his will to be confirmed by Town also.


Neither confirmability of roles and vfr is a problem. It's all about players. I can guarantee you that 4 players who are good as evils can just destroy the Town, even in high elo games.

One example what kind of players are in low master tier (around 2100). So there was a Town member, a trolling Veteran who claimed Escort, chnaged claim to Veteran on stand. People asked a question. Anyone cc? They would 100% lynch the guy with a cc. If you know how to play Mafia you instantly cc as Vig. But neither of my teammates ccd. I couldnt because I claimed Inv in jail N1. So vet was confirmed instead of lynched. And these kind of people are complaing that Town is too strong.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:35 pm

kyuss420 wrote:
OK Boomer,

So If I was evil and remained silent for 4 days while killing off all the TIs, there would be absolutely no reason to ask me for my role. And If you did ask, and I said ''Its too early'' or ''why me'' It would be totally unfair to vote me to force a claim.

Thats pretty much what youre saying....

Im actually very interested in what you consider ''the deductive part'' of the game, as you think reading wills and ticking off a role list is meta stuff. I mean, to be able to deduce anything, you need information, and you seem very against pushing people for information.

Seems you just give up as town, as soon as the TIs are dead, or hope that TKs or TPs randomly kill the remaining evils. But I guess you classic noobs arent used to fast games with evils scoring 2 or 3 kills per night, where a seemingly winning majority can swing around in 1 night.


I did not mean to touch a nerve. Perhaps this discussion is too much for you? Not to mention attempting to misframe my argument despite it being right there for everybody to read for themselves.

You are talking about a very specific scenario, and not one which we have been discussing. You insinuate that you know all the TIs and town knows you are the one killing them. Furthermore, nobody has ever said "its too early" on Day 5 and "why me" wouldn't be said either because your reasoning would be "remained silent for 4 days", even if that really does not prove anything you can convince bandwagoners easily that way. A medium can remain silent the whole game because the dead aren't giving them any info to work with, but in your eyes that would make them guilty.

Nobody said anything about reading wills. You're talking about people posting wills while they are still alive, and if they don't do so in whatever format you deem appropriate, then that makes them guilty. The conversation is about VFR, you continue to try and make the conversation about things that are completely off topic or were said by nobody. I don't think you have a grasp on what VFR actually entails.

You are also very clearly talking about Ranked matches only. I couldn't care less about those and I am not talking about it from that perspective. Ranked is set up so that Town is supposed to win a majority of the matches. What you are talking about does not happen there. Throw as many internet meme insults up as you want, it does not bolster your argument in anyway, it actually just makes it look weaker.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:50 am

Tharok wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:
OK Boomer,

So If I was evil and remained silent for 4 days while killing off all the TIs, there would be absolutely no reason to ask me for my role. And If you did ask, and I said ''Its too early'' or ''why me'' It would be totally unfair to vote me to force a claim.

Thats pretty much what youre saying....

Im actually very interested in what you consider ''the deductive part'' of the game, as you think reading wills and ticking off a role list is meta stuff. I mean, to be able to deduce anything, you need information, and you seem very against pushing people for information.

Seems you just give up as town, as soon as the TIs are dead, or hope that TKs or TPs randomly kill the remaining evils. But I guess you classic noobs arent used to fast games with evils scoring 2 or 3 kills per night, where a seemingly winning majority can swing around in 1 night.


I did not mean to touch a nerve. Perhaps this discussion is too much for you? Not to mention attempting to misframe my argument despite it being right there for everybody to read for themselves.

You are talking about a very specific scenario, and not one which we have been discussing. You insinuate that you know all the TIs and town knows you are the one killing them. Furthermore, nobody has ever said "its too early" on Day 5 and "why me" wouldn't be said either because your reasoning would be "remained silent for 4 days", even if that really does not prove anything you can convince bandwagoners easily that way. A medium can remain silent the whole game because the dead aren't giving them any info to work with, but in your eyes that would make them guilty.

Nobody said anything about reading wills. You're talking about people posting wills while they are still alive, and if they don't do so in whatever format you deem appropriate, then that makes them guilty. The conversation is about VFR, you continue to try and make the conversation about things that are completely off topic or were said by nobody. I don't think you have a grasp on what VFR actually entails.

You are also very clearly talking about Ranked matches only. I couldn't care less about those and I am not talking about it from that perspective. Ranked is set up so that Town is supposed to win a majority of the matches. What you are talking about does not happen there. Throw as many internet meme insults up as you want, it does not bolster your argument in anyway, it actually just makes it look weaker.


errr youre the one doing everything youre accussing me of doing, Also your putting a lot of words in my mouth with your own insinuating and now youre saying you agree with VFR on day 5 if someone has remained silent for the entire game

you still didnt answer my question of what the ''deductive part'' of the game actually is, considering giving any information via wills is considered a ''crutch play''. I guess youre one of those players who shuts the fuck up in mayor game, instead of relaying the information you have so that he can do his job and vfr the correct people... then gets salty as fuck because the mayor pushed on the wrong guy (although you gave him no information to work with becuase ''Im too important and mafia will target me over the LO or TPs'')

Or youre one of the guys who refuses to vote anyone when maf need 1 kill to gain to gain majority because the jailor/vig should have enough info to pick the correct evil.

Point being VFR exists because people dont give information they have early enough in the game. You give info, you gain trust. You give none you gain suspicion - simple as that. Suspicious people get pushed on, trusted people dont. Its a game of deduction that requires information, if you have to force the information to make the correct plays, then so be it... whats unfair is playing with players who refuse to give the info they have, which will win you game, until its too late. Anyone who can count knows most games are won or lost by day 4.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby LewisFaisal » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:41 pm

DemonicKraken wrote:No.

Might as well ask others opinion on this. But no. You could end up revealing important roles, and if you get lucky, thats hardly fair for the mafia.

And the worst part is, its everywhere. It makes games not even fun anymore. TOS is supposed to be a game of playing mind games and figuring out claims. Not a game where you mindlessly vote people up so they give role.

disclaimer: this was mostly a vent thread but srsly vfr is somewhat broken




lolololololololololol

dude VFR favors town, so town uses it. Just have a solid claim, kill strategically, and you'll be good. VFR games are brilliant as Mafia (NK is another story). There's so much crap you can pull, so much mislynches you can play, so many forms.

VoteForRole is rewarding to players who try. Even if you lose as Mafia, in a VFR game, as long as you actually tried, you'll find yourself saying "gg" and actually meaning it. I know I do.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby EqsyLootz » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:19 pm

I like VFR. Only issue is outting TK/TP. many scum take a day or 2 To think of a claim so quickly pressuring someone into claiming and posting a will may cause them to crack.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Algus » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:38 pm

im gonna call you all out right now

"i dont wanna talk or try or claim and i still wanna win"

"town should literally never vote anyone because it could be mafia and it could be meeeee"

"it's so easy for town to actually play the game and claim their roles and share information"

literally "im too lazy to do fucking anything but i still deserve to win"

you can claim w/e you want. you do it too late and you're gonna die, because you're mafia and you're claiming late

i have no fucking sympathy for people that complain about getting voted up for a role and not even attempting to defend themselves

and you know what? just because you're mafia doesn't mean you have a free pass to be a lazy fuck. you shouldve had your claim and a will for that claim done and made long before you were in a position to die.


you're never going to get anywhere in this game by complaining rather than making any effort to play better

if you're here right now complaining welcome to the absolute peak of your performance in ToS cuz it's certainly not going up from here
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby LewisFaisal » Sat May 16, 2020 3:15 pm

YFYDB wrote:Well, i think VFR is a noobs' strategy. When you are a townie and new on the ranked, you probably don't know good strategies, so you use the easiest. In many games there are some weapons, which are powerful, but never used by pro. VFR is our noobish weapon. When i see, that one player wants to make VFR, i find him a noob.


BUT VFR must be used properly.
There are many noobs, that i honestly abhor and wish they are banned, who VFR only people with names, which the noobies don't like. This is really insular, obtuse, used by inepts and so on, so on. I used to name myself "Kill the Mayor". I was always lynched, even when i was a confirmed townie. Once i was really mad, because insular witch had made me lose, so i named myself "Witch Hunter". I got the role of VH. I was vfred and lynched D2, i claimed VH, they didn't care, lynched me. There was a retri, he didn't revive me, even though he was never roleblocked/witched. Vampires won, they had no chance to win.

So newbies, if you read it. IF YOU VFR SOMEONE, DO IT FAIR. NEVER LYNCH SOMEONE BECAUSE OF HIS NAME.
I think it's the biggest mistake, that is made by people vfring. VFR is now a verb and a noun.

Summarizing:
Using VFR when you are a newbie is ok, but when you want to be known as pro it isn't.
VFR works only, when you use it correctly. Use it to all players in the game starting from the most suspicious. I mean someone who was jailed and no maf kills and so on.



Wait what? VFR is a noob's strategy? What?

Do you not get that "VFR" is probably the strongest tool town has to dispose? They're given 3 trials for a reason.



"When you are a townie and new on the ranked, you probably don't know good strategies, so you use the easiest." Good luck "vfring" day 2 without disguising it with "John Willard is Quiet, what's his role?" in anything below gold, or Ranked Practice. If you're anything other than Jailor or Mayor, you're getting hung for VFRing at <1400 elo.

And even then, "VFR" isn't easy at all. I climbed from lower Gold to upper Platinum by sheeping townies as evils when townies thought they knew how to VFR but really didn't. It's EXTREMELY easy to lead a VFR as evil against townies "new on the ranked". VFR isn't "easy" one bit.

"In many games there are some weapons, which are powerful, but never used by pro." This is just false.
"VFR is our noobish weapon. When i see, that one player wants to make VFR, i find him a noob." In this case, I honestly think you're the noob for thinking VFR = Bad Player.

"There are many noobs, that i honestly abhor and wish they are banned, who VFR only people with names, which the noobies don't like. This is really insular, obtuse, used by inepts and so on, so on. I used to name myself "Kill the Mayor". I was always lynched, even when i was a confirmed townie. Once i was really mad, because insular witch had made me lose, so i named myself "Witch Hunter". I got the role of VH. I was vfred and lynched D2, i claimed VH, they didn't care, lynched me. There was a retri, he didn't revive me, even though he was never roleblocked/witched. Vampires won, they had no chance to win."

That's called Random Lynching, not VFRing. They are two VERY different things.

"Using VFR when you are a newbie is ok, but when you want to be known as pro it isn't." I don't know a single "pro" [to me that's basically anyone master elo, with 2000 being minor and 3000 being major] who thinks using VFR is objectively bad - and that's simply because it isn't [any "pros" above 2000 elo feel free to call me out on this].

"VFR works only, when you use it correctly. Use it to all players in the game starting from the most suspicious." well yeah that's kinda obvious
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Transcender » Mon May 18, 2020 4:57 am

vfr doesnt work, it kinda works if you do it going 1 to 15, but still it doesnt work as well as people think
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Matty89190 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:15 am

God this thread was a funny read.

I'm not even a very high ELO player and yet I still understand the basic principle of ToS: the main advantage maf has over town (aside from the night kill) is their knowledge of who's who. Put differently, town wins by confirming roles.

Getting as many claims as possible as quickly as possible is the best way for town to start piecing together who's good and who's bad, and VFR is a logical way to do this. It gives you and idea of what roles are in the game and locks evils into a claim early in the hopes of tripping up evils.

This doesn't mean it screws the mafia. Have a good claim, be ready to claim early, and CC when it's relevant, and so long as you have no inconsistencies, you'll be fine. VFR isn't about hanging people, it's about getting claims. Give a claim, and everyone's happy.

VFR is not a "noob's strategy" - if you go to YouTube and watch Masters gameplay you'll see them using it in almost every game.

If 75% of your VFRs end in hangings, you're not doing VFR, you're random lynching.

The idea of "forcing important roles to claim" is ridiculous and sounds like something you'd hear from a Classic player. Most if not all townies should be ready to claim D2 if necessary. I can see the argument for hiding TP and LO if you're playing the meta, and hiding a Vig in a Witch game is obviously a good idea, but other than that, just claim. Evils will kill someone whether half the Town's outed or not, and despite the fact you think your half-baked Sheriff will is the most important thing in the game, the vast majority of Town roles are on a relatively similar power level.

I'll say it again: Town wins by confirming Townies. Your ability to bug one person's house each night isn't the biggest asset you give the Town. Your claim is, as it takes a TI space.

So to conclude, no VFR isn't dumb, it isn't a noob's tactic, it isn't unfair on evils. If you as an evil can't deal with VFR, then Ranked simply isn't for you. Fabricating a good claim and playing it convincingly is playing scum 101, and if that doesn't hold up under early game VFR, you're not doing it right.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby dolphina » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:44 am

Matty89190 wrote:God this thread was a funny read.

I'm not even a very high ELO player and yet I still understand the basic principle of ToS: the main advantage maf has over town (aside from the night kill) is their knowledge of who's who. Put differently, town wins by confirming roles.

Getting as many claims as possible as quickly as possible is the best way for town to start piecing together who's good and who's bad, and VFR is a logical way to do this. It gives you and idea of what roles are in the game and locks evils into a claim early in the hopes of tripping up evils.

This doesn't mean it screws the mafia. Have a good claim, be ready to claim early, and CC when it's relevant, and so long as you have no inconsistencies, you'll be fine. VFR isn't about hanging people, it's about getting claims. Give a claim, and everyone's happy.

VFR is not a "noob's strategy" - if you go to YouTube and watch Masters gameplay you'll see them using it in almost every game.

If 75% of your VFRs end in hangings, you're not doing VFR, you're random lynching.

The idea of "forcing important roles to claim" is ridiculous and sounds like something you'd hear from a Classic player. Most if not all townies should be ready to claim D2 if necessary. I can see the argument for hiding TP and LO if you're playing the meta, and hiding a Vig in a Witch game is obviously a good idea, but other than that, just claim. Evils will kill someone whether half the Town's outed or not, and despite the fact you think your half-baked Sheriff will is the most important thing in the game, the vast majority of Town roles are on a relatively similar power level.

I'll say it again: Town wins by confirming Townies. Your ability to bug one person's house each night isn't the biggest asset you give the Town. Your claim is, as it takes a TI space.

So to conclude, no VFR isn't dumb, it isn't a noob's tactic, it isn't unfair on evils. If you as an evil can't deal with VFR, then Ranked simply isn't for you. Fabricating a good claim and playing it convincingly is playing scum 101, and if that doesn't hold up under early game VFR, you're not doing it right.


I agree.

I cannot tell you about the upper elo, as I have been stuck in elo hell for a while (~270 Ranked games), but I can tell you that vfr has helped me win a lot of games, Ranked or not.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:38 am

Matty89190 wrote: Evils will kill someone whether half the Town's outed or not, and despite the fact you think your half-baked Sheriff will is the most important thing in the game, the vast majority of Town roles are on a relatively similar power level.



I lol'ed so hard

the dudes account is 3 months old, and he has a better understanding of the games concept, than guys with active accounts since 2016
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Matty89190 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:47 am

kyuss420 wrote:I lol'ed so hard

the dudes account is 3 months old, and he has a better understanding of the games concept, than guys with active accounts since 2016


Ahaha thanks. I'm still relatively new but quarantine has meant I've racked up plenty of hours and I've got some decent experience at mid-level ELOs, so I like to think I don't completely suck. I just found this thread funny cos VFR is a very consistently reliable tactic.

Imagine it like this folks:
Mafia kills a townie N1, and let's go really nuts and say it's an SK game, so we're two townies down.

D2, there's a full role call; everyone in the game claims, and using wills and whatnot, town figures out who the evils are. They hang one that day (SK if they're smart, but I'm being nice to evils in this scenario so let's say they get an RM).

Jailor jails and executes another that night (again, we're favouring evils so let's say he's unlucky and kills NE) and mafia, with a clear road map of who to kill since they know every role, takes out TP. SK hits the LO. The next day, the mafioso is hung, and we're sitting at 5 townies, 2 mafia and an SK.

Let's say based on voting and claims, the town now know who's who, so the SK is executed that night, while with TP and LO dead, mafia take a risk and hit the jailor successfully. The next day, it's 4 townies against two mafia, and from there, the town holds a stable majority and hangs them day by day.


This was obviously an unlucky scenario for town. Having a vig could have helped thin evils quicker, as could having been smarter with hangings and jailings. Having a different evil instead of SK would also have helped as town would have been under less pressure due to lower KPN. Escorts could have also been useful to prevent late game kills entirely, and having more TP under RT could have saved the jailor. But with all of that, the D2 role call still got town the win. In fact, the SK could have lived another night, maintaining the double KPN, and town would still have won by holding maj.

Now obviously, this isn't how real games go. If nothing else, there simply isn't enough time on D2 to scrutinise 15 claims and wills. But the principle here is the very same one behind VFR. Voting up 3 people and scrutinising their claims each day helps town quickly build a library of who's who, and in the event they do find an obvious evil (for example, a Vet claim with a confirmed CC), they've already been voted up, so it's quick and easy to hang them.

That said, a major part of VFRing is innoing someone once they've claimed. As others have stated, it's NOT random lynching. It's simply a way to force claims. In cases where someone posts a decent will while they're still being voted up, VFR often moves on without them ever being pushed to the stand.

"But if having roles guarantees town a win even with all the disadvantages you mentioned above, how is it possibly fair for evils!?!?"

FAKE. CLAIM. WELL.
VFR is about getting a claim. Claim well, and they'll move on. Claim particularly well, and you'll be considered confirmed and ignored til endgame. Use existing claims to piece together a legit LO will, or co-ordinate with your fellow evils to fake being escort or transporter. It doesn't even have to be that complicated, just pick a role to fake and play it like you would if you were a townie.

The key problem for the evils in the scenario I gave was that town was able to figure them out based on claims. If the evils claim well, this is no longer possible and town loses a lot of the edge VFR gives them.

There are even other advantages of VFR for evils. There are no two ways about that fact evils need mislynches to win a game, and VFR does half the battle, getting someone quickly voted to the stand. From there, you have various options to cast doubt on their claim. Claiming there are errors in their will, CCing them, etc. VFR can help you drop vital townie numbers.

What's my point here? VFR is used because it works, and does so very efficiently at that. Town of Salem is a game of an informed minority against an uninformed majority. By becoming informed, the majority takes away the chief advantage the minority has. And even if, in outing yourself, you become a target for mafia and die that night, your death 100% confirms a role. This is the key part, as I mentioned in my previous comment: a townie's biggest asset to the game is their claimspace, and town wins by confirming that.

That being said, VFR isn't unfair. It's a method primarily for gathering information, not killing, and so it's easily countered by a solid claim, something even a mediocre player should be fairly capable of. Furthermore, using VFR opens up other opportunities for evils, and so while it's a very efficient tactic, it offers possible benefits to both sides of the game, making it a balanced way to play IMO.

I'm not even really sure why I wrote a second post, but I find this a fun topic of debate and I thought giving the scenario might help illustrate why the benefits of confirming roles far outweigh the drawbacks of "giving evils targets". I dunno. VFR is good, guys.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Transcender » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:05 am

kyuss420 wrote:
Matty89190 wrote: Evils will kill someone whether half the Town's outed or not, and despite the fact you think your half-baked Sheriff will is the most important thing in the game, the vast majority of Town roles are on a relatively similar power level.



I lol'ed so hard

the dudes account is 3 months old, and he has a better understanding of the games concept, than guys with active accounts since 2016

He doesnt understand that bumping is annoying though
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby Tharok » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:08 am

Because it is not.
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Re: Is VFR ever fair?

Postby CrimsonKatana » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:42 am

I didn't read this thread but yeah vfr is fair
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