kosmo16 wrote:JacksonVirgo wrote:kosmo16 wrote:JacksonVirgo wrote:kosmo16 wrote:If you have ever been in a game with 15 very good and very experienced players with thousands of games. Having 5/9 knowns is often at D3/4 and it is gg Town won end of story. Games are often solved D2 or D3.
Yeah, Town is way too overpowered especially with meta's like the D1 and the VFR meta. Honestly it isn't even the two meta's themselves that are the problem, it's the sheer confirmability of majority of town roles and it's atrocious.
Not really. I mentioned games are solved D2 or D3, but you can rarely see vfr, because evils can easily counter it. Games are cancerous, but evils can win.
You can't say that the confirmability of nearly every role (especially TS) is good for the game.
No, but it doesn't matter that 6 Town are all confirmed, when there are 6 evils who are all confirmed as well.
kosmo16 wrote:I can share strategies to counter vfr, but they are hard to pull off, because require charisma and good teamwork.
JacksonVirgo wrote:kosmo16 wrote:I can share strategies to counter vfr, but they are hard to pull off, because require charisma and good teamwork.
I mean yeah but also even if there are strategies around something like this, it shouldn't be this difficult as mafia to outclaim town.
gorilla578 wrote: Spoiler:
With the Jailor meta, many Townies have grown complacent and some ballsy non Town can pretty much fuck up Town. I once lost because a Framer claimed Lookout and confirmed his buddies and ended up mislynching the real TPs (myself included) and Town just sat there petrified.
kosmo16 wrote:I remember my best forgery in the game. It was when Lookout could see Jailor's visit. When I was jailed N1 as Forger I claimed Lookout. Jailor asked me to watch Player X unless he dies N1 then watch Player Y. The problem was that there was only one player in that game who could ask for that and I knew even a design of his will. So I made a perfect forgery on Jailor. Name, role, jailed people were correct. I just pasted that N2 the guy had wrong will and should be executed. Spy confirmed double visit (mafioso + consort), guy had no chance. Was instantly lynched I think he was ret.
kosmo16 wrote:gorilla578 wrote: Spoiler:
With the Jailor meta, many Townies have grown complacent and some ballsy non Town can pretty much fuck up Town. I once lost because a Framer claimed Lookout and confirmed his buddies and ended up mislynching the real TPs (myself included) and Town just sat there petrified.
Yes, that's the thing. Teamwork. Transporter claim from Mafia can be super tricky, when all evils confirm the guy. Especially as forger, if there is a town guy who pasted their will on chat like
a sheriff you can easily sneak in transported claim to his will to be confirmed by Town also.
kyuss420 wrote:
OK Boomer,
So If I was evil and remained silent for 4 days while killing off all the TIs, there would be absolutely no reason to ask me for my role. And If you did ask, and I said ''Its too early'' or ''why me'' It would be totally unfair to vote me to force a claim.
Thats pretty much what youre saying....
Im actually very interested in what you consider ''the deductive part'' of the game, as you think reading wills and ticking off a role list is meta stuff. I mean, to be able to deduce anything, you need information, and you seem very against pushing people for information.
Seems you just give up as town, as soon as the TIs are dead, or hope that TKs or TPs randomly kill the remaining evils. But I guess you classic noobs arent used to fast games with evils scoring 2 or 3 kills per night, where a seemingly winning majority can swing around in 1 night.
Firestorm wrote:"When you put a bunch of broken pieces together in the right way, suddenly they don't seem so broken anymore."
Professor Farnsworth wrote:"Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything."
Tharok wrote:kyuss420 wrote:
OK Boomer,
So If I was evil and remained silent for 4 days while killing off all the TIs, there would be absolutely no reason to ask me for my role. And If you did ask, and I said ''Its too early'' or ''why me'' It would be totally unfair to vote me to force a claim.
Thats pretty much what youre saying....
Im actually very interested in what you consider ''the deductive part'' of the game, as you think reading wills and ticking off a role list is meta stuff. I mean, to be able to deduce anything, you need information, and you seem very against pushing people for information.
Seems you just give up as town, as soon as the TIs are dead, or hope that TKs or TPs randomly kill the remaining evils. But I guess you classic noobs arent used to fast games with evils scoring 2 or 3 kills per night, where a seemingly winning majority can swing around in 1 night.
I did not mean to touch a nerve. Perhaps this discussion is too much for you? Not to mention attempting to misframe my argument despite it being right there for everybody to read for themselves.
You are talking about a very specific scenario, and not one which we have been discussing. You insinuate that you know all the TIs and town knows you are the one killing them. Furthermore, nobody has ever said "its too early" on Day 5 and "why me" wouldn't be said either because your reasoning would be "remained silent for 4 days", even if that really does not prove anything you can convince bandwagoners easily that way. A medium can remain silent the whole game because the dead aren't giving them any info to work with, but in your eyes that would make them guilty.
Nobody said anything about reading wills. You're talking about people posting wills while they are still alive, and if they don't do so in whatever format you deem appropriate, then that makes them guilty. The conversation is about VFR, you continue to try and make the conversation about things that are completely off topic or were said by nobody. I don't think you have a grasp on what VFR actually entails.
You are also very clearly talking about Ranked matches only. I couldn't care less about those and I am not talking about it from that perspective. Ranked is set up so that Town is supposed to win a majority of the matches. What you are talking about does not happen there. Throw as many internet meme insults up as you want, it does not bolster your argument in anyway, it actually just makes it look weaker.
DemonicKraken wrote:No.
Might as well ask others opinion on this. But no. You could end up revealing important roles, and if you get lucky, thats hardly fair for the mafia.
And the worst part is, its everywhere. It makes games not even fun anymore. TOS is supposed to be a game of playing mind games and figuring out claims. Not a game where you mindlessly vote people up so they give role.
disclaimer: this was mostly a vent thread but srsly vfr is somewhat broken
YFYDB wrote:Well, i think VFR is a noobs' strategy. When you are a townie and new on the ranked, you probably don't know good strategies, so you use the easiest. In many games there are some weapons, which are powerful, but never used by pro. VFR is our noobish weapon. When i see, that one player wants to make VFR, i find him a noob.
BUT VFR must be used properly.
There are many noobs, that i honestly abhor and wish they are banned, who VFR only people with names, which the noobies don't like. This is really insular, obtuse, used by inepts and so on, so on. I used to name myself "Kill the Mayor". I was always lynched, even when i was a confirmed townie. Once i was really mad, because insular witch had made me lose, so i named myself "Witch Hunter". I got the role of VH. I was vfred and lynched D2, i claimed VH, they didn't care, lynched me. There was a retri, he didn't revive me, even though he was never roleblocked/witched. Vampires won, they had no chance to win.
So newbies, if you read it. IF YOU VFR SOMEONE, DO IT FAIR. NEVER LYNCH SOMEONE BECAUSE OF HIS NAME.
I think it's the biggest mistake, that is made by people vfring. VFR is now a verb and a noun.
Summarizing:
Using VFR when you are a newbie is ok, but when you want to be known as pro it isn't.
VFR works only, when you use it correctly. Use it to all players in the game starting from the most suspicious. I mean someone who was jailed and no maf kills and so on.
Matty89190 wrote:God this thread was a funny read.
I'm not even a very high ELO player and yet I still understand the basic principle of ToS: the main advantage maf has over town (aside from the night kill) is their knowledge of who's who. Put differently, town wins by confirming roles.
Getting as many claims as possible as quickly as possible is the best way for town to start piecing together who's good and who's bad, and VFR is a logical way to do this. It gives you and idea of what roles are in the game and locks evils into a claim early in the hopes of tripping up evils.
This doesn't mean it screws the mafia. Have a good claim, be ready to claim early, and CC when it's relevant, and so long as you have no inconsistencies, you'll be fine. VFR isn't about hanging people, it's about getting claims. Give a claim, and everyone's happy.
VFR is not a "noob's strategy" - if you go to YouTube and watch Masters gameplay you'll see them using it in almost every game.
If 75% of your VFRs end in hangings, you're not doing VFR, you're random lynching.
The idea of "forcing important roles to claim" is ridiculous and sounds like something you'd hear from a Classic player. Most if not all townies should be ready to claim D2 if necessary. I can see the argument for hiding TP and LO if you're playing the meta, and hiding a Vig in a Witch game is obviously a good idea, but other than that, just claim. Evils will kill someone whether half the Town's outed or not, and despite the fact you think your half-baked Sheriff will is the most important thing in the game, the vast majority of Town roles are on a relatively similar power level.
I'll say it again: Town wins by confirming Townies. Your ability to bug one person's house each night isn't the biggest asset you give the Town. Your claim is, as it takes a TI space.
So to conclude, no VFR isn't dumb, it isn't a noob's tactic, it isn't unfair on evils. If you as an evil can't deal with VFR, then Ranked simply isn't for you. Fabricating a good claim and playing it convincingly is playing scum 101, and if that doesn't hold up under early game VFR, you're not doing it right.
Matty89190 wrote: Evils will kill someone whether half the Town's outed or not, and despite the fact you think your half-baked Sheriff will is the most important thing in the game, the vast majority of Town roles are on a relatively similar power level.
kyuss420 wrote:I lol'ed so hard
the dudes account is 3 months old, and he has a better understanding of the games concept, than guys with active accounts since 2016
kyuss420 wrote:Matty89190 wrote: Evils will kill someone whether half the Town's outed or not, and despite the fact you think your half-baked Sheriff will is the most important thing in the game, the vast majority of Town roles are on a relatively similar power level.
I lol'ed so hard
the dudes account is 3 months old, and he has a better understanding of the games concept, than guys with active accounts since 2016
Firestorm wrote:"When you put a bunch of broken pieces together in the right way, suddenly they don't seem so broken anymore."
Professor Farnsworth wrote:"Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything."
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